Your Soul IS Immortal, Until...

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Aunty Jane

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You have no Idea what it's like being in the desert...
It must be a dry and lonely place for you…. :no reply: ….yet if you were a genuine Christian, you would not be in the desert…you would be in a relationship with your Christian brothers and sisters, and they would meet regularly for worship and for Bible study. (Heb 10:24-25) All would be of one mind and with no divisions or dissensions. (1 Cor 1:10) All teaching one truth…serving one God as disciples of Jesus Christ.
Yet,.. I'm not alone... I occasionally see others.... But not very often.
Occasionally you stumble across individuals who believe as you do? Yet you are not in company with a brotherhood…how is that possible? Where is it that you “occasionally see“ these “others”? On Internet forums?
Shortly after Paul's conversion from being a racist, sectarian, self-righteous, bigoted, and highly religious Pharisees to a disciple of the Lord. God led him to an Arabian desert for three years (Galatians 1: 17 -- 18). What was he doing there? Detoxing. Everything that Paul knew as a zealous Pharisee was bled out of him in the desert.
No, Paul was not “detoxing”…..but like all the other apostles, Jesus was personally teaching him and training him for a new life in the service of the God he already thought he had served….he was a very zealous man as “a Pharisee and a son of Pharisees”, but Jesus chose him for a special role….one that his education would equip him to be brought before high officials and Greek philosophers…educated men with whom he could communicate on their level.
NOTE: It took 3 years for him to over come the traditions of men
No doubt Jesus training would have addressed many traditions and teachings that were violated by the Pharisees, but Paul’s ministry was somewhat specialized, and he would be reminded of his former ways and determined to make it up to his God for all that he did wrong, with his misplaced loyalty.
You need to bleed sister.... Your full of the traditions of men! What? You think your any different from Paul... some how superior to him.... Thus obtaining the truth by just following what your told by your Church?
I was “bled” a long time ago…..I ditched Christendom in my twenties, and it took me less time to lose Christendom’s doctrines that I thought. My heart was already out of sync with everything I learned in church. I am a logical thinker, and not much was ever logical to me there. The Bible answered all my questions.
All of these groups have seminaries... Very impressive schools that support their beliefs.... Yet.... they all disagree!!
Who's right? That's the Billion dollar question!!!
Tell me when God has failed to provide teachers for his people?
When were they ever permitted to decide for themselves what was Bible truth and what wasn’t?
What did Paul say…? Hebrews 13:17..
”Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.”
Who are your “leaders”? To whom do you ‘submit’ as those appointed by God to take the lead among his people…keeping watch over their souls?

If the truth is like a diamond hidden in a pile of broken glass, then we might get a few cuts before we actually find the diamond…..but we will only find the diamond if we know what diamonds in the rough look like….and with the aid of God’s spirit, we will find the truth that “sets us free”.
You will only find the answer in the desert!!!
I prefer the oasis that God provides…there is spiritual refreshment among a faithful brotherhood. I came out of the desert because…..God led me out of there.
BTW.... Do I know you from TOL??? (Theology on Line) from long ago... Your name is sooo familiar???
No.
 

Pierac

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It must be a dry and lonely place for you…. :no reply: ….yet if you were a genuine Christian, you would not be in the desert…you would be in a relationship with your Christian brothers and sisters, and they would meet regularly for worship and for Bible study. (Heb 10:24-25) All would be of one mind and with no divisions or dissensions. (1 Cor 1:10) All teaching one truth…serving one God as disciples of Jesus Christ.

Occasionally you stumble across individuals who believe as you do? Yet you are not in company with a brotherhood…how is that possible? Where is it that you “occasionally see“ these “others”? On Internet forums?

No, Paul was not “detoxing”…..but like all the other apostles, Jesus was personally teaching him and training him for a new life in the service of the God he already thought he had served….he was a very zealous man as “a Pharisee and a son of Pharisees”, but Jesus chose him for a special role….one that his education would equip him to be brought before high officials and Greek philosophers…educated men with whom he could communicate on their level.

No doubt Jesus training would have addressed many traditions and teachings that were violated by the Pharisees, but Paul’s ministry was somewhat specialized, and he would be reminded of his former ways and determined to make it up to his God for all that he did wrong, with his misplaced loyalty.

I was “bled” a long time ago…..I ditched Christendom in my twenties, and it took me less time to lose Christendom’s doctrines that I thought. My heart was already out of sync with everything I learned in church. I am a logical thinker, and not much was ever logical to me there. The Bible answered all my questions.

Tell me when God has failed to provide teachers for his people?
When were they ever permitted to decide for themselves what was Bible truth and what wasn’t?
What did Paul say…? Hebrews 13:17..
”Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.”
Who are your “leaders”? To whom do you ‘submit’ as those appointed by God to take the lead among his people…keeping watch over their souls?

