You can never lose your salvation!

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amadeus

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True, WITH God all things are possible, and Jesus did everything WITH God, so all became possible through Christ.....There is a reminder to us written in Revelation, where John is brought to tears, as no one in Heaven is found worthy to open the seals........But then it is revealed that Jesus is able, that He is indeed worthy.
If any other human had been or were going to be as worthy as Jesus, there surely would have been at least one other person able to open those seals ?....Wouldn't there ?
Prior to the sacrifice of Jesus no one could be worthy because all had sinned and come short. Jesus was the first one born of woman who did not sin at all so He was the only one who could be the perfectly and sinless sacrifice which was required to reopen the Way to the Tree of Life.

Also in the Book of Revelation, chapter 5 we see a sealed book. That Book is the Word of God. People could read the OT which also contained within it God's Truth, but until Jesus came and the Holy Ghost as a result was poured out on "whosoever will" the mysteries contained in that book could not be understood. The message God had sent to man remained in undecipherable types and shadows. Jesus made it possible for anyone to approach and understand God. Who could open the seven seals? Jesus indeed!

Could anyone now do what Jesus did? Someone who could fully surrender to God at all times could. Who can surrender so completely? Alone we cannot even completely surrender, but even in that God will help us:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?" Matt 7:7-11
 

Richard_oti

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Prior to the sacrifice of Jesus no one could be worthy because all had sinned and come short.

Not to impugn your fine post:

Let's not forget Noah, Job, Daniel, Elisabeth, Zacharias ...

Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Jesus was the first one born of woman who did not sin at all so He was the only one who could be the perfectly and sinless sacrifice which was required to reopen the Way to the Tree of Life.


He is also the Son. The Holy One of YHVH.


Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: ...
Mat 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them in like manner.

Mat 21:37 But afterward he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

Mat 21:38 But the husbandmen, when they saw the son, said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and take his inheritance. 39 And they took him, and cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him.
 

pia

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@amadeus .....Just wonderful......I too believe that a person who is 100% surrendered to God can and indeed should be living as Jesus lived, going about 'doing' in Him, as Jesus did 'in the Father'...............The other issue, from my perspective, was just that Jesus was sinless all the time, not just after receiving the Holy Spirit and therefore no one could be sinless as He is/was sinless, which is why only He was worthy to open the seals......At least that is how I have come to understand it, at least so far.......:)
 

Richard_oti

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@amadeus .....Just wonderful......I too believe that a person who is 100% surrendered to God can and indeed should be living as Jesus lived, going about 'doing' in Him, as Jesus did 'in the Father'...............The other issue, from my perspective, was just that Jesus was sinless all the time, not just after receiving the Holy Spirit and therefore no one could be sinless as He is/was sinless, which is why only He was worthy to open the seals......At least that is how I have come to understand it, at least so far.......:)

Nice use of "bold"! <grin>
 
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amadeus

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Not to impugn your fine post:

Let's not forget Noah, Job, Daniel, Elisabeth, Zacharias ...

Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Yes... and if we read Hebrews chapter 11 we will find more who were faithful in their walk with God, but were any of them, including Enoch who God took, worthy to be the sacrifice, the Lamb of God?

In spite of their good hearts and their great faith they had sinned:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Rom 3:23

And in spite of their good hearts and great faith they were dead to God:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"Rom 4:12

Until Jesus came there was no Life as God understood Life in man. Real continuous Life was lost within mankind when Adam and Eve sinned.

"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22

The anointing of God [the Holy Spirit] came on prophets in the OT in order to do God's work for that time. Those men were still effectively dead until Jesus brought abundant Life.

But in Jesus there was a difference for he never sinned and he was not dead while He walked among men in Israel prior to his crucifixion:

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Heb 4:15

" Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6


He is also the Son. The Holy One of YHVH.
Mat 21:33 Hear another parable: ...
Mat 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them in like manner.

Mat 21:37 But afterward he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

Mat 21:38 But the husbandmen, when they saw the son, said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and take his inheritance. 39 And they took him, and cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him.

Amen! This is what became of Jesus. His own flesh rebelled against the suffering and death which he knew was coming, but he knew it had to be as it was in his Father's plan for mankind, for you and for me. They killed him believing they had assured themselves of our own positions and power, not realizing they were accomplishing God's purpose for sending his Son...
 
