Your Throne O God

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ByGraceThroughFaith

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Hebrews Chapter 1, verses 8 and 9:

“But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore O God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions”

This passage is the clearest Testimony to the Deity of Jesus Christ, as attested to by God the Father. It is for this very reason, why it has been under attack, on how it should really read. The verse begins, “προς δε”, where the preposition has the meaning of, “in reference to”; as it does in verse 7, when used for the created angels. “but, in reference to THE Son (τον υιον)…”

How are we to understand the words, “ο θρονος σου ο θεος”? Is “ο θεος” here to be understood as the predicate, in the nominative, which could then give the reading, “Your throne is God”. Or, where the nominative is used for the vocative, in direct address, as in most Versions, “Your throne O God”? If this read, “ο θρονος σου ο κύριος”, “your throne O Lord”. There would be no dispute as to how it should read, and everyone would accept that it is in the vocative, as a direct address by the Father to Jesus Christ. Because we here have Jesus Christ as “ο θεος”, literally, “THE GOD”, that there are objections.

The oldest Greek manuscript for this passage, the Papyri P46, about 200 AD, has an interesting reading for verse 8. Instead of “βασιλειας σου” (your Kingdom), this manuscript, along with the Codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus (4th century), read, “βασιλειας αὐτοῦ” (His Kingdom). Which is a change in the pronoun, from the 2nd to the 3rd person, which here refers to “the Son”, and His Kingdom. This reading has no textual support in any manuscripts or Versions of the Old Testament, from where this passage is taken. However, it does confirm that we are to understand the words in the vocative, as a direct address to Jesus Christ, by God the Father.

Almost all of the English Versions of the Bible, read the vocative, Hebrews 1:8 Parallel: But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom., though this can be seen as “biased”, as they do believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ.

The Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint, made from the Hebrew before the time Jesus Christ was Born, reads, “ο θρονος σου ο θεος”. The three English editions, by Brenton, Thomson, and Albert Pietersma and Benjamin G. Wright, also read: “your throne O God”. The Latin Vulgate by Jerome, made from the Hebrew, reads, “Sedes tua Deus in sæculum sæculi”, which is in the vocative, “your throne O God, is forever and ever”. Likewise the Syriac Peshitta Version, made in the 2nd century, also from the Hebrew, where it reads, “Thy throne, O God”. Also vocative.

There are many instances in the Septuagint, where the nominative is used for the vocative, as it is in Attic Greek, from which we the Koine Greek, which is what the New Testament is written in.

A very good example is in John 20:28, where Thomas says to Jesus: “ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου” (my Lord and my God), which is in the nominative, used as an address (ειπεν αυτω, said to Him) so taking the place of the vocative.

It is important that we look at the evidence, from those who do not regard Jesus Christ as Almighty God, which is what this passage in context, clearly teaches.

These words in Hebrews 1, are taken from Psalm 45:6-7, which is a Prophecy of the Coming Messiah. In the Jewish Aramaic Targum on the Psalm, the words are used as a direct address to Jehovah, “The throne of Thy majesty, O Jehovah, abideth for ever and ever.” (Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges).

The Hebrew scholar, Aquila, who published a Greek Version of the Old Testament, in the middle of the 2nd century A.D., translates the Hebrew, “אֱלֹהִים”, by the Greek, “ο θρονος σου θεε”, which is undoubtedly the vocative, “Your throne, O God”. (Fredrick Field, Origen Hexapla, vol. II, pp. 162-163). It is clear, that as early as the 2nd century, the Hebrew, “כִּסְאֲךָ אֱלֹהִים”, was understood as the vocative, and not the nominative. The 11th century French Rabbi, Shlomo Yitzchaki, also known as Rashi, in his comments on this verse, renders it, “Your throne, O judge: Your throne, O prince and judge, shall exist forever and ever” (https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16266/showrashi/true).