If the truth is like a diamond hidden in a pile of broken glass, then we might get a few cuts before we actually find the diamond…..but we will only find the diamond if we know what diamonds in the rough look like….and with the aid of God’s spirit, we will find the truth that “sets us free”.

I prefer the oasis that God provides…there is spiritual refreshment among a faithful brotherhood. I came out of the desert because…..God led me out of there.

No.
You define the American Christian... !!! You do not seek the truth... but Only to spit out what your told from your Church!

I'm afraid your going to here these words in your future!!!!

Mat 7:22 "Aunty Jane will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name (ie post on line) , and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you Aunty Jane; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

You claim superior knowledge and truth with your post... Yet... have YOU been appointed?

NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


No... you follow the traditions of men... You will not be among the first born... I can tell from your post!


Joh 6:39 `And this is the will of the Father who sent me, that all that He hath given to me I may not lose of it, but may raise it up in the last day;

You have not been given to him... Aunty Jane because you can't comprehend the simple word ... AND!!!!

Webster Dictionary 1828

And
AND, conj.

And is a conjunction, connective or conjoining word. It signifies that a word or part of a sentence is to be added to what precedes. Thus, give me an apple and an orange; that is, give me an apple, add or give in addition to that, an orange. John and Peter and James rode to New York, that is, John rode to New York; add or further, Peter rode to New York; add James rode to New York.

So do you think the word AND some how changed between 1828 and now? "And" and "sent" means something different to you and your traditions of men?
Joh 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

I don't fault you... As Satan sees you on the side of the road and plucks this knowleadge out your your mind before you can even begin to understand!!! (Mar 4:15)

Yet... God is Love... and you will eventually be part of the whole... but will probably miss the coming Kingdom??? You will most likely have to wait until Jesus submits to his God...

1Co 15:25 For He (Jesus) must reign until He (Jesus) has put all His (Jesus) enemies under His (Jesus) feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE (Jesus) HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS (Jesus) FEET. But when He (Jesus) says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He (Jesus) is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him (GOD). When all things are subjected to Him (GOD), then the Son Himself (Jesus) also will be subjected to the One (God) who subjected all things to Him (Jesus), so that God may be all in all.

But.... Hey
What do I know...spending years in the Desert... while you make cookies for your church group!
Paul
 
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BlessedPeace

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It must be a dry and lonely place for you…. :no reply: ….yet if you were a genuine Christian, you would not be in the desert…you would be in a relationship with your Christian brothers and sisters, and they would meet regularly for worship and for Bible study. (Heb 10:24-25) All would be of one mind and with no divisions or dissensions. (1 Cor 1:10) All teaching one truth…serving one God as disciples of Jesus Christ.

Occasionally you stumble across individuals who believe as you do? Yet you are not in company with a brotherhood…how is that possible? Where is it that you “occasionally see“ these “others”? On Internet forums?

No, Paul was not “detoxing”…..but like all the other apostles, Jesus was personally teaching him and training him for a new life in the service of the God he already thought he had served….he was a very zealous man as “a Pharisee and a son of Pharisees”, but Jesus chose him for a special role….one that his education would equip him to be brought before high officials and Greek philosophers…educated men with whom he could communicate on their level.

No doubt Jesus training would have addressed many traditions and teachings that were violated by the Pharisees, but Paul’s ministry was somewhat specialized, and he would be reminded of his former ways and determined to make it up to his God for all that he did wrong, with his misplaced loyalty.

I was “bled” a long time ago…..I ditched Christendom in my twenties, and it took me less time to lose Christendom’s doctrines that I thought. My heart was already out of sync with everything I learned in church. I am a logical thinker, and not much was ever logical to me there. The Bible answered all my questions.

Tell me when God has failed to provide teachers for his people?
When were they ever permitted to decide for themselves what was Bible truth and what wasn’t?
What did Paul say…? Hebrews 13:17..
”Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.”
Who are your “leaders”? To whom do you ‘submit’ as those appointed by God to take the lead among his people…keeping watch over their souls?

If the truth is like a diamond hidden in a pile of broken glass, then we might get a few cuts before we actually find the diamond…..but we will only find the diamond if we know what diamonds in the rough look like….and with the aid of God’s spirit, we will find the truth that “sets us free”.

I prefer the oasis that God provides…there is spiritual refreshment among a faithful brotherhood. I came out of the desert because…..God led me out of there.

No.
You may want to get a handle on your JW judgement reflex.

"If you were a genuine Christian..." And such.
 
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Aunty Jane

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You define the American Christian... !!! You do not seek the truth... but Only to spit out what your told from your Church!

I'm afraid your going to here these words in your future!!!!

