Defend your 'Trinity'- by taking one scripture at a time.

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Is it REALLY true? Care to prove it?


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Curtis

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A: No! e. g. "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God (Mark 10:18)
Here Jesus clearly distinguishes Himself from "God" and implies that He (Jesus) is not "good.

The easy refutation of this, is the fact that Jesus says He is good:
Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

Thus it’s obvious when Jesus was called merely a good teacher, that He wanted them to think about it and realize that He is much more that merely a good teacher.

Not to mention the fact that being absolutely and fully without sin, is the epitome of being GOOD!

If being without sin isn’t being good, then there’s no such thing as being good.

Jesus’ goodness and the fact that only God is good, is actually proof of His divinity, not refutation of it.
 

Curtis

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flesh and spirit are two different arenas but, if you are born of man then you are a man with all that a man is, and can do. if you are born of a dog then you are a dog with all a dog is and can do.
And Jesus is Jesus Christ OF NAZARETH, so what? Biden’s from Maryland, Jesus is from Nazareth, what possible bearing does that have to do with the topic?
 

Curtis

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a son singular: perpetual Virgin

Faulty logic.

Gertrude had a son, singular, named Pete.

Yet Gertrude had two other sins, afterward.

The first statement about Gertrude does not make Gertrude a perpetual virgin.
 

Curtis

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.....................................

Immanuel
Should Jesus really be considered to be God because he was symbolically “named” Immanuel (Is. 7:14; Mt. 1:23) which means “God is with us”? No more so than Gabriel was calling himself God when he visited Mary and declared: “The Lord is with thee” - Luke 1:28. Nor did Zacharias mean that John the Baptizer (his new son) was actually God when he was asked, “I wonder what this child [John] will turn out to be?”, and he answered, “Praise the Lord, the God of Israel, for he has come to visit his people and has redeemed them.” - Luke 1:66-68, LB.

[How do we know that Immanu El in Hebrew means ‘God is with us’? We know because shortly after it is introduced in Isaiah 7:14 and repeated in 8:8, the very same Hebrew term is explained in 8:10 - “God is with us” - KJV; RSV; NRSV; NASB; NIV; NEB; REB; NJB; NAB; MLB; LB; etc.]

Gabriel and Zacharias (Zechariah) meant exactly what Israelites have meant throughout thousands of years when saying “God is with us” and similar statements. They meant “God has favored us” or “God is helping us”! - Gen. 21:22; Ex. 18:19; Nu. 23:21; Josh. 1:9; 1 Chron. 17:2; 2 Chron. 1:1; 35:21; Ezra 1:3; Is. 8:10. And Joshua 1:17; 1 Samuel 10:7; 2 Chron. 15:2-4, 9 (cf., Jer. 1:8; Haggai 1:13). But if we insist on trinitarian-type “proof,” then Gabriel must have meant that he (Gabriel) is God! And Zacharias (whose own name means ‘Jehovah is renowned’ - p. 678, TDOTB) must have meant that John the Baptizer is God! – Also see 1 Sam. 17:37; 2 Sam. 14:17; 1 Ki. 8:57; 1 Chron. 17:2; 22:18; 2 Chron. 36:23; Is. 41:10; Amos 5:14; Zech 8:23.

This understanding is seen throughout the Bible. For example, “But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.” - 1 Corinthians 14:24-25, RSV.

Or, in a Psalm many of us apply to ourselves or our friends:
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; for thou art with me - ASV.

The widely acclaimed trinitarian Bible dictionary, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 1986, Vol. 2, pp. 86, 87, states:
“The name Emmanuel [or Immanuel] which occurs in Isa. 7:14 and 8:8 means lit. ‘God [is] with us’ .... In the context of the times of Isaiah and King Ahaz the name is given to a child as yet not conceived with the promise that the danger now threatening Israel from Syria and Samaria will pass ‘before the child knows how to refuse evil and choose the good.’ Thus, the child and its name is a sign of God’s gracious saving presence among his people .... [The name Emmanuel] could be a general statement that the birth and naming of the special child will indicate that the good hand of God is upon us.” - p. 86. And, “The point of the present passage [Matt. 1:23] is to see in the birth of Jesus a saving act of God, comparable with the birth of the first Emmanuel. Both births signify God’s presence with his people through a child.” - p. 87.