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Helen

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Amadeus said:- Prior to the sacrifice of Jesus no one could be worthy because all had sinned and come short.


Not to impugn your fine post:

Let's not forget Noah, Job, Daniel, Elisabeth, Zacharias ...

Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


Noah got drunk and laid naked.
Lot was called
righteous (in Hebrews) even though he too got drunk and failed...
Abraham lied to Pharoh , and jumped ahead with Hagar ( re Sarah)

Abraham was called righteous...and we read with all these men in the OT that it was by their Faith that were made/called righteous. They "heard" from God and then acted and did what God's word spoke..they believed Him.


"And he(Abraham) believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness."

I still believe that we, in ourselves, can never be called righteous or attaint to righteousness, only in Him.

We are indeed blameless in God's eyes. Not our own good deeds or righteous works.

None are without sin...but, only in Christ... God sees us perfect, blameless and righteous.
Do you really believe any man can attain to righteousness in our own strength...however much I try hard...and we all do.
Most argue saying- " Oh but yes we can, through God's Spirit"
Well I have to say I do not believe it...every man has weaknesses or failings
within the flesh. And while we are still in this flesh of ours, and any vestige or trace of the 'old man' is still alive within us...sin will still fight for preeminence and when we are weak, tired, sick, frail... it will win.

So... Does anyone know anyone who is totally 'dead to self?
I don't.
Can you change my mind. :)





 
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Richard_oti

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Noah got drunk and laid naked.
In his tent. What had his youngest son [Ham] done to him? [Gen 9:24] Did Noah curse Canaan the son of Ham for he himself being naked? Or, for merely seeing him naked? How would Noah have known, that Ham had seen him naked? I mean, after all, let's consider the "curse", and what all it led unto for / to the Canaanites.

Would such a curse be just for Noah having gotten drunk, been naked and Ham having, let's say for the sake of argument, accidently seen Noah naked?

Since this is rather vague, is there anything anywhere else in the Scriptures which may lend understanding? [consider Leviticus 18 and 20]

<snip>

Abraham was called righteous...and we read with all these men in the OT that it was by their Faith that were made/called righteous. They "heard" from God and then acted and did what God's word spoke..they believed Him.
Basically: "God" said do, they believed, coupled that with action, they did, by which their faith was made complete. Which was accredited to them as righteousness.

Luke 18:8b ... Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

An interesting, albeit a hard question.


Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:

Romans 3:31 Do we then nullify the law by this faith?
Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.


Edit: By what is "sin" defined?

<snip>

I still believe that we, in ourselves, can never be called righteous or attaint to righteousness, only in Him.
By the Holy Spirit. Before you rebuke me, read further.


We are indeed blameless in God's eyes. Not our own good deeds or righteous works.
Let's not completely ignore though that Elisabeth and Zacharias are written of as "righteous" and "blameless".



None are without sin...but, only in Christ... God sees us perfect, blameless and righteous.
Can we be "in Him" apart from the Holy Spirit? Now you may rebuke me.


Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:


Do you really believe any man can attain to righteousness in our own strength...however much I try hard...and we all do.
In what manner were Noah, Abraham, Job, Daniel, Elisabeth and Zacharias considered righteous?


But to answer your implied question: No, I don't.

Why?

Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it

However, that does not discount that Elisabeth and Zacharias were accounted as righteous and blameless. Nor, does that discount that Noah, Job and Daniel could only save themselves by their righteousness [as accounted twice within Ezekiel].


Most argue saying- " Oh but yes we can, through God's Spirit"
Well I have to say I do not believe it...every man has weaknesses or failings within the flesh.
Indeed. In Hebrews, there is a rather striking shall we call it, warning:

Heb 12:3 For consider him that hath endured such gainsaying of sinners against himself, that ye wax not weary, fainting in your souls. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin:

Reminiscent of that which Jesus stated:

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell.


And while we are still in this flesh of ours, and any vestige or trace of the 'old man' is still alive within us...sin will still fight for preeminence and when we are weak, tired, sick, frail... it will win.
So... Does anyone know anyone who is totally 'dead to self?
I don't.
I don't either.
Most of those who "think" they are, have deceived themselves as we have all too clearly witnessed.


