The Bible

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Selene

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Lets make it really simple, show me the proof, that the bible is Gods word, Jesus and the disciples reffered to the Ot, the Taurah as scripture not the new testament, and also can any show me where God was going to give us a book, that would cause so much divisoin amongst His people. According to Jesus, the only thing He ever gave us was the Holt Spirirt to teach us the truth, and even the disciples say, "the letter killeth, but the spirirt brings life", so are they wrong. Even Jesus said ( according to the bible), " The words that I speak are Spirirt and they are life", was He wrong to?? You seee like many, I dont see the completee bible as the inspired word of God, but yet I see a lot of truth in it, I guess you have to decide, who is the final authority " God ", or the Bible.

In His LOve

God never gave us the Bible. Even in the Old Testament, it was the prophets speaking and there were many prophecies spoken in the Old Testament. There was only the spoken word until someone decided to write Israel's history with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, when the Apostles spoke about Scripture, it was the Old Testament books that they were referring to because these were the only Scriptures written at that time. God never gave us the Bible. The only thing that Christ left was the Church. It was the Church that wrote the New Testament books. But the people who wrote these letters and Gospels, they did not know that their letters would become the New Testament. This is the very reason why the Bible is not our sole authority. The Bible cannot interpret itself.
 

Selene

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So you can decide which parts of Scripture are literal or not. Then maybe the virgin birth is not literal, or the cross, or the resurrection. If only part of the Scriptures have value how can any of it be believed?

There are some things that one should not take literally in the Bible....unless of course, you actually believe that the earth is standing on pillars like the Bible says:

Johb 9:6 He shakes th earth out of its place, and the pillars beneath it tremble.

Job 38:4-6 Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its size; do you know? Who stretched out the measureing line for it? Into what were its pedestals sunk, and who laid the cornerstone,

There are no pillars or pedestals holding up the earth in its place. Thus, we see here that God did not take away man's human knowledge even as He inspired man to write His message down in a book. People during those times believe that the earth was flat, not round. Their knowledge of the world was limited. Ancient Israel believed that the earth was held up by pillars.....in the same way as the Greek pagans thought that the earth was held up by the Titan Atlas.
 

amadeus

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The majority of Christians believe the Bible is an inspired document, however, many disagree on which perspective the Bible is written from. So is the Bible written from God's perspective or Human perspective? When you read the Bible is it human's commentary on God or the other way around? I strongly believe the Bible is inspired, but written by human hand and therefore limited by human perspective. Every word in the Bible is supposed to be there, however the meaning can only be captured in broad strokes because it is filtered through human culture and understanding of God's revelation.

Agree or disagree.
Probably many here have read the "Bible" in various versions and languages deriving from all of these books some of God's Truth. I submit that God's Truth is in all of them, but when a person actually gets a bit or more thn a bit of that Truth it is not because of the person's brain size or IQ or time spent in reading or studying, but the Truth received is what the Spirit has written along with the interpretation in the person's heart. The Spirit is the only real teacher and guide to any man who desires to be led toward God instead of away from Him.

People are often confused or even disagree on the question of how the Holy Ghost leads, teaches and is manifested to men.

How many ways did God manifest Himself in scripture, both OT and NT?

Was it through signs as wonders such as in the flame at night and the cloud by day over the tabernacle in the wilderness?

Was it through a still small voice to Elijah?

Was through the prophet Nathan when he told David about his sins with Bathsheba and Uriah?

Was it in the fire from heaven when Elijah faced the 4000 prophets of Baal?

Was it in the voice from heaven that spoke to Jesus?

Was it in the hem of His garment when the woman with an issue of blood touched that garment and was healed?

Was it in the mouth of Peter when he spoke in Acts 2 or in the ears of the hearers when they heard him apparently speak in their own languages?

Was it in the shadow of Peter when people were healed by it?

Was it in the rod of Moses when the waters of the Red Sea were divided for the children of Israel?