Or as noted trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris tells us:
“Matthew [in Matt. 1:23] is not saying, ‘Someone who is “God” is now physically with us,’ but ‘God is acting on our behalf in the person of Jesus.’” - p. 258, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992.

Now try to explain away the fact that Jesus in Isaiah is called THE MIGHTY GOD, and THE EVERLASTING FATHER.

Jehovah is the mighty God:

Jer 32:17 Ah Lord Jehovah! behold, thou hast made the heavens and the earth by thy great power and by thine outstretched arm; there is nothing too hard for thee,

Jer 32:18 who showest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them; the great, the mighty God, Jehovah of hosts is his name;


The mighty God is but one out of many of the instances in which the name God is applied to the Messiah; compare Joh 1:1; Rom 9:5; 1Jn 5:20; Joh 20:28; 1Ti 3:16; Heb 1:8. The name ‘mighty God,’ is unquestionably attributed to the true God in Isa 10:21.
 
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Curtis

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I have to agree that the matter of the Trinity doctrine IS a Salvation issue.

If you do not know God, you cannot be accepted by Him in the end. Proven by many verses in scripture.

The concept of the Trinity is a 3-person god; there is no way around that. The concept of the One God of the Bible is a totally different being. (And this refers to Oneness represented by scripture verses, NOT Pentecostal ONENESS, or any other cult-like doctrine.)

Worshiping a false god IS idol worship and will not be accepted in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Therefore, whichever one believes does elicit the very real possibility of being ultimately rejected by the True God.

I'd say if you're unsure which you believe, it should be at the very top of your list of doctrines to get straight in your heart.

It’s not a salvational issue. The only criteria for salvation is to have sufficient understanding to believe Jesus is Gods son - per Jesus in John 3, per 1 John 3, all scriptures state belief in Gods son - (and the word translated as Lord, in Romans 10, does not mean GOD, as it’s the Greek word Kurios, meaning master).

I’m a trinitarian, but let’s not add to scripture the criteria for salvation.

The son of God is also God the son, but you don’t have to understand the latter at the time of salvation. For most believers, understanding Jesus’ divinity comes after salvation.
 

Curtis

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Yea, as we are one. John 17:22. Does not make the man Jesus God any more than us.

Except Jesus didn’t say if you’ve seen believers in me, you’ve seen the father - but He DID SAY, if you’ve SEEN ME, you’ve SEEN THE FATHER.
 

tigger 2

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The fact of the trinity begins in Genesis, and in the Old Testament.

The famous OT scripture used by those rejecting the fact that the triune Godhead exists, is: God is ONE.
The Hebrew word translated as the word ONE, is defined as one in composite (plural) unity, such as having ONE sheet of plywood, which has THREE layers glued together to make the one sheet.

And in Genesis 1 the Hebrew word used for God is Elohim, which is the plural form of Gods name, which translated literally means GODS.

Thus in the beginning, the plural form of God, Elohim, said let US make man in OUR image,

Ergo, right from the the very first chapter, evidence for one God in three persons exists, which is further proven in the New Testament.

Shalom.
...............................
Elohim is not a name, it's a description or title like 'man,' 'President,' etc.

ELOHIM

Plural “God” (Elohim) And “Let US make man”

Many trinitarian apologists will tell us that the Hebrew word for 'God' (Elohim) is plural because it shows that God is a trinity. For example:

"Among Trinitarian Christian writers it is [often] seen as evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity, a plurality in the Godhead." - Theopedia, "Elohim."

......................................................

That the Hebrew plural is often used for a singular noun to denote “a ‘plural’ of majesty or excellence” is well-known by all Biblical Hebrew language experts and has been known from at least the time of Gesenius (1786-1842), who is still regarded as one of the best authorities for Biblical Hebrew!

Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament (“long regarded as a standard work for students”), p. 49, shows that elohim, ~yhla , (“God/gods”) is sometimes used in a numerically plural sense for angels, judges, and false gods. But it also says,

“The plural of majesty [for elohim], occurs, on the other hand, more than two thousand times.” And that elohim when used in that sense “occurs in a [numerically] singular sense” and is “constr[ued] with a verb ... and adjective in the singular.”