Rashi, here takes “אֱלֹהִים”, as “judge”, as he would not apply the words to The Messiah, but to an earthly king. However, it is clear that he understood the words as an address in the vocative.

The Jewish Bible online, reads: “Thy throne, O God” (Tehillim (Psalms): Chapter 45). As is the reading of another Jewish Bible, “Thy throne, O God” (Dr A Benisch; Jewish School and Family Bible, Vol.IV).

In verse 9, the words, “ὁ θεὸς ὁ θεός σου”, is also in the vocative, and should read: “O God, your God”. This is how it was understood in the Greek Old Testament by Symmachus, published in the latter half of the 2nd century. (see, Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges). In this verse also Aquila uses the vocative, θεέ. (Fredrick Field, Origen Hexapla, vol. II, pp. 162-163)

The New Testament by the Unitarian, Dr George Noyes, reads: “but of the Son: ‘Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever”. He would have denied the Deity of Jesus Christ, yet it is clear from his own translation, that God the Father here calls Jesus Christ, GOD. In John 1:1, this version reads, “and the Word was God”. And, in John 1:18, “No one hath ever seen God; the only begotten God”. Clear references to the Deity of Jesus Christ, by a Unitarian!

Another Unitarian, Dr George Winer, also admits that in Hebrews 1:8, the vocative is to be understood.

“The nominative (with the article) is sometimes used in an address, particularly in calling or commanding, thus taking the place of the vocative…H. i.8” (A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, p.227)

The Jehovah’s Witnesses, in both their Kingdom Interlinear New Testaments, 1969 and 1985, read in the English in the right-hand column, “God is your throne forever”. However, in the literal English translation under the Greek text, it reads: “the throne of you the God”. In the other Greek Interlinear that the JW’s publish, The Emphatic Diaglott, it is even more interesting. In verse 8, the literal English translation under the Greek text, it reads: “concerning but the Son; the throne of thee the God for the age [of the age]”. And in the English version in the right-hand column, “But to the Son, Thy Throne, O God is for the age”. And, for verse 9, “therefore thy God anointed thee, O God” (right-hand column). Both verses this translation has the vocative. These reading actually contradict their own theology, that rejects the Deity of Jesus Christ. Not only is the Deity of Jesus Christ here asserted, but, it is God the Father Who addresses Jesus as GOD.

In verse 6, we read of God the Father Commanding the Worship of Jesus Christ.

“But speaking of the time when He once more brings His Firstborn into the world, He says, "And let all God's angels Worship Him.”

There is no equivalent passage in the Hebrew Old Testament. However, in the Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint (LXX), it reads in Deuteronomy 32:43, “ Rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him”. The Hebrew Masoretic Text (MT) reads: “Sing aloud, O ye nations, of His people”. The Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) 4QDeutq, reads: “Rejoice, O heavens, together with Him; and bow down to Him all you gods”. And, again in the LXX of Psalm 96:7, we read, “ Let all that worship graven images be ashamed, who boast of their idols; worship Him, all ye His angels”. The DSS is incomplete here.

In verses 10-12, the Father continues to address Jesus Christ:

“And, You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; and they will all grow old like a garment; like a cloak you will fold them up, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will not fail’

The Greek for “Lord” is “κύριε”, which is vocative, “O Lord”. These words are taken from Psalm 102:25-27, which is spoken of “אל” (God, verse 24), and addressed to Him as The Creator. The Father, by taking these words, and using them for Jesus Christ, is saying that “The Son” is the Actual Creator of the heavens and earth. Not just some secondary, or intermediate. When we read in places like Hebrews 1:2, and John 1:3, where the Greek preposition “διά” is used for Creation. It is not to be understood as “agency”, as though the Father was Creating “through” Jesus Christ. But, as the original use of the preposition, “between, two”, as in Homer, “mutual operation, with one another”. Which agrees with the use of the plural in Genesis 1:26, “let US make man in OUR Image”, etc. And, Job 35:10, where it is literally, “God my Makers (עֹשָׂי, mas, plural)”.