Was it in the pitchers and horns of the 300 followers of Gideon?

Was it in the unshorn hair of Samson?

Was it not in all of these and more?

Sometimes in order to receive what thus saith the Lord a man is needed as with the Ethiopean eunoch when God sent Philip to him to interpret the words written byt Isaiah.

Sometimes it comes to us in a dream as with Joseph the betrothed of Mary!

Sometimes it comes to us through an angel of the Lord as with Hannah, the mother of Samuel.

I have mentioned only a few of the many examples in scripture. Undoubtedly, others on the forum could list many more. The point is that God is not limited in the number of ways that He can and does manifest Himself to people.

The problem with the Bible is that people are able to read it with no understanding, or partial understanding, or perhaps worse, with misunderstanding. Yet, for all of this there, most of us will agree that there is a single book containng all the Truth that man needs to be able to really approach God more closely.

All that is needed is the correct interpreter at the correct time! Jesus needed no other interpreter than Himself. He was the Word of God made flesh and to a hungry and a thirsty heart He made clear that which needed to be made clear.

"If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." I Cor 14:27-28

The Ethiopean eunoch did not attempt to explain what he was reading in the book of Isaiah. He knew that he did not understand so he kept silent simply reading along until there was a man of God to ask, until there was a man of God to explain. Sometimes that is where our interpreter is, in a man of God outside of ourselves, but we know from all of the examples that I showed above that another man of God is not the only way that God speaks to us.

Again the problem is that too often men have only partial understanding or misunderstanding of the words in the Bible. Too many of them are ready to run and do run with only partial or even wrong interpretations of the that book. The Lord did give us the way to all of the answers that we need.

One of them is here:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you ." Matt 6:33

Another is here:

" Ask , and it shall be given you; seek , and ye shall find; knock , and it shall be opened unto you" Matt 7:7

Another is here in the OT:

"Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit , saith the LORD of hosts." Zechariah 4:5-6

This is not the end of His words to us. Another important starting point is faith:

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17

Give God all of the glory always!
 

amadeus

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Lets make it really simple, show me the proof, that the bible is Gods word, Jesus and the disciples reffered to the Ot, the Taurah as scripture not the new testament, and also can any show me where God was going to give us a book, that would cause so much divisoin amongst His people. According to Jesus, the only thing He ever gave us was the Holt Spirirt to teach us the truth, and even the disciples say, "the letter killeth, but the spirirt brings life", so are they wrong. Even Jesus said ( according to the bible), " The words that I speak are Spirirt and they are life", was He wrong to?? You seee like many, I dont see the completee bible as the inspired word of God, but yet I see a lot of truth in it, I guess you have to decide, who is the final authority " God ", or the Bible.

In His LOve
The proof is in your heart or, for you, it does not exist. We do not start with knowledge. We start with faith.

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

As we go from faith to faith [Romans 1:17], that is as we increase in Him and decrease in ourselves [John 3:3], we also begin to have knowledge. The end of our faith toward God is our knowledge of God. When we know Him completely, which is only possible for us through His Son, then we will no longer live by faith, but as Jesus did, by knowledge. Then we will be like Him [I John 3:2]
 

Anastacia

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Lets make it really simple, show me the proof, that the bible is Gods word, Jesus and the disciples reffered to the Ot, the Taurah as scripture not the new testament, and also can any show me where God was going to give us a book, that would cause so much divisoin amongst His people. According to Jesus, the only thing He ever gave us was the Holt Spirirt to teach us the truth, and even the disciples say, "the letter killeth, but the spirirt brings life", so are they wrong. Even Jesus said ( according to the bible), " The words that I speak are Spirirt and they are life", was He wrong to?? You seee like many, I dont see the completee bible as the inspired word of God, but yet I see a lot of truth in it, I guess you have to decide, who is the final authority " God ", or the Bible.