Mat 7:22 "Aunty Jane will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name (ie post on line) , and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you Aunty Jane; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

You claim superior knowledge and truth with your post... Yet... have YOU been appointed?

NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


No... you follow the traditions of men... You will not be among the first born... I can tell from your post!


Joh 6:39 `And this is the will of the Father who sent me, that all that He hath given to me I may not lose of it, but may raise it up in the last day;

You have not been given to him... Aunty Jane because you can't comprehend the simple word ... AND!!!!

Webster Dictionary 1828

And
AND, conj.

And is a conjunction, connective or conjoining word. It signifies that a word or part of a sentence is to be added to what precedes. Thus, give me an apple and an orange; that is, give me an apple, add or give in addition to that, an orange. John and Peter and James rode to New York, that is, John rode to New York; add or further, Peter rode to New York; add James rode to New York.

So do you think the word AND some how changed between 1828 and now? "And" and "sent" means something different to you and your traditions of men?
Joh 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

I don't fault you... As Satan sees you on the side of the road and plucks this knowleadge out your your mind before you can even begin to understand!!! (Mar 4:15)

Yet... God is Love... and you will eventually be part of the whole... but will probably miss the coming Kingdom??? You will most likely have to wait until Jesus submits to his God...

1Co 15:25 For He (Jesus) must reign until He (Jesus) has put all His (Jesus) enemies under His (Jesus) feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE (Jesus) HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS (Jesus) FEET. But when He (Jesus) says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He (Jesus) is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him (GOD). When all things are subjected to Him (GOD), then the Son Himself (Jesus) also will be subjected to the One (God) who subjected all things to Him (Jesus), so that God may be all in all.

But.... Hey
What do I know...spending years in the Desert... while you make cookies for your church group!
Paul
You really don’t listen do you?
You accuse me of holding beliefs that I do not have…..try to pay attention.
 

Aunty Jane

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You may want to get a handle on your JW judgement reflex.

"If you were a genuine Christian..." And such.
It is a biblical judgment, and one we must all make because just calling yourself a “Christian” does not make you one. Claiming to be “born again” doesn’t mean that you are either.…especially if you cannot explain what the purpose of being “born again” actually is. Along with such an anointing, goes the knowledge of why you have been chosen.

All those “Christians” counting on what they “believe”, even if they all disagree with each other, does not fit the biblical narrative. “Believing” is something even the demons do, (James 2:18-20) so those who think that “beliefs” will save them, are laboring under a false impression. If we aren’t “doing” (action) “the will of the Father“, we will be making excuses to his appointed judge in vain…..

When Jesus said….
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’”….

Do you not see a reason for all of us to pause and ask ourselves if we are one of “them”……those who acknowledge Christ as their “Lord” but then fail to “do” what he commanded his disciples to carry out…..
Do we engage in things that he and his apostles condemned?

We all have to “know” the God we serve, and “do” as he has instructed “through” the one he “sent”. (John 17:3)
A “genuine Christian” is part of a brotherhood who all share the same truth (1 Cor1:10) but are “no part of the world”…..and these actively “do” what Christ commanded as a natural part of their everyday life. (Matt 28:19-20)

There are no shortcuts.…and no amount of justification will cancel out direct disobedience.

We get one shot to get it right with God…..and if we fail, there is no going back to change our minds about anything….God required a change of heart and that takes time…..he has given us plenty of that already.
 

BlessedPeace

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It is a biblical judgment, and one we must all make because just calling yourself a “Christian” does not make you one. Claiming to be “born again” doesn’t mean that you are either.…especially if you cannot explain what the purpose of being “born again” actually is. Along with such an anointing, goes the knowledge of why you have been chosen.

All those “Christians” counting on what they “believe”, even if they all disagree with each other, does not fit the biblical narrative. “Believing” is something even the demons do, (James 2:18-20) so those who think that “beliefs” will save them, are laboring under a false impression. If we aren’t “doing” (action) “the will of the Father“, we will be making excuses to his appointed judge in vain…..

When Jesus said….
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’”….

Do you not see a reason for all of us to pause and ask ourselves if we are one of “them”……those who acknowledge Christ as their “Lord” but then fail to “do” what he commanded his disciples to carry out…..
Do we engage in things that he and his apostles condemned?

We all have to “know” the God we serve, and “do” as he has instructed “through” the one he “sent”. (John 17:3)
A “genuine Christian” is part of a brotherhood who all share the same truth (1 Cor1:10) but are “no part of the world”…..and these actively “do” what Christ commanded as a natural part of their everyday life. (Matt 28:19-20)

There are no shortcuts.…and no amount of justification will cancel out direct disobedience.

We get one shot to get it right with God…..and if we fail, there is no going back to change our minds about anything….God required a change of heart and that takes time…..he has given us plenty of that already.
Are JW's the only true Christians?
 
