Defend your 'Trinity'- by taking one scripture at a time.

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Is it REALLY true? Care to prove it?


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MatthewG

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John 20: 24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

Here is the whole account.

Previously in one Chapter passing by getting up to John 20:

You have the scriptures: John 14:

5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

The reason Thomas calls the Lord Jesus Christ - My Lord and My God - Meaning finally believing and not doubting and seeing God with the Lord Jesus Christ ~ because of the scriptures of above this is my perception. His eyes were finally open in understanding the truth about God, and the Lord Jesus Christ which was confirmed by touching the body of Christ.

~ it is possible for me to be wrong but this is just my understanding.

~ I personally do not care about the trinity all that much anymore and it has helped me in walk with God and the Lord Jesus Christ to continue to believe.
 
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Wrangler

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NWT John 20:28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!”

I realize this is definitive to you. However, why are you disregarding the Jews who wanted to stone Jesus because he was a man and not God? It seems you are picking and choosing which verses to go by.

To me, nothing is more definitive than Paul saying 'For us, there is one God, the Father,' and nothing demonstrates this more poignantly than Jesus telling Mary that he has not yet ascended to his God in John 20:17. Can you give a rational explanation why the resurrected Jesus would say this if he were God?
 

kcnalp

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I realize this is definitive to you. However, why are you disregarding the Jews who wanted to stone Jesus because he was a man and not God? It seems you are picking and choosing which verses to go by.

To me, nothing is more definitive than Paul saying 'For us, there is one God, the Father,' and nothing demonstrates this more poignantly than Jesus telling Mary that he has not yet ascended to his God in John 20:17. Can you give a rational explanation why the resurrected Jesus would say this if he were God?
So, who are you saying is wrong? The NWT or Thomas or both?

NWT John 20:28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!”
 

Wrangler

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So, who are you saying is wrong?

Are you aware that you cannot answer a question with a question?

Can you give a rational explanation why the resurrected Jesus would say this if he were God?

I am not saying Scripture is wrong but your taking exclamatory statements of an individual in the story as being narration.

A good example is when Jesus says he’ll rebuild the temple in 3 days. The narration clarifies. That is, the Gospel Writer John explicitly puts in parenthesis that Jesus meant his body. Are you familiar with the verse I am talking about?

This is different from Moses being condemned for hitting a stone with his staff to get water, which lacks a clarifying narration. So, getting back to John 20:17, please answer my question.
 

Wrangler

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why does a doctrine have to be in the Bible?

In fact, most doctrines are not explicit teachings in the Bible. This is why most denominations rely on 'supporting' verses for the pre-conceived doctrine. I started an entire thread differentiating 'support' from 'explicit teachings.' As one EOC said, one can 'support' anything using the Bible and that is why one needs the Holy Spirit (and he added, church tradition).

it has to be taught by the apostles!

The Apostles are dead and are not teaching anymore. Said differently, it is sacrilege to assert an Apostolic teaching outside of Scripture.

Acts 2:42
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4

Not sure what you think these verses support?
 

theefaith

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In fact, most doctrines are not explicit teachings in the Bible. This is why most denominations rely on 'supporting' verses for the pre-conceived doctrine. I started an entire thread differentiating 'support' from 'explicit teachings.' As one EOC said, one can 'support' anything using the Bible and that is why one needs the Holy Spirit (and he added, church tradition).



The Apostles are dead and are not teaching anymore. Said differently, it is sacrilege to assert an Apostolic teaching outside of Scripture.



Not sure what you think these verses support?

they show that the truth must be taught by the church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors
 

tigger 2

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NWT John 20:28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!”
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I do not believe this expression by Thomas is an address to anyone as stated by most trinitarians. If he had addressed Jesus with the intent of saying something further (e.g. “My Lord and my God, how have you returned to us?") it might be considered an address. But there is no indication of any intent by Thomas to follow up an “address” with anything further as is normally required of nouns of address. (cf. Matt. 27:46; Mark 15:34; Acts 1:6; 22:8; Rev. 7:14.)

The very fact that the words of Thomas are not a complete statement show that it is probably the abbreviated form of a common expression or doxology and not a statement of identification such as “you are my lord and my god.” Whereas doxologies (praises to God, e.g. "My Lord and my God [be praised]") and other common expressions are frequently abbreviated to the point of not being complete statements (cf. Dana and Mantey, p. 149), statements of identification appear to be complete statements (certainly in the writings of John, at least), e.g., Jn 1:49, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel.” - NASB. Cf. Jn. 6:14, 69; 7:40, 41; 9:17; 11:27; 21:7. Furthermore, when using the term “Lord” (at least) in address to another person, a different form of the NT Greek word is used than the form found at John 20:28 (ho kurios mou).

“The vocative is the case used in addressing a person .... kurie (O Lord), Θee (O God) ... are almost the only forms found in the N.T.” - pp. 14, 15, The New Testament Greek Primer, Rev. Alfred Marshall, Zondervan, 1978 printing.