In His LOve


I can hardly believe how you disregard the written word of God. You say "show me proof that the bible is God's word"--- If you obey the Word of God, and if you have the Holy Spirit in you.....if you have the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better (Eph 1:17)....then you could not say some of the things you say....and you would know that the Bible, the New Testament is the word of God. You would know.

When you quote scripture saying "the letter killeth, but the spirit brings life"---that is about the Old Testament laws! And you wouldn't even know Jesus said that if you didn't read it in the Bible!

You say "show me where God was going to give us a book..." How do you know about Jesus and his teachings if you don't read what he says---in the Bible!?!

Now read this...

Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him--to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen. Romans 16:25-27.

And this...

Peter 1:20-21 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

New Testament teachings and books were accepted as scripture immediately. In 1 Timothy 5:18 Paul joins a New Testament scripture (Luke 10:7) to an Old Testament scripture (Deuteronomy 25:4) and calls them both scripture. And we can see in 2 Peter 3:15-16 Peter recognizes Paul's writing as scripture. See this.....2 Peter 2:15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

It's important to remember that the canon of the New Testament was not the result of any pronouncement by any official of the church or any organizational body. Rather, the canon was determined by the authoritative use of these books right from the start by the rapidly expanding Church of the first and second centuries.

You need to be rebuted sharply!

Titus 1:13
This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith

Repent, mjrhealth! Repent of this evilness of your throwing suspicion on the written word of God from the New Covenant/New Testament.

2 Timothy 2:25-26 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
 

aspen

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I can hardly believe how you disregard the written word of God. You say "show me proof that the bible is God's word"--- If you obey the Word of God, and if you have the Holy Spirit in you.....if you have the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better (Eph 1:17)....then you could not say some of the things you say....and you would know that the Bible, the New Testament is the word of God. You would know.

So if I was a real Christian, I would believe the same way you do?

When you quote scripture saying "the letter killeth, but the spirit brings life"---that is about the Old Testament laws! And you wouldn't even know Jesus said that if you didn't read it in the Bible!

Sacred Tradition - Through Apostolic Succession.

You say "show me where God was going to give us a book..." How do you know about Jesus and his teachings if you don't read what he says---in the Bible!?!


The Church

Now read this...

Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him--to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen. Romans 16:25-27.


So are you saying that his gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ is confined to the written word?

Peter 1:20-21 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Yes - the scriptures are inspired and written through human hands. Does inspiration mean the same as dictation to you, Anastacia?

New Testament teachings and books were accepted as scripture immediately. In 1 Timothy 5:18 Paul joins a New Testament scripture (Luke 10:7) to an Old Testament scripture (Deuteronomy 25:4) and calls them both scripture. And we can see in 2 Peter 3:15-16 Peter recognizes Paul's writing as scripture. See this.....2 Peter 2:15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Ah, so now we are unstable....

Look, the fact is that all the Paul spent time with Peter and certainly with Luke - they shared a lot of inspired ideas. This says nothing about canonization of scripture.

It's important to remember that the canon of the New Testament was not the result of any pronouncement by any official of the church or any organizational body. Rather, the canon was determined by the authoritative use of these books right from the start by the rapidly expanding Church of the first and second centuries.

Then I guess you have some extra book in your NT - the Didiache and the Shepherd of Hermes for example. You should go and look at a chart of all the books that were and were not accepted by the different Churches and leaders in the early church - it varies widely. BTW - do you exclude Mark chapter 16 from your NT? Everyone agrees it was written later than the rest of the book, by someone who wanted the story to end nicely - your Bible probably footnotes it.

You need to be rebuted sharply!

Well, that seems to be your gift.

Titus 1:13
This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith

Repent, mjrhealth! Repent of this evilness of your throwing suspicion on the written word of God from the New Covenant/New Testament.

Yes! how dare you think, MJRHEALTH!! How dare you consider church history! How dare you!