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Wick Stick

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WOW.... How wrong can you be.....

Spirit
- The word spirit usually brings to mind to most a ghostly image that separates from our bodies at death and departs to either heaven or hell. This definition which most of us are so familiar with is 100% Greek philosophy. It is pure Platonism. To Greek philosophers the words "spirit" and "soul" are interchangeable, they mean the same thing. To a Jew they are vastly different.

Platonism - Believed that we must be capable of existing apart from our bodies. The flesh is evil. The body is a prison. It is bad for the soul (i.e. spirit) to be in the body. Platonism suggests the immortality of the soul, and the soul then becoming incarnate (Grolier’s Encyclopedia (GE)).

This definition of "spirit" if used, will completely change the meanings of many passages in the Bible, and lead to false conclusions. It has inherent problems right away. First, only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15-16). Second, I do not know of anyone that would dispute that judgment happens at the return of Christ. So how then can your spirit or soul go to heaven or hell at death if you have not yet been judged? This should be a clue that something is wrong with this definition of "spirit."

Let us now examine what "spirit" means to a Jew. The word "spirit" in Hebrew is "ruah" and in Greek it is "pneuma." The Jews used ruah in the same way that they used pneuma.

"Unlike the Greeks, who found dissolution of the body desirable (cf Socrates), Paul has a Jewish horror of it" (Roman Catholic New American Bible (NAB)).

Spirit - (ruah & pneuma) - Breath of life. The vital principal by which the body is animated (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (VED)).

In other words, it is the life force that God gives to people and animals that animates their bodies, which gives them life. When He takes it away their “spirit” they die.

Examples:

Psalms 104:29 -30: "When you take away their breath (ruah), they perish and return to the dust from which they came. When you send forth your breath (ruah), they are created."

Ecclesiates 12:7: "And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath (ruah) returns to God who gave it."

Psalms 33:6: "When his spirit (ruah) departs he returns to his earth; on that day his plans perish."

This understanding is critical when one interprets a verse such as Luke 23:46:

"Father, into your hands I commend my spirit;" and when he said this he breathed his last.

If you use the Greek philosophical definition as most people do, you will arrive at the conclusion that at that moment Jesus’ Greek type spirit went to heaven to be with God. This of course is not possible because in John 20:17 when Jesus was raised from the dead after three days, he appeared to Mary of Magdala and told her:

"Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father."

Jesus is clear that he has not yet been to the Father. Where has he been for three days? He has been in Sheol, the pit, the grave, the earth. Jesus himself tells us in John 12:32:

"And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."

Jesus has been dead as Scripture says of him. On the third day God resurrected him. Also, if your spirit is in heaven you are not truly dead.

Yet, if we use the Jewish definition of spirit it will make perfect sense. Jesus’ breath of life returned to the Father and he died and was in the earth for three days. There is then no conflict with John 20:17.

So the best observation comes from Jesus Himself, at His death He teaches… (Luke 23:46) And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last. Read again what Jesus said… Jesus
gave up his Spirit but not His Soul... An example that supports this is when Mary at Jesus’ tomb turned and saw Jesus. She naturally got excited and Jesus told her… John 20:17 … Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.

Do not miss this connection, Jesus gave up his Spirit to the Father at death but told Mary He had not yet ascended to the Father after His resurrection. It is clear the scriptures never teach that the soul is or has an immortal subsistence. As both Jesus’ body and soul died and went to hades! Just as Ecclesiates 12:7 teaches.
What you said all pertains to Platonism. But, there are other schools of philosophy than Platonism.

Aristotle wrote a 1000-page dissertation about the Soul. In it, he clearly separates soul and spirit and gives them distinct meanings. His definitions are far more in line with Paul than Plato.
 

Aunty Jane

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Are JW's the only true Christians?
If you go back in Bible history you will see that Jehovah has always had his witnesses…..in any court case where slander is involved, testimony from witnesses on both sides are considered before a verdict is reached….

Satan’s slander of God in the garden of Eden initiated a heavenly court case, where witnesses for God were brought forth by him in a testimony we call the Bible.

The devil’s false accusations were also recorded and systematically demolished in the eyes of the faithful….but in the eyes of the faithless, only the devil’s accusations stand.

Israel were called Jehovah’s “witnesses”. (Isa 43:10) Anyone who gave testimony in God’s behalf against the devil were also his witnesses, which included all of God’s faithful servants down through time.

Jesus himself was a witness for Jehovah…he called himself “the faithful and true witness” (Rev 3:14) so don’t get stuck on our name…it is merely a description of who we are, and what we do in obedience to the Christ who sent us out to the people to testify in God’s behalf, just as he did. (Matt 24:14)

All who will be saved, must be Jehovah’s witnesses, testifying as to the truth of the Bible and sticking to the scriptures in identifying the credentials of a true Christian.