Can you change my mind. :)
"Prolly" no more than you could change mine. <grin>
 
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KBCid

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Read this carefully. For those who feel / believe / take comfort in continuing to sin.

1 Cor 10:1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 11Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

IF YOU are intent on not sinning God will not suffer that you are tempted beyond what you are able OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL to resist AND there will also be a way for you to ESCAPE sinning. That way will be provided by the helper.
To continue in sin is to deny the word of God and to discount the power of God to assist you in becoming righteous.

1 Peter 4:1Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh,a arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for human passions but for the will of God. 3For the time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry.

Obedience of faith gives results
God is Almighty, and that also means He can give you all the power you need to be an overcomer, but you have to want to, and you have to obey Him, which means taking up a fight against your lusts. This is called the obedience of faith, and these are the works that accompany your faith, and make it real. It means you have to hang in there. The battle may be hard and long, but God has “given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness,” (2 Peter 1:3), and He will never let you down. Believe it! Do it! Experience it!
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?” Romans 6:1-2.
If you really believe in God, and in His Son Jesus Christ, why do you still sin? There is actually no reason to do so!
If you really believe in God, why do you still sin? - ActiveChristianity
 
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Stranger

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"As long as you are doing your part" Being the operative phrase, HELLO!

The title is 'you can never lose your salvation'. Then in the first post reasons are given how you can lose your salvation. Which means the title is a lie.

To those who believe a born-again Christian can lose their salvation, when is the moment you lose it?

And, if a born-again Christian can lose their salvation, can they get it back? How? When is the moment they get it back?

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Basically: "God" said do, they believed, coupled that with action, they did, by which their faith was made complete. Which was accredited to them as righteousness.

This is not true. In (Gen. 12:1-3) God said 'do' to Abram and Abram did. (Gen. 12:4). Did Abram have faith in God at this time. Of course. But God did not choose this event as the time to declare Abram righteous. Why? Because God did not want a 'works' salvation.

So, God let Abraham get old, with Sarah, past the age of child birth. Then He gave Abraham the promise of a child being born of him though he and Sarah were too old. (Gen. 15:4-5) And Abraham believed God and God counted him righteous. (Gen. 15:6)

That is salvation by faith, not works. God refused to have Abraham saved by works.

So, you see? God did not say do, and they did, and were saved. God said He would do, they believed, and were saved.

Stranger
 

bbyrd009

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Could be taken no other way.I hope that was not anti semitic? I will not report you because even a statement as vile as that one , you have a God given right to say, because he gave free will to everyone, however, this is an abuse of that right!
i meant that Hitler claimed that too. And that is all i meant. Hence the "don't take this wrong?"
I will also not hold against you the sin of such statements toward me.
If you insist on taking it the wrong way, all you might really do here is force me to make longer, more explanatory posts; but the fact will remain that Hitler did that too, nonetheless. That makes no comment about Holocaust, or you, or even sin, wadr.
You have enough problems without me. God Bless!
ha, well which one is it? Pretty sure you can't do both here lol.
 
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bbyrd009

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@EndTimeWine ...QUOTE="EndTimeWine, post: 345186, member: 7669"saying Fight the good fight"By". 'I' did not start this but 'I' will rise to the occasion and can assure you 'I' will always win because 'I' stand on the Word of the Lord. 'I' am defending the Word and you are defending someone who speaks against it? Where is your loyalty? You must like only people who pay you accolades because you are certainly not defending the truth with your rebuttals toward 'me'. Misguided affection 'I' would say.
As for spirit flowing, It is only the Holy Spirit flowing from 'me' for it is ONLY THE WORD 'I' Uphold, not the precepts of man. God Bless! End QUOTE

ummm...Someone else comes to mind....
"I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."
i dunno about you--being a mother maybe spares you from a legalist phase?--but ya, putting away sin seems impossible, until we try to put away being too righteous lol. At least that was harder for me. And i'm still way too idealist prolly, so it is still hard for me to forgive.
 

Jay Ross

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Ezekiel 18:21-32: -
21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord God, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 "Yet you say,'The way of the Lord is not fair.' Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord God."Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord God. "Therefore turn and live!"

Have the rules changed at all? If I sin, I become a candidate for the second death unless I repent of the sins and reconcile myself with God again.

So can I lose my Salvation? The short answer is yes.

Matt 12:31-32
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.