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The Bible

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by aspen, Dec 24, 2010.

  1. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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  2. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    The Bible is indeed the written word of God, but I do not worship the Bible. Nothing should come FIRST before God. God should always be first in everything, and the written scripture is not equal to God. In other words, written scripture should not be worshipped as God in any way. The second person in the Holy Trinity is a person, not the Bible. This second person in the Holy Trinity is not written scripture. He is indeed a person...a living person. His name is Jesus Christ, the "spoken" and "living" Word of God that existed with God and is God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God. Three persons in one God. The Bible (written scripture) is not a person and is not one of the Holy Trinity. We worship God, and we venerate the Bible.
     
  3. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    The written word of God existed long before the fourth century AD and was recognized as such in its various stages. For example, Peter refers to Paul's writings as Scripture in the first century. Nevertheless, this is all irrelevant to the topic at hand.
    No, Abraham and the others you mention did not know God through faith. They knew God through special personal revelation. People like this were few and far between and they were expected to pass on this revelation to others through preaching and teaching. In other words, this kind of special personal revelation was not normative. Everyone did not know God in this way. Those who received this kind of revelation were ambassadors or representatives who stood between God and man.

    God eventually inspired his representatives to write down his revelations and communications. These writings are objective and normative. All Scripture is God-breathed and they are the standard by which all matters of faith and practice are measured. If you object, then I challenge you once again, show me an objective inspired source of extra-Biblical revelation. Where is it, what form does it take, and how can I have access to it? What is this extra-Biblical source of revelation going to tell me that's not already found in the pages of Holy Writ?



    No, that is not what faith is 'all about.' Faith is 'all about' holding all that God reveals as true and acting accordingly.
     
  4. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Hebrews 11:1-2 Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen. Because of it the ancients were well attested.

    Hebrews 11:8-10 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he ws to receive as an inheritance; he went out, not knowing where he was to go. By faith he sojourned in the promised land as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs of the same promise for he was looking forawrd to the city with foundations, whose architect and maker is God. By faith he received power to generate, even though he was past the normal age - and Sarah herself was sterile - for he thought that the one who had made the promise was trustworthy.

    My brother, it was faith. That is what faith is all about. Written scripture (Bible) is NOT God and should never be equaled to God nor worshipped as God

    In Christ,
    Selene
     
  5. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    Your Scripture quotations affirm what I said rather than contradict it. I said, "Faith is 'all about' holding all that God reveals as true and acting accordingly". Hebrews 11:1-2 affirms that faith is trust in God's promises and Hebrews 11:8-10 affirms that the believers actions are based on that trust. You seem to misunderstand your own proof-texts.

    That was a nice attempt at a red herring though. I eagerly await your response to my challenge. I'll refresh your memory on exactly what it entails. This will be my 3rd request.

    "I challenge you once again, show me an objective inspired source of extra-Biblical revelation. Where is it, what form does it take, and how can I have access to it? What is this extra-Biblical source of revelation going to tell me that's not already found in the pages of Holy Writ? "
     
  6. WhiteKnuckle

    WhiteKnuckle New Member

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    The Bible.......

    Written with the hands of man, Inspired by God.

    The way I see it from an artists point of view is that the word of God is art. Let's take music for example.

    When you first learn to play the guitar you first learn the names of the strings. Then you learn that for each string you get different notes. Then you can combine the different notes to make chords. All this time you are learning th basics of strumming with your free hand, or using your fingers to pluck. Each method is a way of combining the groups of notes in order to make a rythm or melody.

    When you first learn a chord you feel it necessary to play every single note in that chord. When you first learn to strum, you feel it necessary to strum every part of the chord.

    Later on you see that you don't have to use the whole chord and that infact the chord is a suggestion for a certain sound and gives you deeper insight to the many other things you can do. Even then after you master the basic chords you learn there's more and more chords and progressions and many more notes that you can use and combine. Even more still, you notice that just the literal basic chords aren't enough for what you're wanting to play. Suddenly you feel very limited. As you notice your limitations you have 2 decisions to make. Learn more or quit.

    The musician learns more, and realizes there's more potential. The musician realizes the depth and potential of every chord and note and progression and can see the roots of each chord and can build and build and one day write a masterpiece.

    The word of God is much the same. Every moral, every story has different roots and different meanings.

    When you first read the Bible most of the things you read you take quite literal. As an example, how many of us as new believers seriously contempated plucking out an eye because we couldn't stop looking at beautiful women? Then later on we learn the roots of the meaning. Those of us who are Christians continue learning in the same way as a muscian. We keep moving forward with our understandings and we can see just how deep the word of God goes.