Jesus said that he would appoint a “faithful and discreet slave” who would feed his fellow slaves their “food at the proper time” (Matt 24:45)….if we are not fed by that slave, there is only one other table serving food in the celestial ‘restaurant’…..there is only “the table of Jehovah and the table of demons”….we choose which food is more palatable to us….and by our choices we are fed. The old saying is true…”you are what you eat”…..so that applies spiritually as well as physically.

We are free to choose our own destiny according to the condition of our hearts, as seen by God.
He does not judge anyone superficially. (Isa 11:3-4) Since no one can come to the Father unless it is through the son…and no one can come to the son without an invitation from the Father (John 6:44, 65)….it is God who “draws” us to his truth if he sees a good heart, where seeds of truth can grow unimpeded by the weeds of Christendom.
 
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BlessedPeace

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What you said all pertains to Platonism. But, there are other schools of philosophy than Platonism.

Aristotle wrote a 1000-page dissertation about the Soul. In it, he clearly separates soul and spirit and gives them distinct meanings. His definitions are far more in line with Paul than Plato.
 

Pierac

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What you said all pertains to Platonism. But, there are other schools of philosophy than Platonism.

Aristotle wrote a 1000-page dissertation about the Soul. In it, he clearly separates soul and spirit and gives them distinct meanings. His definitions are far more in line with Paul than Plato.
Yea..... But your early Chruch Leaders did not follow Aristotle did they.... I will let one of the most important persons in YOUR Church history tell you were he got his Biblical understanding...

AUGUSTINE: CONFESSIONS​

Book 7 CHAPTER IX​

13. And first of all, willing to show me how thou dost "resist the proud, but give grace to the humble,"[184] and how mercifully thou hast made known to men the way of humility in that thy Word "was made flesh and dwelt among men,"[185] thou didst procure for me, through one inflated with the most monstrous pride, certain books of the Platonists, translated from Greek into Latin.[186] And therein I found, not indeed in the same words, but to the selfsame effect, enforced by many and various reasons that "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made." That which was made by him is "life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shined in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." Furthermore, I read that the soul of man, though it "bears witness to the light," yet itself "is not the light; but the Word of God, being God, is that true light that lights every man who comes into the world." And further, that "he was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."[187] But that "he came unto his own, and his own received him not. And as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believed on his name"[188]--this I did not find there.

Book 7 CHAPTER XIX

25. But I thought otherwise. I saw in our Lord Christ only a man of eminent wisdom to whom no other man could be compared--especially because he was miraculously born of a virgin--sent to set us an example of despising worldly things for the attainment of immortality, and thus exhibiting his divine care for us. Because of this, I held that he had merited his great authority as leader. But concerning the mystery contained in "the Word was made flesh," I could not even form a notion. From what I learned from what has been handed down to us in the books about him--that he ate, drank, slept, walked, rejoiced in spirit, was sad, and discoursed with his fellows--I realized that his flesh alone was not bound unto thy Word, but also that there was a bond with the human soul and body. Everyone knows this who knows the unchangeableness of thy Word, and this I knew by now, as far as I was able, and I had no doubts at all about it. For at one time to move the limbs by an act of will, at another time not; at one time to feel some emotion, at another time not; at one time to speak intelligibly through verbal signs, at another, not--these are all properties of a soul and mind subject to change. And if these things were falsely written about him, all the rest would risk the imputation of falsehood, and there would remain in those books no saving faith for the human race.

Therefore, because they were written truthfully, I acknowledged a perfect man to be in Christ--not the body of a man only, nor, in the body, an animal soul without a rational one as well, but a true man. And this man I held to be superior to all others, not only because he was a form of the Truth, but also because of the great excellence and perfection of his human nature, due to his participation in wisdom.

Alypius, on the other hand, supposed the Catholics to believe that God was so clothed with flesh that besides God and the flesh there was no soul in Christ, and he did not think that a human mind was ascribed to him.[218] And because he was fully persuaded that the actions recorded of him could not have been performed except by a living rational creature, he moved the more slowly toward Christian faith.[219] But when he later learned that this was the error of the Apollinarian heretics, he rejoiced in the Catholic faith and accepted it. For myself, I must confess that it was even later that I learned how in the sentence, "The Word was made flesh," the Catholic truth can be distinguished from the falsehood of Photinus. For the refutation of heretics[220] makes the tenets of thy Church and sound doctrine to stand out boldly. "For there must also be heresies [factions] that those who are approved may be made manifest among the weak."[221]

Book 7 CHAPTER XX​

26. By having thus read the books of the Platonists, and having been taught by them to search for the incorporeal Truth, I saw how thy invisible things are understood through the things that are made. And, even when I was thrown back, I still sensed what it was that the dullness of my soul would not allow me to contemplate. I was assured that thou wast, and wast infinite, though not diffused in finite space or infinity; that thou truly art, who art ever the same, varying neither in part nor motion; and that all things are from thee, as is proved by this sure cause alone: that they exist.