Gesenius - Kautzsch’s Hebrew Grammar, 1949 ed., pp. 398, 399, says:

“The pluralis excellentiae or maiestatis ... is properly a variety of the abstract plural, since it sums up the several characteristics belonging to the idea, besides possessing the secondary sense of an intensification of the original idea. It is thus closely related to the plurals of amplification .... So, especially Elohim ... ‘God’ (to be distinguished from the plural ‘gods’, Ex. 12:12, etc.) .... That the language has entirely rejected the idea of numerical plurality in Elohim (whenever it denotes one God) is proved especially by its being almost invariably joined with a singular attribute.”

Peloubet’s Bible Dictionary, 1925 ed. Pg. 224:


Elohim "is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God."

More modern publications (trinitarian Protestant and Catholic) also make similar acknowledgments of the intended plural of majesty or excellence meaning for elohim. (See the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. v., p. 287.)

Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, describes elohim:

“The common plural form ‘elohim,’ a plural of majesty.” - Unger and White, 1980, p. 159.

“Pluralis Majestatis: Biblical Hebrew

"The term ‘majestic plural’ or pluralis majestatis refers to the use of a plural word to refer honorifically to a single person or entity. It is also called the ‘plural of respect’, the ‘honorific plural’, the ‘plural of excellence’, or the ‘plural of intensity’. In the Hebrew Bible such plural forms are most commonly used when referring to the God of Israel, e.g., adonim ‘I am a master (lit. ‘masters’)’ (Mal. 1.6), although it can also be used when referring to a human, e.g., abraham adonaw ‘Abraham his master (lit. ‘masters’)’ (Gen. 24.9), an object, e.g. gibroteka ‘your grave (lit. ‘graves’)’ (2 Kgs 22.20), ...." - ENCYCLOPEDIA OF HEBREW LANGUAGE AND LINGUISTICS, p. 145, vol. 3, 2013.


The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says:

“It is characteristic of Heb[rew] that extension, magnitude, and dignity, as well as actual multiplicity, are expressed by the pl[ural].” - Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1984 ed., Vol. II, p. 1265.

Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982, Bethany House Publishers, written by trinitarian scholars, says of elohim:

“Applied to the one true God, it is the result in the Hebrew idiom of a plural magnitude or majesty. When applied to the heathen gods, angels, or judges ..., Elohim is plural in sense as well as form.” - p. 208.

Exodus 7:1 (KJV and Hebrew text) shows God calling Moses "a god" (elohim). This alone shows the error of some that the plural elohim must mean a "plural oneness" unless we want to believe Moses was a multiple-person Moses!

And The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan Publishing, 1986, tells us:

Elohim, though plural in form, is seldom used in the OT as such (i.e. ‘gods’). Even a single heathen god can be designated with the plural elohim (e.g. Jdg. 11:24; 1 Ki. 11:5; 2 Ki. 1:2). In Israel the plural is understood as the plural of fullness; God is the God who really, and in the fullest sense of the word, is God.” - p. 67, Vol. 2.

The NIV Study Bible says about elohim in its footnote for Gen. 1:1:

“This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.” – p. 6, Zondervan Publ., 1985.

And the New American Bible (St. Joseph ed.) tells us in its “Bible Dictionary” in the appendix:

ELOHIM. Ordinary Hebrew word for God. It is the plural of majesty.” – Catholic Book Publishing Co., 1970.

A Dictionary of the Bible by William Smith (Smith’s Bible Dictionary, p. 220, Hendrickson Publ.) declares:

“The fanciful idea that [elohim] referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among [real] scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by
 
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GEN2REV

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It’s not a salvational issue.
Here's why it is. If you don't believe in the TRUE God, you cannot be saved. It's actually NOT POSSIBLE. Belief in the TRUE God of the Bible creates an actual signature in your soul that makes you capable of salvation; it is ONE of the requirements of being saved.
The only criteria for salvation is to have sufficient understanding to believe Jesus is Gods son - per Jesus in John 3, per 1 John 3, all scriptures state belief in Gods son - (and the word translated as Lord, in Romans 10, does not mean GOD, as it’s the Greek word Kurios, meaning master).

Since you're not specific about the verses you are referring to, I can only guess John 3:16 is the first, no idea which 1 John chapter 3 verse you mean.