    Where at one time, we took a meaning literal, at another time we found yet another meaning, and even later still, we find yet a deeper meaning.

    The Bible is the Word of God and it is Spirit just as Jesus said. It's building of structure upon structure and understanding upon understanding. What we once thought was a bunch of notes that don't sound very good, becomes a colletion of brilliance that takes time and patience to understand. We can later see past what we first thought was literal and see the true meanings. Those who can't are still learning or don't believe at all. This becomes a mystery. Just like musical istruments are a mystery to those who can't play.

    So, written by man yes. Inspired by God yes. God's word is still perfect even if man is imperfect. It's hard enough for a man to describe his own feelings and ideas, how much harder for man to describe the actions and thoughts of a God he can never understand?
     
  7. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Wow - that is a great analogy - I wish you would go post it on my blog!
     
  8. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    Nomad, you stated that Abraham did not know God through faith. That is the truth. Below is what you stated:

    Therefore, you are incorrect when you state that Abraham and the others did not know God through faith. You want to know how to know God without the written Scripture? The answer has always been through "faith." It is the same way that Abraham knew God, and Abraham did not have any written scriptures to guide him.

    You are mistaken if you think that I do not believe the Bible is the "word of God." I do believe the Bible is the "word of God." I believe that all the books in the Bible are written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. BUT, I certainly do not worship the Bible as God. I believe that God is three persons in one God. These three persons are the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. It is only these three that I worship....and nothing else. The Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible (written scripture) is not included in that list. The Bible is not to be worshipped. Only God and God alone is to be worshipped.

    In Christ,
    Selene
     
  9. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    No Selene, Abraham did not come to the knowledge of God through faith. Faith is the act of believing or trusting and that belief or trust requires an object. When it comes to faith in God that object is God's self-revelation. Faith in and of itself does not reveal God to anyone. God reveals himself and faith embraces that revelation.

    Now, one last piece of business. Once again I wrote:

    "I challenge you once again, show me an objective inspired source of extra-Biblical revelation. Where is it, what form does it take, and how can I have access to it? What is this extra-Biblical source of revelation going to tell me that's not already found in the pages of Holy Writ? "

    Well Selene, as far as I'm concerned, 3 strikes means your out. I presented my challenge to you 3 times and 3 times you have evaded the issue. It's obvious that you're not prepared to provide an answer.
     
  10. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    So, you are saying that the Bible is wrong? This is what the Bible says about Abraham:

    Hebrews 11:8-20 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he ws to receive as an inheritance; he went out, not knowing where he was to go. By faith he sojourned in the promised land as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs of the same promise for he was looking forawrd to the city with foundations, whose architect and maker is God. By faith he received power to generate, even though he was past the normal age - and Sarah herself was sterile - for he thought that the one who had made the promise was trustworthy.

    I did answer your question. You just don't like my answer. I've already pointed out to you that Abraham did not have any written scriptures to guide him. He did not have any written scriptures to tell him who the one true God is. So, when the one true God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac, Abraham did not question it, and there was no written scriptures to tell Abraham that the one true God would tell people to kill their children.

    If you did not have the Bible at all, and you heard a voice from Heaven telling you to kill your child, would you do it? How would you know that this voice was from the one true God and not from Satan? Apparantly, Abraham knew that it was God telling him to kill his child and not Satan. But YOU...how would YOU know....when you don't have the kind of faith that Abraham had.

    This is what faith is all about. I rest my case.
     
  11. TexUs

    TexUs New Member

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    Selene, there's a difference that you can't seem to grasp between God's revelation and Abraham's justification.
     
  12. Selene

    Selene New Member

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    TexUs, I was not referring to God's revelation or to Abraham's justification. I was saying that the Bible is the written word of God, but the Bible is NOT God and therefore, should not be worshipped as God. That is what the discussion is about.

    God is three persons in one. The Father is God. Jesus is God. And the Holy Spirit is God. God is the only one we should worship and nothing else beyond the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
     
  13. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    The problem is my friend that none of us here can show you the kind of proof you seek, even though we may have it or a part of it in our hearts. Even Jesus was unable to show the Truth to those who were unable to see. You are apparently a student of the Bible, so then, in spite of your misgivings, so consider these verses:

    "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

    Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

    Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? " John 14:7-9

    Philip's problem was not that he was unable to see, but it did not know what it was that he was looking for so as to be able recognise it. It is not seen with the natrual eyes for some who are naturally blind are able to see Jesus.