Of all this I was convinced, yet I was too weak to enjoy thee. I chattered away as if I were an expert; but if I had not sought thy Way in Christ our Saviour, my knowledge would have turned out to be not instruction but destruction.[222] For now full of what was in fact my punishment, I had begun to desire to seem wise. I did not mourn my ignorance, but rather was puffed up with knowledge. For where was that love which builds upon the foundation of humility, which is Jesus Christ?[223] Or, when would these books teach me this? I now believe that it was thy pleasure that I should fall upon these books before I studied thy Scriptures, that it might be impressed on my memory how I was affected by them; and then afterward, when I was subdued by thy Scriptures and when my wounds were touched by thy healing fingers, I might discern and distinguish what a difference there is between presumption and confession--between those who saw where they were to go even if they did not see the way, and the Way which leads, not only to the observing, but also the inhabiting of the blessed country. For had I first been molded in thy Holy Scriptures, and if thou hadst grown sweet to me through my familiar use of them, and if then I had afterward fallen on those volumes, they might have pushed me off the solid ground of godliness--or if I had stood firm in that wholesome disposition which I had there acquired, I might have thought that wisdom could be attained by the study of those [Platonist] books alone.

Book 8 CHAPTER II​

3. I went, therefore, to Simplicianus, the spiritual father of Ambrose (then a bishop), whom Ambrose truly loved as a father. I recounted to him all the mazes of my wanderings, but when I mentioned to him that I had read certain books of the Platonists which Victorinus--formerly professor of rhetoric at Rome, who died a Christian, as I had been told--had translated into Latin, Simplicianus congratulated me that I had not fallen upon the writings of other philosophers, which were full of fallacies and deceit, "after the beggarly elements of this world,"[240] whereas in the Platonists, at every turn, the pathway led to belief in God and his Word.

Then, to encourage me to copy the humility of Christ, which is hidden from the wise and revealed to babes, he told me about Victorinus himself, whom he had known intimately at Rome. And I cannot refrain from repeating what he told me about him. For it contains a glorious proof of thy grace, which ought to be confessed to thee: how that old man, most learned, most skilled in all the liberal arts; who had read, criticized, and explained so many of the writings of the philosophers; the teacher of so many noble senators; one who, as a mark of his distinguished service in office had both merited and obtained a statue in the Roman Forum--which men of this world esteem a great honor--this man who, up to an advanced age, had been a worshiper of idols, a communicant in the sacrilegious rites to which almost all the nobility of Rome were wedded; and who had inspired the people with the love of Osiris and


Study harder,
Wait you don't study do you... You just vomit out what your told in church....
Paul
 
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MatthewG

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The mind, will, emotions of the soul can come to a point of a death because of choices in which more worse choices are continued to be made until death is to being patience, death to being kind, death to being merciful, death to being judgemental, within those thoughts, within the will, and emotions of a person. While they can die. That person also who comes to faith, must die to their former ways in which they had went about life formerly being made new in Christ, and having God move into them by faith and they die to the ways of the flesh, which are all learned by the soul since the very day of coming to being in a living body, which is a man seed concieving, and a woman giving birth, and now a new soul is born into the world. Our soul is naturally destined to sin, by the nature of the flesh, and is death in the things of the spirit, until the spirit starts to come in, and then one continues to go forth and learn more about those things which are Heavenly.

All people end up dying. Some have things that lead them to being uncaring, not even desiring God, but only this world and what it is worth. Leading to the death of the soul that sins, and surely we have all had our choices of being mean, uncaring, bullying, or whatever you can think of, or worse. However, Jesus will make all souls alive by raising both faithful, and faithless. Amazing! Though it seems there is a loss for those who desire no need for God, nor relationship of fellowshipping with Yahava, and the Son of God.

It seems to me even Jesus overcoming all death, that would be the second death - the death to self, is the way I look at it, through the fire, perhaps those outside the kingdom, are able to be saved, at least the little of what is left of them, as they make their own choice, even in the heavenly realm where God is.
 

Wick Stick

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Yea..... But your early Chruch Leaders did not follow Aristotle did they.... I will let one of the most important persons in YOUR Church history tell you were he got his Biblical understanding...
I'm not sure why you're so hostile... or why you say "your" like that... are you not also a Christian? Your profile seems to say so.