We have Two distinct “Persons” Who are both equally GOD. Both, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who deny the Deity of Jesus Christ; and Unitarians who deny there is more than One Person in the Godhead, are here refuted.
 

Randy Kluth

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Yes, the Deity of Christ was a mystery revealed in the coming of Jesus. To see the Deity of Messiah apparently required "seeing him," and "touching him," for some, as the Apostle John says in 1 John. It has been for many since a divine revelation, transforming our lives. A mere human never could accomplish that. He had to have divine authority to transfer his virtues to us in the Spirit.
 

farouk

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Hebrews Chapter 1, verses 8 and 9:

“But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore O God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions”

This passage is the clearest Testimony to the Deity of Jesus Christ, as attested to by God the Father. It is for this very reason, why it has been under attack, on how it should really read. The verse begins, “προς δε”, where the preposition has the meaning of, “in reference to”; as it does in verse 7, when used for the created angels. “but, in reference to THE Son (τον υιον)…”

How are we to understand the words, “ο θρονος σου ο θεος”? Is “ο θεος” here to be understood as the predicate, in the nominative, which could then give the reading, “Your throne is God”. Or, where the nominative is used for the vocative, in direct address, as in most Versions, “Your throne O God”? If this read, “ο θρονος σου ο κύριος”, “your throne O Lord”. There would be no dispute as to how it should read, and everyone would accept that it is in the vocative, as a direct address by the Father to Jesus Christ. Because we here have Jesus Christ as “ο θεος”, literally, “THE GOD”, that there are objections.

The oldest Greek manuscript for this passage, the Papyri P46, about 200 AD, has an interesting reading for verse 8. Instead of “βασιλειας σου” (your Kingdom), this manuscript, along with the Codices Sinaiticus and Vaticanus (4th century), read, “βασιλειας αὐτοῦ” (His Kingdom). Which is a change in the pronoun, from the 2nd to the 3rd person, which here refers to “the Son”, and His Kingdom. This reading has no textual support in any manuscripts or Versions of the Old Testament, from where this passage is taken. However, it does confirm that we are to understand the words in the vocative, as a direct address to Jesus Christ, by God the Father.

Almost all of the English Versions of the Bible, read the vocative, Hebrews 1:8 Parallel: But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom., though this can be seen as “biased”, as they do believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ.

The Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint, made from the Hebrew before the time Jesus Christ was Born, reads, “ο θρονος σου ο θεος”. The three English editions, by Brenton, Thomson, and Albert Pietersma and Benjamin G. Wright, also read: “your throne O God”. The Latin Vulgate by Jerome, made from the Hebrew, reads, “Sedes tua Deus in sæculum sæculi”, which is in the vocative, “your throne O God, is forever and ever”. Likewise the Syriac Peshitta Version, made in the 2nd century, also from the Hebrew, where it reads, “Thy throne, O God”. Also vocative.

There are many instances in the Septuagint, where the nominative is used for the vocative, as it is in Attic Greek, from which we the Koine Greek, which is what the New Testament is written in.

A very good example is in John 20:28, where Thomas says to Jesus: “ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου” (my Lord and my God), which is in the nominative, used as an address (ειπεν αυτω, said to Him) so taking the place of the vocative.

It is important that we look at the evidence, from those who do not regard Jesus Christ as Almighty God, which is what this passage in context, clearly teaches.

These words in Hebrews 1, are taken from Psalm 45:6-7, which is a Prophecy of the Coming Messiah. In the Jewish Aramaic Targum on the Psalm, the words are used as a direct address to Jehovah, “The throne of Thy majesty, O Jehovah, abideth for ever and ever.” (Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges).