    "Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he." Proverbs 29:18

    So where is your vision? Consider Paul's vision and ours, if we have one...

    For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.I Cor 13:12

    Consider also these words to the church of the Laodiceans:

    "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

    I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see ." Rev 3:17-18
     
  14. sniper762

    sniper762 New Member

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    spot on, aspen
    but dont expect fundamentalist nor atheists to agree
     
  15. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    Unfortunately, your praise is about as clear as mud. What exactly in Aspen's post is 'spot on?'
     
  16. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Hey Aspen. I can't help but notice people being a it snarky on this thread. I have to admit, I don't agree with you, but I promise I won't be rude about it!!

    I know many people have difficulty reconciling a loving God with some of the things He does, especially in the OT. But as you have pointed out, the difference between God and man is so vast that we cannot possibly hope to even understand the distance, let alone His motivations!
    The Bible tells us that God is good. That He is loving and that He is a just God. These things you believe from scripture, but when the Flood happens, when Sodom & Gomorrah happens, it is beyond human understanding...it is inconceivable to human hearts and minds how this can be love, how it can be justice. And the point is this: is cannot be understood by humans. It comes down to trust and faith. I refuse, despite my soul crying out at some things, to take it into my human understanding and try to dismiss parts of the Bible that don't make sense to me.
    If you so badly need to step back from God's justice in the Bible, then that puts the rest of the bible in trouble of having the same done. If you try and explain away something that is completely from heaven, then by continuation you need to really doubt where it says He is loving, good and just.

    Again...you speak of human perception. I think the real trouble is that we try and put human restrictions on God. You are viewing Him through what you deem right and just and proper. He is God! He is eternal, all knowing and what we know of Him, He was good enough to tell us through the Bible. But the Bible also says that we only know in part. How can we expect to know all His plans? How can we expect to be cognizant to all His thoughts, attributes and wishes? We cannot! And to strive to be so, to expect to be so, is to want to be our own gods....which was the very first original sin! It all comes down to trust! He is the God of the universe, our maker, the very One who was loving enough to send His own Son to die, just so we wouldn't all be damned to hell. If we cannot trust Him enough to see to the big details, like damnation and judgment, why on earth do we claim to trust Him with the small, day to day life details? Why claim to love and trust Him at all?

    I can't remember who said it, but I think it appropriate. "If you're not upset or uneasy reading the Bible, you're reading it wrong." The Bible is NOT there to give us the warm fuzzies. It's there to tell us that we're sinners. Every. Single. One. The question is not 'how can a loving God send people to hell?' the real question is 'how can a completely just God not send all of us to hell?'.
    That's the real beauty of Jesus. And that's how we can completely put our trust in Him. Any God that would come and DIE for us, is one I doubt for not a second....even when it doesn't make sense to my human mind.

    Hope this helps, and at the very least you didn't feel like you were being attacked! :)
     
  17. sniper762

    sniper762 New Member

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    ASPEN SAYS; The majority of Christians believe the Bible is an inspired document, however, many disagree on which perspective the Bible is written from. So is the Bible written from God's perspective or Human perspective? When you read the Bible is it human's commentary on God or the other way around? I strongly believe the Bible is inspired, but written by human hand and therefore limited by human perspective. Every word in the Bible is supposed to be there, however the meaning can only be captured in broad strokes because it is filtered through human culture and understanding of God's revelation.

    Agree or disagree.

    BY SPOT ON, I MEAN THAT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT ASPEN HAS THE CLEAREST PERSPECTIVE OF THE BIBLE.
     
  18. TexUs

    TexUs New Member

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    And this is key and a huge pet peeve of mine which many people simply don't seem to understand.
    We need to STOP trying to put God on a human timeline, stop putting him in a BOX that we humans can understand.
    The Bible says he's good and does no sin. So therefore, Sodom, the Flood, these things were good: and not sin. If he does it- it's good. Just because it doesn't fit our puny, limited, and flawed scope of what we consider good and bad to be (don't you think man has already screwed that up??) doesn't mean we apply that to God.

    Edit- Does this mean "I don't know" should become a more acceptable answer in regards to God? Yes. How does existing eternally work? I don't know. How was wiping all life from earth good? I don't know. How can Hitler be part of his good plan? I don't know.
    I do know who knows though, and I'm OK with that.

    Amen, brother, amen. How undeserving we are that somehow, defying logic, he still loved us enough!


     
  19. sniper762

    sniper762 New Member

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    seems like i hear a hint of christian fundamentalism here.
     
  20. TexUs

    TexUs New Member

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    What's wrong about believing what the Bible says?
     
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