AUGUSTINE: CONFESSIONS​

Book 7 CHAPTER IX​

13. And first of all, willing to show me how thou dost "resist the proud, but give grace to the humble,"[184] and how mercifully thou hast made known to men the way of humility in that thy Word "was made flesh and dwelt among men,"[185] thou didst procure for me, through one inflated with the most monstrous pride, certain books of the Platonists, translated from Greek into Latin.[186] And therein I found, not indeed in the same words, but to the selfsame effect, enforced by many and various reasons that "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made." That which was made by him is "life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shined in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." Furthermore, I read that the soul of man, though it "bears witness to the light," yet itself "is not the light; but the Word of God, being God, is that true light that lights every man who comes into the world." And further, that "he was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not."[187] But that "he came unto his own, and his own received him not. And as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believed on his name"[188]--this I did not find there.

Book 7 CHAPTER XIX

25. But I thought otherwise. I saw in our Lord Christ only a man of eminent wisdom to whom no other man could be compared--especially because he was miraculously born of a virgin--sent to set us an example of despising worldly things for the attainment of immortality, and thus exhibiting his divine care for us. Because of this, I held that he had merited his great authority as leader. But concerning the mystery contained in "the Word was made flesh," I could not even form a notion. From what I learned from what has been handed down to us in the books about him--that he ate, drank, slept, walked, rejoiced in spirit, was sad, and discoursed with his fellows--I realized that his flesh alone was not bound unto thy Word, but also that there was a bond with the human soul and body. Everyone knows this who knows the unchangeableness of thy Word, and this I knew by now, as far as I was able, and I had no doubts at all about it. For at one time to move the limbs by an act of will, at another time not; at one time to feel some emotion, at another time not; at one time to speak intelligibly through verbal signs, at another, not--these are all properties of a soul and mind subject to change. And if these things were falsely written about him, all the rest would risk the imputation of falsehood, and there would remain in those books no saving faith for the human race.

Therefore, because they were written truthfully, I acknowledged a perfect man to be in Christ--not the body of a man only, nor, in the body, an animal soul without a rational one as well, but a true man. And this man I held to be superior to all others, not only because he was a form of the Truth, but also because of the great excellence and perfection of his human nature, due to his participation in wisdom.

Alypius, on the other hand, supposed the Catholics to believe that God was so clothed with flesh that besides God and the flesh there was no soul in Christ, and he did not think that a human mind was ascribed to him.[218] And because he was fully persuaded that the actions recorded of him could not have been performed except by a living rational creature, he moved the more slowly toward Christian faith.[219] But when he later learned that this was the error of the Apollinarian heretics, he rejoiced in the Catholic faith and accepted it. For myself, I must confess that it was even later that I learned how in the sentence, "The Word was made flesh," the Catholic truth can be distinguished from the falsehood of Photinus. For the refutation of heretics[220] makes the tenets of thy Church and sound doctrine to stand out boldly. "For there must also be heresies [factions] that those who are approved may be made manifest among the weak."[221]

Book 7 CHAPTER XX​

26. By having thus read the books of the Platonists, and having been taught by them to search for the incorporeal Truth, I saw how thy invisible things are understood through the things that are made. And, even when I was thrown back, I still sensed what it was that the dullness of my soul would not allow me to contemplate. I was assured that thou wast, and wast infinite, though not diffused in finite space or infinity; that thou truly art, who art ever the same, varying neither in part nor motion; and that all things are from thee, as is proved by this sure cause alone: that they exist.

Of all this I was convinced, yet I was too weak to enjoy thee. I chattered away as if I were an expert; but if I had not sought thy Way in Christ our Saviour, my knowledge would have turned out to be not instruction but destruction.[222] For now full of what was in fact my punishment, I had begun to desire to seem wise. I did not mourn my ignorance, but rather was puffed up with knowledge. For where was that love which builds upon the foundation of humility, which is Jesus Christ?[223] Or, when would these books teach me this? I now believe that it was thy pleasure that I should fall upon these books before I studied thy Scriptures, that it might be impressed on my memory how I was affected by them; and then afterward, when I was subdued by thy Scriptures and when my wounds were touched by thy healing fingers, I might discern and distinguish what a difference there is between presumption and confession--between those who saw where they were to go even if they did not see the way, and the Way which leads, not only to the observing, but also the inhabiting of the blessed country. For had I first been molded in thy Holy Scriptures, and if thou hadst grown sweet to me through my familiar use of them, and if then I had afterward fallen on those volumes, they might have pushed me off the solid ground of godliness--or if I had stood firm in that wholesome disposition which I had there acquired, I might have thought that wisdom could be attained by the study of those [Platonist] books alone.
I'm not a big fan of Augustine. He seems to have introduced a few major theological errors to the church. From what I've read about him, it seems that he was reading the Scriptures in Greek, except... he didn't actually speak Greek. This didn't prevent him from giving his own interpretations (in Latin) based on his own shaky understanding of the material.