The Hebrew scholar, Aquila, who published a Greek Version of the Old Testament, in the middle of the 2nd century A.D., translates the Hebrew, “אֱלֹהִים”, by the Greek, “ο θρονος σου θεε”, which is undoubtedly the vocative, “Your throne, O God”. (Fredrick Field, Origen Hexapla, vol. II, pp. 162-163). It is clear, that as early as the 2nd century, the Hebrew, “כִּסְאֲךָ אֱלֹהִים”, was understood as the vocative, and not the nominative. The 11th century French Rabbi, Shlomo Yitzchaki, also known as Rashi, in his comments on this verse, renders it, “Your throne, O judge: Your throne, O prince and judge, shall exist forever and ever” (https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16266/showrashi/true).

Rashi, here takes “אֱלֹהִים”, as “judge”, as he would not apply the words to The Messiah, but to an earthly king. However, it is clear that he understood the words as an address in the vocative.

The Jewish Bible online, reads: “Thy throne, O God” (Tehillim (Psalms): Chapter 45). As is the reading of another Jewish Bible, “Thy throne, O God” (Dr A Benisch; Jewish School and Family Bible, Vol.IV).

In verse 9, the words, “ὁ θεὸς ὁ θεός σου”, is also in the vocative, and should read: “O God, your God”. This is how it was understood in the Greek Old Testament by Symmachus, published in the latter half of the 2nd century. (see, Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges). In this verse also Aquila uses the vocative, θεέ. (Fredrick Field, Origen Hexapla, vol. II, pp. 162-163)

The New Testament by the Unitarian, Dr George Noyes, reads: “but of the Son: ‘Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever”. He would have denied the Deity of Jesus Christ, yet it is clear from his own translation, that God the Father here calls Jesus Christ, GOD. In John 1:1, this version reads, “and the Word was God”. And, in John 1:18, “No one hath ever seen God; the only begotten God”. Clear references to the Deity of Jesus Christ, by a Unitarian!

Another Unitarian, Dr George Winer, also admits that in Hebrews 1:8, the vocative is to be understood.

“The nominative (with the article) is sometimes used in an address, particularly in calling or commanding, thus taking the place of the vocative…H. i.8” (A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, p.227)

The Jehovah’s Witnesses, in both their Kingdom Interlinear New Testaments, 1969 and 1985, read in the English in the right-hand column, “God is your throne forever”. However, in the literal English translation under the Greek text, it reads: “the throne of you the God”. In the other Greek Interlinear that the JW’s publish, The Emphatic Diaglott, it is even more interesting. In verse 8, the literal English translation under the Greek text, it reads: “concerning but the Son; the throne of thee the God for the age [of the age]”. And in the English version in the right-hand column, “But to the Son, Thy Throne, O God is for the age”. And, for verse 9, “therefore thy God anointed thee, O God” (right-hand column). Both verses this translation has the vocative. These reading actually contradict their own theology, that rejects the Deity of Jesus Christ. Not only is the Deity of Jesus Christ here asserted, but, it is God the Father Who addresses Jesus as GOD.

In verse 6, we read of God the Father Commanding the Worship of Jesus Christ.

“But speaking of the time when He once more brings His Firstborn into the world, He says, "And let all God's angels Worship Him.”

There is no equivalent passage in the Hebrew Old Testament. However, in the Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint (LXX), it reads in Deuteronomy 32:43, “ Rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him”. The Hebrew Masoretic Text (MT) reads: “Sing aloud, O ye nations, of His people”. The Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) 4QDeutq, reads: “Rejoice, O heavens, together with Him; and bow down to Him all you gods”. And, again in the LXX of Psalm 96:7, we read, “ Let all that worship graven images be ashamed, who boast of their idols; worship Him, all ye His angels”. The DSS is incomplete here.