 

Anastacia

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aspen, you want to fight me with personal attacks that have nothing to do with scripture? Is that what you want to do here too, like you did in the Catholic thread?
 

mjrhealth

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Again, show me the proof. None of you can. You wonder why people dont listen when you preach the bible ,its because you dont know Christ, you disregard the better things for that which is written, you engraved it in stone and become unteachable. You see none of you have any proof, God only ever spoke of the spoken word, " the words that I speak",

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

And who is this word " Jesus, the word come in the flesh"

Have we ever denied Christ, no

Have we ever denied God or the Holy Spirit, no.

But the gospel we speak, is not of man we live by the spirirt not the flesh, if you cannot understand these worldly thinbgs then how can you understand spiritual things.

God is Spirirt, His wpords are Sprirt, it is the Spirirt that brings life, the flesh proffeth nothing.

In His Love

I do not have a problem with alchohol either but there are a lot of very foolish people who drimk it to excess.
 

aspen

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aspen, you want to fight me with personal attacks that have nothing to do with scripture?

Is that an invitation? I am sorry, I am going to have to decline. However, I may respond to your posts, or I may not


Is that what you want to do here too, like you did in the Catholic thread?

And the goading continues.....


I am interested in your opinion on the last half of Mark 16 - is it scripture? If not, why is in in the Bible?


 

TexUs

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Honestly I thought a more open forum was a good thing but holy crap I can totally understand why others have to establish "central Christian values" and ban people if they don't adhere to them.
Do you Catholics not find it just a bit odd that you're constantly contradicting scripture and must run circles around it and nit pick terminology in order to remotely support your views?

Just don't be surprised, when you deny the Bible is actually from God, when the majority of Pentecostals hold to the belief Catholics aren't Christian. It's not like you don't give them plenty of ammo.


It's really pointless to even argue with Catholics on here anymore.
I think it was pretty obvious you crap on Scripture back in the Catholic thread but this thread proves it and directly addresses the issue. If you don't believe that Scripture is accurate and infallible and of God then the point I argue from is moot and it results into a pissing match because both sides aren't standing on Scripture.


I also think it's pointless to "correct" it because again, my tool to correct is the Bible, and when it's regarded in as high esteem as a pile of cow poo it's a fruitless waste of time.
 
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mjrhealth

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Wheres the catholic. If people got banned for denying the truth, there would be only a few peolpe on here.

The truth is not necessarily what some one has told you, but it is everything you learn from Jesus.


I Guess it should be" How dare I put Christ first above all things", foolisness isnt it".

In His Love
 

Selene

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Again, show me the proof. None of you can. You wonder why people dont listen when you preach the bible ,its because you dont know Christ, you disregard the better things for that which is written, you engraved it in stone and become unteachable. You see none of you have any proof, God only ever spoke of the spoken word, " the words that I speak",

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Hello mjrhealth,

The fact that you quote Scripture shows that even you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. You simply do not see it as the sole authority as we do. I also do not see the Bible as the "sole" authority. You are correct that there is someone much higher than the Bible...and that would be God. We believe that the Bible is the "word of God." However, there is another word...a living word. He is also called the "Word of God." This living Word of God has a name. His name is Jesus Christ. Not everything is written in the Bible, and this is why the Bible is not the ONLY authority. I believe that the Bible is the word of God, but I also agree with you, that the Bible is not the sole authority because God is much higher than the Bible.

John 21:25 There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.
 

mjrhealth

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No I do not believe the bible is the inspired word of God, but I do believe it has some things that God has to say to man, to believe the whole bible is the inspired word of God, would be to say that God is a liar, He contradicts Himself and is even forced to do things by satan. Let me take you to one if my favourite stories, Job. I love it. Now here we see God tetting satan have his way with Jobs family.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Now lets look at this verse.

Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Whose fire,? Gods, did not God was leaving it in satans hands, but who got blamed...

Now lets take a look at this verse.

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Now honestly, do you think that satan could provoke God to move against one of His own, is that so much like man, " Look what you made me do".