Admittedly, I've read less than half of one of his works (City of God). It wasn't a page-turner so I abandoned it.
Study harder,
Wait you don't study do you... You just vomit out what your told in church....
Go look through my posts. You'll see that you're off-base with this accusation. I'm starting to think that maybe you thought you were replying to someone else... someone that you know, perhaps?
 

Big Boy Johnson

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What an IDIOT!!!

Don't be so hard on yourself, Low self esteem!
You can do better if you give the Lord a chance! agree.gif

Your quote was "You need to bleed sister.... " which is a very odd and disgusting thing to say to someone

I sure hope you get the help you need man!

Here's what Galatians 1:17,18 actually says...

Galatians 1:17,18
Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.


Doesn't say anything about him checking himself in to rehab to "detox" and there is no evidence that Paul was a drug addict or an alcoholic
 

Pierac

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Don't be so hard on yourself, Low self esteem!
You can do better if you give the Lord a chance! View attachment 41520

Your quote was "You need to bleed sister.... " which is a very odd and disgusting thing to say to someone

I sure hope you get the help you need man! View attachment 41522
You need to learn to read..... Baby Boy Johnson... as you speak as a child...

Shortly after Paul's conversion from being a racist, sectarian, self-righteous, bigoted, and highly religious Pharisees to a disciple of the Lord. God led him to an Arabian desert for three years (Galatians 1: 17 -- 18). What was he doing there? Detoxing. Everything that Paul knew as a zealous Pharisee was bled out of him in the desert.

I understand what happening to you too... It's going to be OK...
As Satan sees you on the side of the road and plucks this knowleadge out your your mind before you can even begin to understand!!! (Mar 4:15)


NASB Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (DRAGS) him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

NASB Joh 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

NASB Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

NASB Jude 1:4 For Baby Boy Johnson has crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ....
KJV Jude 1:4 For Baby Boy Johnson crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

You still don't get it do you...
Baby Boy Johnson
 

Big Boy Johnson

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What was he doing there? Detoxing

The scriptures doesn't say anywhere that he was "detoxing" as we have no record from scripture that Paul was on drugs are was an alcoholic disagree.gif

There's not even any evidence that they had rehab clinic back then for people to go to to get clean disagree.gif
 

Taken

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Your Soul IS Immortal, Until...

Mortal means IS subject to Death.

Mortality applies to the BODY, It must, shall, will Die.
The Body IS Flesh, Bones, Tissue, Organs.
The Life of the Body, IS BLOOD.
BLOOD drained, BLOOD stops flowing, Body Dies.

The Life of the soul, IS Gods Breath.
As long As Gods Breath remains IN A Soul, (whether or not the soul remains IN the Body), the soul will continue Living, until “IF” and “WHEN” at any time God departs the Life of the soul (Gods Breath) FROM the soul, at which time the soul will be destroyed and forgotten.

The Natural spirit of man, IS the mans Natural Truth, (in the thoughts, particularly beliefs, in his HEART….which may be the SAME or OPPOSITE of the thoughts in the man’s MIND.)
A mans Natural spirit (truth in his Heart), MUST become “spiritually DEAD”, by means of Circumcision, (performed by the Lord God, WHO Himself IS Spirit).

The Purpose, is TO KILL the Natural Guessworks, Wonderments, Speculations, BELIEFS-regarding God, The Word of God, The Holy Spirit….and RECEIVE a NEW SEED, (Gods Seed), a New Truth (Gods Truth), a New Spirit (Born Again), that which Can Never Die.

The Whole of a man….Body, soul, spirit is incapable of Loving, Submitting, and honoring his submission unto the Lord God…
“WITHOUT” the Power of the Lord God Almighty.

The Lord God, Pre-TELLS, Reveals by His Word and His Example the HOW and WAY a man CAN become MADE wholly whole and Love the Lord God, and BE WITH Him Forever.

Deut 30:
[6] And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
 
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n2thelight

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So one of Christ's very elect that will never be deceived can still have their soul destroyed at the "second death"?? Nah, afraid not. You need to study Revelation 20 again about the "second death" subject.
Not understanding what I said , my point was ,the soul can be destroyed . The elect as well as those who are in Christ take part in the first resurrection and the 2nd death has no power over them . Those not in Christ , their soul can be .
 

n2thelight

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The human soul has an eternal spirit that will cause it to live forever... so the soul will never cease to exist. View attachment 41297

One of the devil's tricks to get people to not get born again is to get them to believe they will cease to exist and will not be torments in hell for all eternity.
Only the super gullible reject what God's Word says and embraces annihilationism View attachment 41298
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
What does the word destroy, mean to you?

And those who are judged to the 2nd death , will perish ,mperiod ..