In verses 10-12, the Father continues to address Jesus Christ:

“And, You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; and they will all grow old like a garment; like a cloak you will fold them up, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will not fail’

The Greek for “Lord” is “κύριε”, which is vocative, “O Lord”. These words are taken from Psalm 102:25-27, which is spoken of “אל” (God, verse 24), and addressed to Him as The Creator. The Father, by taking these words, and using them for Jesus Christ, is saying that “The Son” is the Actual Creator of the heavens and earth. Not just some secondary, or intermediate. When we read in places like Hebrews 1:2, and John 1:3, where the Greek preposition “διά” is used for Creation. It is not to be understood as “agency”, as though the Father was Creating “through” Jesus Christ. But, as the original use of the preposition, “between, two”, as in Homer, “mutual operation, with one another”. Which agrees with the use of the plural in Genesis 1:26, “let US make man in OUR Image”, etc. And, Job 35:10, where it is literally, “God my Makers (עֹשָׂי, mas, plural)”.

We have Two distinct “Persons” Who are both equally GOD. Both, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who deny the Deity of Jesus Christ; and Unitarians who deny there is more than One Person in the Godhead, are here refuted.
@ByGraceThroughFaith The verse is a most glorious declaration of Christ's Deity.
 

stephen64

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A famous christian said:

'Some like to read their bibles in the Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew. I like to read mine through the Holy Spirit'
 

tigger 2

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@ByGraceThroughFaith The verse [Heb. 1:8] is a most glorious declaration of Christ's Deity.
..................................................................
Literally the NT Greek manuscripts read: “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age.”

No one should deny that the title theos (NT Greek word meaning “God,” “god,” “mighty one,” “divine,” etc.) can be applied to Jesus (at least in the writings of John - see the DEF and BOWGOD studies), just as it was applied in the scriptures to angels, judges of Israel, Moses, and (according to some trinitarian authorities) even the kings of Israel.

But theos is never applied to Jesus with the most high sense that is given only to the Almighty, Most High, only true God. So it could, perhaps, have been used at Heb. 1:8 in its positive secondary sense: “Your throne, o mighty one [theos], is ...”. This seems even more probable when we remember that Paul is really quoting from Ps. 45:6.

Psalm 45 is celebrating an Israelite king’s marriage, and the psalmist applies the words of Ps. 45:6, 7 literally to an ancient Israelite king. In fact, the trinitarian New American Standard Bible (NASB), Reference Edition, explains in a footnote for Ps. 45:1, “Probably refers to Solomon as a type of Christ.”

So, according to this trinitarian Bible, the words of Ps. 45:6, although figuratively referring to Jesus, were literally applied to an ancient Israelite king (probably King Solomon, it says).

So if Ps. 45:6 is properly translated, “your throne, O God ...” then that ancient Israelite King (Solomon?) was also literally called “O God” (or “O god”?). In fact, the highly trinitarian New American Bible, St. Joseph Edition, 1970, explains in a footnote for this verse:

“The Hebrew king was called ... ‘God,’ not in the polytheistic sense common among the ancient pagans, but as meaning ‘godlike’ or ‘taking the place of God’.”


The trinitarian Easy-to-read-Version also says in a footnote for this passage:

God .... here the writer might be using the word ‘God’ as a title for the king.” (Cf. NIV Study Bible f.n. for Pss. 45:6 and 82:1, 6.)

(And the revised 1991 ed. of the NAB actually translates Ps. 45:6, 7 as “Your throne, O god.”) The NAB (1970 ed.) goes on to explain, however, that others have translated this verse as, “Your throne is the throne of God” and refers us to 1 Chron. 29:23 “where Solomon’s throne is referred to as the throne of the LORD [Jehovah].”

Now we’re getting closer to the most likely intention of Heb. 1:8. There is good evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”

For one thing, the definite article (“the”) is used in the NT Greek with “God” in this scripture. Not even John (who does, rarely, use theos for Jesus) uses theos with the definite article for anyone except the Only True God - the Father. - See the DEF study.

Also, if we look at some respected trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.

Oxford professor and famous trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, has been described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God- p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

8 but to the son he saith, "God is thy throne for ever and ever; the sceptre of thy kingdom is a sceptre of equity. - Daniel Mace New Testament.