(John 3:16) is not all sufficient for salvation because of (James 2:19-20). "You believe that there is ONE God, that is correct, but even the demons believe this and tremble; and they are unchanged."(Luke 4:41) Demons will not be saved.

Belief in Jesus is not a passive attitude. It's an active commitment. A commitment with the mouth, with the mind, with the heart and with the outward lifestyle. To believe in Jesus is to believe in the ONE God, NOT a 3-person being. That is not even close to a trivial detail. It is a hugely disqualifying factor in one's faith.

In other words, believing that there is ONE God is a good start, but your life must reflect your faith with works (or outward actions, deeds and lifestyle) that prove (to God) that you are following the God of the Bible. (James 2:20) KJV "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"
I’m a trinitarian, but let’s not add to scripture the criteria for salvation.
Deal. I used scripture to construct the criteria.
The son of God is also God the son, but you don’t have to understand the latter at the time of salvation. For most believers, understanding Jesus’ divinity comes after salvation.
This is nonsense. Modern pastors and preachers claim that you are never more 'Holy' than the moment you are saved. Not even the Biblical Apostles believed this.

Salvation is a process. "Fear of (belief in) God is the beginning of Wisdom." (Proverbs 9:10)
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (reverence and commitment)." (Philippians 2:12)
Paul didn't even consider himself to have fully attained salvation, even after all he had done. He stated that he strives toward the mark for the prize. (Philippians 3:12-14)

Look at it like this: If a serial murderer, who has done nothing but evil his entire life on this earth, is to get "saved" by reciting a few words, in a moment of despair, just moments before he is put to death, do you REALLY believe God would allow such a woefully muddied and putrid soul into the Holy of Holies? It makes absolutely ZERO sense.

And if salvation was as easy as saying a few words or believing that God/Jesus exists, then why would the enemy be CONSTANTLY "..as a roaring lion, walking about, seeking whom he may devour"? (1 Peter 5:8)

The road to salvation is a NARROW road and few find it. (Matthew 7:14) Do you believe there are only a few in the world who believe God/Jesus exists?

God says that 'ALL' people know that He exists ... all people. (Romans 1:19-20)

I can tell you without making God a liar, or adding anything to scripture, that ALL people are NOT going to heaven.
 
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Wrangler

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Except Jesus didn’t say if you’ve seen believers in me, you’ve seen the father - but He DID SAY, if you’ve SEEN ME, you’ve SEEN THE FATHER.

A reflection is not that which is reflected. If Jesus were God, he would not have said God is greater than him, knows more than him, sent him, told him what to say, got a revelation from him or after being resurrected, not yet gone to God.
 

tigger 2

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Now try to explain away the fact that Jesus in Isaiah is called THE MIGHTY GOD, and THE EVERLASTING FATHER.

Jehovah is the mighty God:

Jer 32:17 Ah Lord Jehovah! behold, thou hast made the heavens and the earth by thy great power and by thine outstretched arm; there is nothing too hard for thee,

Jer 32:18 who showest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them; the great, the mighty God, Jehovah of hosts is his name;


The mighty God is but one out of many of the instances in which the name God is applied to the Messiah; compare Joh 1:1; Rom 9:5; 1Jn 5:20; Joh 20:28; 1Ti 3:16; Heb 1:8. The name ‘mighty God,’ is unquestionably attributed to the true God in Isa 10:21.

Isaiah 9:6

The NASB says at Is. 9:6 –
“For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”

All Christians, I believe, accept this son as being the Christ. Some will tell you that since the meaning of this symbolic name includes the words “Mighty God, Eternal Father,” then Jesus is the Mighty God and the Eternal Father.”

But there are at least two other ways this personal name has been interpreted by reputable Bible scholars. (1) The titles within the name (e.g., “Mighty God”) are intended in their secondary, subordinate senses. (2) the titles within the name are meant to praise God the Father, not the Messiah.

First, there is the possibility that the words (or titles) found in the literal meaning of the name apply directly to the Messiah but in a subordinate sense. In other words, Christ is “a mighty god” in the same sense that God’s angels were called “gods” and the judges of Israel were called “gods” by God himself (also by Jesus - John 10:34, 35), and Moses was called “a god” by Jehovah himself.
....
And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name is with the understanding that it does not apply directly to the Messiah himself.