Who is the creator, God or satan. Is God evil like satan, that He should do such a thing.

And still there is not one, who can prove to me that it is the inspired word of God, nor show me a place wher eGod or Jesus said thay would give us a book to read.

In His Love
 

Anastacia

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No I do not believe the bible is the inspired word of God, but I do believe it has some things that God has to say to man, to believe the whole bible is the inspired word of God, would be to say that God is a liar, He contradicts Himself and is even forced to do things by satan. Let me take you to one if my favourite stories, Job. I love it. Now here we see God tetting satan have his way with Jobs family.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Now lets look at this verse.

Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Whose fire,? Gods, did not God was leaving it in satans hands, but who got blamed...

Now lets take a look at this verse.

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Now honestly, do you think that satan could provoke God to move against one of His own, is that so much like man, " Look what you made me do".

Who is the creator, God or satan. Is God evil like satan, that He should do such a thing.

And still there is not one, who can prove to me that it is the inspired word of God, nor show me a place wher eGod or Jesus said thay would give us a book to read.

In His Love


Some people are just blind and will not be able to see it, even when it is shown to them over and over.
 

Anastacia

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I can hardly believe how you disregard the written word of God. You say "show me proof that the bible is God's word"--- If you obey the Word of God, and if you have the Holy Spirit in you.....if you have the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better (Eph 1:17)....then you could not say some of the things you say....and you would know that the Bible, the New Testament is the word of God. You would know.

When you quote scripture saying "the letter killeth, but the spirit brings life"---that is about the Old Testament laws! And you wouldn't even know Jesus said that if you didn't read it in the Bible!

You say "show me where God was going to give us a book..." How do you know about Jesus and his teachings if you don't read what he says---in the Bible!?!

Now read this...

Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him--to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen. Romans 16:25-27.

And this...

Peter 1:20-21 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

New Testament teachings and books were accepted as scripture immediately. In 1 Timothy 5:18 Paul joins a New Testament scripture (Luke 10:7) to an Old Testament scripture (Deuteronomy 25:4) and calls them both scripture. And we can see in 2 Peter 3:15-16 Peter recognizes Paul's writing as scripture. See this.....2 Peter 2:15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

It's important to remember that the canon of the New Testament was not the result of any pronouncement by any official of the church or any organizational body. Rather, the canon was determined by the authoritative use of these books right from the start by the rapidly expanding Church of the first and second centuries.

You need to be rebuted sharply!

Titus 1:13
This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith

Repent, mjrhealth! Repent of this evilness of your throwing suspicion on the written word of God from the New Covenant/New Testament. Some people benefit from a sharp rebuke, and some benefit from gentle instruction. You have been rebuked sharply, and you have been gently instructed....I hope that God will grant you repentance leading you to a knowledge of the truth. Come to your senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken you captive to do his will.

2 Timothy 2:25-26 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.
 

Selene

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No I do not believe the bible is the inspired word of God, but I do believe it has some things that God has to say to man, to believe the whole bible is the inspired word of God, would be to say that God is a liar, He contradicts Himself and is even forced to do things by satan. Let me take you to one if my favourite stories, Job. I love it. Now here we see God tetting satan have his way with Jobs family.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Now lets look at this verse.

Job 1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Whose fire,? Gods, did not God was leaving it in satans hands, but who got blamed...

Now lets take a look at this verse.

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Now honestly, do you think that satan could provoke God to move against one of His own, is that so much like man, " Look what you made me do".

Who is the creator, God or satan. Is God evil like satan, that He should do such a thing.

And still there is not one, who can prove to me that it is the inspired word of God, nor show me a place wher eGod or Jesus said thay would give us a book to read.

In His Love

Hello mjrhealth,

I can understand how you feel. :) I agree that there is a lot of contradictions in the Bible and that the Old Testament does indeed make God look like a murderous vengeful God. That is why we do not take the Bible literally. We do believe that the entire Bible is the "word of God" because revealed Himself to the Israelites in their history. The Sacred authors wrote God's message inside their history. It was a message of love and revelation so that the Israelites would know who God is despite that the message was written inside a violent history.