“God is thy throne for ever and ever…”- Twentieth Century New Testament.

Another acclaimed scholar of trinitarian Christendom, Dr. William Barclay, has translated this as “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

Famed trinitarian (Southern Baptist) New Testament Greek scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson acknowledges that either “Thy throne, O God” orGod is thy throne” may be proper renderings: “Either makes good sense.” - p. 339.

The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the famous trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ...’ in either case it is applicable to the mediatorial throne only.”
 

tigger 2

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Quoted From Ps. 45

In addition to these admissions by trinitarian translators concerning Heb. 1:8, we need to look back at the Old Testament Hebrew scripture (Ps. 45:6) that Paul was quoting when he wrote Heb. 1:8.

The RSV renders it as “Your Divine throne” and a footnote provides this alternate reading: “Or ‘your throne is a throne of God.’”

The NEB says: “Your throne is like God’s throne.”

The Holy Scriptures (JPS version) says: “Thy throne given of God.”

The Bible in Living English (Byington) says: “God is your throne.”

The Good News Bible (GNB), a very trinitarian paraphrase Bible, renders it: “The kingdom

that God has given you will last forever and ever.”

The REB has: “God has enthroned you for all eternity.”

And the NJB gives us: “your throne is from God.”

We also see the following statement by respected trinitarian scholars in a footnote for this passage:

45:6 O God. Possibly the king’s throne is called God’s throne because he is God’s appointed regent. But it is also possible that the king himself is addressed as ‘god.’ - Ps. 45:6 f.n. in the NIV Study Bible.

In addition to the above renderings by many respected translators (most of whom are trinitarian), we have the statement by perhaps the greatest scholar of Biblical Hebrew of all time, H. F. W. Gesenius. In his famous and highly respected Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Gesenius renders Ps. 45:6, “thy throne shall be a divine throne.”

Obviously, then, the charge sometimes made that the NWT is “not being honest or scholarly” with its rendering of Heb. 1:8 is simply untrue, and it certainly may be honestly translated “God is your throne forever.”

Just the admission by so many trinitarian translators (above) that Heb. 1:8 may be honestly translated as it is in the NWT makes any insistence by other trinitarians that this scripture is acceptable proof for a trinity doctrine completely invalid!
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Literally the NT Greek manuscripts read: “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age.”

why does "ο θρονος σου ο θεος", where "ο θεος", have the definite article, become, according to you, "god"? Can you cite any decent Bible version that supports this? Even the Unitarian New Testament by Dr Geroge Noyes, reads, "thy throne, O God", The New Testament : Noyes, George R. (George Rapall), 1798-1868 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

What you have done, as you do, is to force your personal theology, into what the Bible actually says!

The Greek here in taken as vocative, which is an address, and reads correctly, "Your Throne O God", as does verse 9, "ο θεος ο θεος σου", which is, "O God Your God". Even the Unitarian Dr Winer in his Greek grammar admits this!"
 

Wrangler

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“But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever

@ByGraceThroughFaith The verse is a most glorious declaration of Christ's Deity.

It is no such declaration. 'O God,' like his son, means of God and the verse quotes Ps 45 referring to an ancient king (like Solomon who has sons, Ps 45:16), which is the Psalmist speaking, not God.

Whose throne does Jesus sit on? Jesus sits on the throne of God. The throne of God is eternal. This does not mean the person who sits on it is God.

 
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ByGraceThroughFaith

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It is no such declaration. 'O God,' like his son, means of God and the verse quotes Ps 45 referring to an ancient king (like Solomon who has sons, Ps 45:16), which is the Psalmist speaking, not God.

Whose throne does Jesus sit on? Jesus sits on the throne of God. The throne of God is eternal. This does not mean the person who sits on it is God.


WHAT is God the Father, in addressing Jesus Christ, be saying to Him, about an ancient king? this is utter rubbish!