This is the same way that many, if not most, of the other Israelites’ personal names (e.g. Abijah, Elijah, Isaiah, Joab, etc.) were meant to apply to something or someone other than themselves. Often these personal names are praising or recognizing the Almighty God.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as “my,” “is,” “of,” etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

For example, the footnote for Gen. 17:5 in The NIV Study Bible: The name ‘Abram’ “means ‘Exalted Father,’ probably in reference to God (i.e., ‘[God is the] Exalted Father’).” - bracketed information is in the original.

But perhaps most instructive of all is the name given to the prophet’s child in Isaiah 8:3 shortly before his giving the name found in Is. 9:6.

Is. 8:3
Maher-shalal-hash-baz: Literally, “spoil speeds prey hastes” or “swift booty speedy prey.” Translated by various Bible scholars as: “In making speed to the spoil he hasteneth the prey” - - “swift [is] booty, speedy [is] prey” - - “the spoil speeded, the prey hasteth” - - “Speeding for spoil, hastening for plunder” - - “There will soon be looting and stealing”- - “Speeding is the spoil, Hastening is the prey” - - “The Looting Will Come Quickly; the Prey Will Be Easy” - - “Take sway the spoils with speed, quickly take the prey” - - “Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey” - - “Swift the Spoils of War and Speedy Comes the Attacker” - - “Make haste to plunder! Hurry to the spoil!” - - “Make haste to the spoil; fall upon the prey.” - - “Your enemies will soon be destroyed.’” - TLB. - - “They hurry to get what they can. They run to pick up what is left.” - NLV.

And John Gill wrote:

“‘hasten to seize the prey, and to take away the spoil.’ Some translate it, ‘in hastening the prey, the spoiler hastens’; perhaps it may be better rendered, ‘hasten to the spoil, hasten to the prey.’”

Therefore, the personal name has been honestly translated in the footnote for Is. 9:6 as:
“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.) to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

The Leeser Bible also translates it:
“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says:
“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

Of course it could also honestly be translated:

“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.”

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[1] “The Mighty God is planning grace;
[2] The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means [a]“quick to the plunder; swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [a]“For unto us a child is born; unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

So it is clear, even to a trinitarian scholar, that Is. 9:6 probably was not intended to imply that Jesus is Jehovah God.
 

Curtis

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A reflection is not that which is reflected. If Jesus were God, he would not have said God is greater than him, knows more than him, sent him, told him what to say, got a revelation from him or after being resurrected, not yet gone to God.
That’s an unlearned reply.

Jesus left Gods form to take the form of a man, and servant, and humbled Himself.

As a humble servant on earth, the father is greater in status, than a humble servant.

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Thus your attempt at rebuttal fails completely.

Jesus demoted Himself from divinity to become a humble servant, but His nature remains divinity.

The overwhelming evidence is that He is the mighty God, the everlasting father, God the Logos, creator of the world that He was born into.
 

Berserk

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Curtis: "The easy refutation of this, is the fact that Jesus says He is good:
Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?"

Nope! You overlook the fact that this verse is part of a parable in which the landowner represents God, not Jesus! So Jesus never claims to be good here,
Curtis: "Thus it’s obvious when Jesus was called merely a good teacher, that He wanted them to think about it and realize that He is much more that merely a good teacher."
There is a good reason why your interpretation is not defended by any academic commentary on Mark.
First, Jesus never claims to be God. The Son of God, yes, but God, no.
Second, your interpretation presumes that Jesus' identity is under discussion here. But His identity is not mentioned in the context! So the obvious implication is that Jesus is denying both His goodness and His status as God. Remember, Jesus felt the need to receive a baptism of repentance from John the Baptist. And no, this fact cannot be explained away by claiming He just wanted to offer a good example. Matthew 4:15 is about "fulfilling all righteousness," not about setting a good example. Again, for Jesus all personal goodness is derivative from God's goodness.
 

Curtis

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This is nonsense. Modern pastors and preachers claim that you are never more 'Holy' than the moment you are saved. Not even the Biblical Apostles believed this.

It has nothing to do with how Holy one is. It’s evident from scripture that new Christians are babes in the faith, on milk - but you want a newborn Christian to be weaned and on meat of the word, before they are born again and become new creatures.