This is especially true of “Lord” and “my Lord” in both the Septuagint and the New Testament. Kurie, not kurios, is the form used when addressing someone as “Lord” or “My Lord.” (“God,” θee, however, is not so certain.)

We can see a good example of this vocative form, which is used in addressing a person as “Lord,” at 3 Kings 1:20, 21 (1 Kings 1:20, 21 in modern English Bibles) in the ancient Greek of the Septuagint: “And you, my Lord [kurie mou], O King ...” - 3 Kings 1:20, Septuagint. Then at 3 Kings 1:21 we see the same person (King David) being spoken about (but not addressed) in the same terms as Jn 20:28: “And it shall come to pass, when my Lord [ho kurios mou] the king shall sleep with his fathers .... - 3 Kings 1:21, Septuagint.

We also find Thomas himself, at Jn 14:5, addressing Jesus as “Lord” by using kurie. And, when addressing the angel at Rev. 7:14, John himself says kurie mou (“My Lord”)! There are 33 uses of kurie in the Gospel of John alone. Here are a few of them: John 9:38; 11:3, 12, 21, 27, 32, 34, 39; 12:38 (from OT quote-'Jehovah' as kurie); 13:6, 9, 25, 36, 37; 14:5. (Compare these with an actual identification of the lord: “it is the lord [kurios],” John 21:7.)

Therefore, it is probably safe to say that when John wrote down the incident with Thomas at Jn 20:28 and used the nominative form for “My Lord” [Kurios] he was not saying that Thomas was addressing Jesus as “My Lord and my God” as many trinitarians do!

For instances of kurie in the NT see:
Examining the Trinity: KURIE - All NT Uses of "Lord" in Address

For further consideration: After the trinity 'proofs' (including John 20:28) notice how John sums up his Gospel. Does he tell us of the earth-shattering news that Jesus is God?

How could John ignore the greatest, most important news 'found' by trinitarians in John's own writing?

So how does John summarize this incident? - “But these were written that you may believe [Believe what? That Jesus is God? Here, then, is where it should have been written if John really believed such a thing:] that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.” - John 20:31, RSV. (Be sure to compare 1 John 5:5)

Or, as the trinitarian The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985, states in a footnote for this scripture:
“This whole Gospel [John] is written to show the truth of Jesus’ Messiahship and to present him as the Son of God, so that the readers may believe in him.”

Obviously, neither Jesus’ response, nor Thomas’ responses (before and after his statement at John 20:28), nor John’s summation of the event at 20:31 recognizes Thomas’ statement to mean that Jesus is the only true God!
 
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kcnalp

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I do not believe this expression by Thomas is an address to anyone as stated by most trinitarians.
What? lol

Thomas was talking to Jesus and Jesus replied.

NWT John 20:28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!”
 
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tigger 2

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What? lol

Thomas was talking to Jesus and Jesus replied.

NWT John 20:28 In answer Thomas said to him: “My Lord and my God!”
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Please try reading the whole post before replying. Kurie, kurie.

Notice the parallel between 1 Samuel 20:12 (where Jonathan’s words appear to be directed to David: “... Jonathan saith unto David, ‘Jehovah, God of Israel - when I search my father, about this time tomorrow ....’” - Young’s Literal Translation, cf. KJV) and John 20:28 (where Thomas’ words appear to be directed to Jesus: “Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’”). Translators have, in most Bibles, inserted words they think may have been intended in doxologies or other common expressions such as 1 Sam. 20:12.
 
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kcnalp

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Please try reading the whole post before replying. Kurie, kurie.

Notice the parallel between 1 Samuel 20:12 (where Jonathan’s words appear to be directed to David: “... Jonathan saith unto David, ‘Jehovah, God of Israel - when I search my father, about this time tomorrow ....’” - Young’s Literal Translation, cf. KJV) and John 20:28 (where Thomas’ words appear to be directed to Jesus: “Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’”). Translators have, in most Bibles, inserted words they think may have been intended in doxologies or other common expressions.
Isn't this weird watching JW's attack their own NWT! FYI, the NWT also teaches eternal punishment. "They shall be tormented day and night forever and ever".
 

DPMartin

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Yea, as we are one. John 17:22. Does not make the man Jesus God any more than us.
but Jesus translated means God with us according to scripture, doesn't it? thing is you apparently don't know the God of Jesus Christ, therefore don't understand who or what the Lord God of Israel is.

have you noticed in scripture when the faithful encounter an angel of the Lord the faithful address there conversation to the angel with "Lord" most of the time if not every time.

does that make the angel of the Lord, Lord or not?

also what is "of God" like His Word or Holy Spirit is God to anything not God or not of God.
 

Wrangler

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also what is "of God" like His Word or Holy Spirit is God to anything not God or not of God.

I don’t understand what you are asking. Joe Biden of Maryland. Joe is not Maryland. Odd for trinitarians to make that supposition. Language usage.

The son of Joe is not Joe.
 

theefaith

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His angels? That would be a God’s angels, right?

matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 

GEN2REV

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Three pages of comments and only 1 person has voted?

Seems like there should be a lot of Yes votes on that survey.
 
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