It is a DIRECT ADDRESS to Jesus Christ, about HIM, and not another!

Like in verse 6, the Father says to WORSHIP Jesus

In verses 10-12, again the Father is addressing Jesus, and says that He is the Actual Creator of the universe

Your theology is blinding you
 

Wrangler

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It is a DIRECT ADDRESS to Jesus Christ, about HIM, and not another!
Absolutely not! The writer of Hebrews is quoting Psalms.

In addition, like the Gospel of John, trinitarians attempt to re-purpose Scripture. Whereas per John 20:31, the entire Gospel is to show something other than Jesus is God; namely that Jesus is the Son of God, Hebrews 1 is about showing how the Son of God is greater than the angels.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Absolutely not! The writer of Hebrews is quoting Psalms

you don't even know what you are talking about!

the FACT that in Hebrews 1:8, the nominative, is understood as vocative, means it is an ADDRESS! Learn Greek grammar before you write nonsense!

As the Unitarian, Dr George Winer, also admits that in Hebrews 1:8, the vocative is to be understood.

“The nominative (with the article) is sometimes used in an address, particularly in calling or commanding, thus taking the place of the vocative…H. i.8” (A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, p.227)
 

Wrangler

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the title of the video says not to waste my time, because it is clearly against what the Bible teaches!
No. The video title is clearly against how trinitarians hope is the only way the Bible should be interpretted. Again I say, you are attempting to repurpose Hebrews 1, which is only to explain the superiority of the son to the angels.

The video is a brilliant and irrefutable analysis of the attempt to make Hebrews 1 mean what it does not say. That you do not even want to educate yourself by refusing to even watch the video on the basis some reject your take speaks volumes.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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No. The video title is clearly against how trinitarians hope is the only way the Bible should be interpretted. Again I say, you are attempting to repurpose Hebrews 1, which is only to explain the superiority of the son to the angels.

The video is a brilliant and irrefutable analysis of the attempt to make Hebrews 1 mean what it does not say. That you do not even want to educate yourself by refusing to even watch the video on the basis some reject your take speaks volumes.

You still can't refute any of my threads on this forum
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

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Yea, because I have refuted all of them. :p

In Hebrews 1:5, who said he would be his father? God (in his wholeness, in his unitarian nature).

'For us, there is one God, the Father.' 1 COR 8:6

I have shown from many Bible passages, like John 1:1; Isaiah 9:6, and 10:21; Psalm 110:1; John 1:18; Zachariah 2:6-12; Isaiah 48:1-17, etc, where it is clear that GOD is not a single Person, as these, and many other passages refute this HERESY!
 

Wrangler

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I have shown from many Bible passages ... where it is clear that GOD is not a single Person
No, you have asserted it but not shown it. For instance, the entire Gospel of John cannot be used for the purpose as it goes against what John said. 1:1 does not even reference Jesus. This has been shown many times but you do not have eyes to see.

Should God get all the glory or should his glory be divided among even his servants (Jesus is explicitly said to be God's servant in Acts 3:13)? Simple question.
 

tigger 2

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why does "ο θρονος σου ο θεος", where "ο θεος", have the definite article, become, according to you, "god"? Can you cite any decent Bible version that supports this? Even the Unitarian New Testament by Dr Geroge Noyes, reads, "thy throne, O God", The New Testament : Noyes, George R. (George Rapall), 1798-1868 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

What you have done, as you do, is to force your personal theology, into what the Bible actually says!

The Greek here in taken as vocative, which is an address, and reads correctly, "Your Throne O God", as does verse 9, "ο θεος ο θεος σου", which is, "O God Your God". Even the Unitarian Dr Winer in his Greek grammar admits this!"

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"What you have done, as you do, is to force your personal theology, into what the Bible actually says!"

I prefer to think that you just don't read before you criticize. (see posts #5 and 6 above). The alternative is not good.

"my personal theology" did not force the many authorities I have cited and quoted. Try reading it all before the personal attack.