There is a message in the story of Job. God allowed Satan to do what he wants with Job and his family, but this story reveals that even Satan is bound by God. God told Satan that he is not allowed to kill Job. The fact that Satan did as God instructed him to do reveals to us that God is much more powerful than Satan. This is one of the messages that God reveals to us in that story. Satan is much more powerful than us, but not more powerful than God. We cannot defeat Satan. No man can defeat Satan because Satan is more powerful than any human. In order to defeat Satan, we must depend on God and not on ourselves. Thus, we can defeat Satan only when we turn to God.

The second message in the story of Job that God sends us is that many of the bad things that happen in our lives will be blamed on God rather than on Satan. God allows bad things to happen because He respects and values the freedomof ALL His creatures. God is not going to force us to avoid sin. He is not going to force us to love Him or to follow Him. That choice must be ours to make. When all the bad things happened in Job's life, Job could easily have blamed God for it, but he didn't. Even Job's friends were telling him that God abandoned him, but Job refused to believed them. His friends told Job lies about God so that Job would turn against God, but Job refused to listen. The message that we learned from this story is that we must learn to be like Job. No matter what bad things happen in our lives, God will not abandon us. It is the devil who wants us to believe that God abandons us and do evil to us, but the message that God sends us in the story of Job is that God loves us so much that He will never abandon us even when the devil tries to tell us lies about God. Job refused to listen to Satan who was speaking through Job's friends and Job remained loyal to God and trusted God no matter what bad things happened to him. In the end, this is what the Lord said about Job's friends:

Job 42:7-10 And it came to pass after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and with your two friends, for you have not spoken rightly concerning me, as has my servant Job. Now, therefore, take seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up a holocaust for yourselves; and let my servant Job pray for you; for his prayer I will accept, not to punish you severely. For you have not spoken rightly concerning me, as has my servant Job. Then Eliphaz the Emanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite, went and did as the Lord had commanded them. And the Lord accepted the intercession of Job. Also, the Lord restored the prosperity of Job, after he had prayed for his friends; the Lord even gave to Job twice as much as he had before.

The first message that God gives us in the story of Job is that God values the freedom of all His creatures; however, with Satan, God has power over Him. Satan is not more powerful than God. Satan, however, is much more powerful than man; therefore, man must learn to put their faith and trust in God to defeat Satan. The second message that God gives us is that Satan will do all within his power to convince us that God is an evil God and does all these evil things. He will tell us lies about God and even try to convince us that God abandons us. We are not to trust the words of Satan and put all our faith and trust in God. We must bear our sufferings with patience as Job did because in the end God will prevail over Satan's works. We do not know when or how God will prevail, but this is why we must place our full trust in our Lord with patience.

In Christ,
Selene
 

Nomad

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Selene,

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

The idea that God is higher than his own self-revelation and communication is asinine on its face. God's 'word' represents God's will and nature. God's 'word' represents who God is and what God wants. God's 'word' represents God. No, God is not higher than his own 'word.'

As I said previously, the only reason anyone takes this low view of Scripture is because it clashes with their theological and philosophical presuppositions and preferences. This kind of subjectivity is born out of a sinful emotionalism and rationalization rather than the objective communication and revelation of God and his word.

What would you know about God and redemption without the Scriptures? Selene, I challenge you and your friends to show me an objective, extra-Biblical, source of revelation outside of the Holy Scriptures. Show me how I can access this extra-Biblical communication in order to see it or hear it for myself.


 

HammerStone

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I have to second what Nomad says here in that if we discount the Bible as the inspired Word of God, exactly what do we know from God? Do we then jump to some of the mystical experiences? How does one know it is God? What about inspired words spoken by man? Again, how do we know its from God? There are a lot of opinions out there even with a Bible and so many more if you discount the Word. What then makes Christianity any better than another religion?

I don't buy into the relativist argument of the Bible because then we can begin to argue about relative truths and the idea that we can truly copy and paste what the Bible says to our own form of religion.

I'm reminded of Matthew 12:

[bible=Matthew 12:25-28]
Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
[/bible]

While books and other cannons about the Bible come and go (or they might get changed by a committee) the Bible has continued to withstand any assault thrown at it. I apply the above to it in that it endures all as the Word of God and not just as an assemblage of some holy men. I hear talk of a God that is not compassionate in the Old Testament, but the same promised fate for idolaters exists and is arguably magnified. (Compare the threat of earthly death to the promise final damnation.) All of this clearly is underscored by the extremely amazing offer of grace from our Father, but that does not change the reality of the message.

I don't like death and people dying, but I cannot write that out and yet a very loving and compassionate God allows it to happen. So why are we so intent on writing out the Scriptures!?
 

aspen

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Honestly I thought a more open forum was a good thing but holy crap I can totally understand why others have to establish "central Christian values" and ban people if they don't adhere to them.

We agree on central Christian values - but at this point, a small block of people (anastacia, foreigner, you, marksman) would consider it a lose to agree with a Catholic, right?


Do you Catholics not find it just a bit odd that you're constantly contradicting scripture and must run circles around it and nit pick terminology in order to remotely support your views?

Not at all - we are not Protestant. You are frustrated because we do not fit in a Protestant box, which you falsely label as Christian. The fact is, your box is too small.

Just don't be surprised, when you deny the Bible is actually from God, when the majority of Pentecostals hold to the belief Catholics aren't Christian. It's not like you don't give them plenty of ammo.

Pentecostals have enough problems of their own to worry about Catholics!

It's really pointless to even argue with Catholics on here anymore.

Wow - you are finally getting it! Now that you are finished fighting - let's start talking!

I think it was pretty obvious you crap on Scripture back in the Catholic thread but this thread proves it and directly addresses the issue. If you don't believe that Scripture is accurate and infallible and of God then the point I argue from is moot and it results into a pissing match because both sides aren't standing on Scripture.

You deny the underlying message of scripture so when someone suggests that scripture is not literal, you freak out because you mistakenly believe we are stripping the Bible of meaning.

I also think it's pointless to "correct" it because again, my tool to correct is the Bible, and when it's regarded in as high esteem as a pile of cow poo it's a fruitless waste of time.

Good - you are not my authority - nor am I yours. I never asked you to correct me. I want to engage in an equal discussion - without anger, name-calling, defensiveness, or one-upping one another.


 

Selene

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Selene,

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

The idea that God is higher than his own self-revelation and communication is asinine on its face. God's 'word' represents God's will and nature. God's 'word' represents who God is and what God wants. God's 'word' represents God. No, God is not higher than his own 'word.'

As I said previously, the only reason anyone takes this low view of Scripture is because it clashes with their theological and philosophical presuppositions and preferences. This kind of subjectivity is born out of a sinful emotionalism and rationalization rather than the objective communication and revelation of God and his word.

What would you know about God and redemption without the Scriptures? Selene, I challenge you and your friends to show me an objective, extra-Biblical, source of revelation outside of the Holy Scriptures. Show me how I can access this extra-Biblical communication in order to see it or hear it for myself.

Hello Nomad,

The Bible existed in the fourth century. God existed before the Bible. Abraham did not have the Bible, and He knew God not from the Bible. He knew God through faith. There is a living Word of God that existed long before the Bible (which is the written word - Scripture). The living Word of God has a name. His name is Jesus Christ and He is not the Bible. It is possible to know God without the Bible. Before the Old Testament was written, ancient Israel knew who He was. Adam and Eve knew who He was. Cain and Abel knew who He was. Noah knew who He was and there was no Scripture written during those times. And they know Him through faith. That is what faith is all about.

In Christ,
Selene