There’s not one scripture that says you must believe Jesus is God, to be saved.

Peter was praised by Jesus for stating He’s the son of God:

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus said belief in Gods son is how to be saved:

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God So Loved the World

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John wrote that belief in Gods son is what’s required:

1Jn 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

1Jn 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1Jn 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1Jn 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

It’s called legalism when you add to the requirements of scripture.
 

Curtis

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Curtis: "The easy refutation of this, is the fact that Jesus says He is good:
Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?"

Nope! You overlook the fact that this verse is part of a parable in which the landowner represents God, not Jesus! So Jesus never claims to be good here,
Curtis: "Thus it’s obvious when Jesus was called merely a good teacher, that He wanted them to think about it and realize that He is much more that merely a good teacher."
There is a good reason why your interpretation is not defended by any academic commentary on Mark.
First, Jesus never claims to be God. The Son of God, yes, but God, no.
Second, your interpretation presumes that Jesus' identity is under discussion here. But His identity is not mentioned in the context! So the obvious implication is that Jesus is denying both His goodness and His status as God. Remember, Jesus felt the need to receive a baptism of repentance from John the Baptist. And no, this fact cannot be explained away by claiming He just wanted to offer a good example. Matthew 4:15 is about "fulfilling all righteousness," not about setting a good example. Again, for Jesus all personal goodness is derivative from God's goodness.

Your attempt at rebuttal ignores the fact that being sinless is the epitome of being good.

If Jesus isn’t perfectly good, he isn’t qualified to die for sins.

And even if your claim was true that He is only the Son of God, and not God the Son, He still is MUCH MUCH MORE than merely a good teacher, which would still need to be pointed out.
 

Curtis

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Isaiah 9:6

The NASB says at Is. 9:6 –
“For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”

All Christians, I believe, accept this son as being the Christ. Some will tell you that since the meaning of this symbolic name includes the words “Mighty God, Eternal Father,” then Jesus is the Mighty God and the Eternal Father.”

But there are at least two other ways this personal name has been interpreted by reputable Bible scholars. (1) The titles within the name (e.g., “Mighty God”) are intended in their secondary, subordinate senses. (2) the titles within the name are meant to praise God the Father, not the Messiah.

First, there is the possibility that the words (or titles) found in the literal meaning of the name apply directly to the Messiah but in a subordinate sense. In other words, Christ is “a mighty god” in the same sense that God’s angels were called “gods” and the judges of Israel were called “gods” by God himself (also by Jesus - John 10:34, 35), and Moses was called “a god” by Jehovah himself.
....
And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name is with the understanding that it does not apply directly to the Messiah himself.

This is the same way that many, if not most, of the other Israelites’ personal names (e.g. Abijah, Elijah, Isaiah, Joab, etc.) were meant to apply to something or someone other than themselves. Often these personal names are praising or recognizing the Almighty God.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as “my,” “is,” “of,” etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

For example, the footnote for Gen. 17:5 in The NIV Study Bible: The name ‘Abram’ “means ‘Exalted Father,’ probably in reference to God (i.e., ‘[God is the] Exalted Father’).” - bracketed information is in the original.

But perhaps most instructive of all is the name given to the prophet’s child in Isaiah 8:3 shortly before his giving the name found in Is. 9:6.

Is. 8:3
Maher-shalal-hash-baz: Literally, “spoil speeds prey hastes” or “swift booty speedy prey.” Translated by various Bible scholars as: “In making speed to the spoil he hasteneth the prey” - - “swift [is] booty, speedy [is] prey” - - “the spoil speeded, the prey hasteth” - - “Speeding for spoil, hastening for plunder” - - “There will soon be looting and stealing”- - “Speeding is the spoil, Hastening is the prey” - - “The Looting Will Come Quickly; the Prey Will Be Easy” - - “Take sway the spoils with speed, quickly take the prey” - - “Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey” - - “Swift the Spoils of War and Speedy Comes the Attacker” - - “Make haste to plunder! Hurry to the spoil!” - - “Make haste to the spoil; fall upon the prey.” - - “Your enemies will soon be destroyed.’” - TLB. - - “They hurry to get what they can. They run to pick up what is left.” - NLV.

And John Gill wrote:

“‘hasten to seize the prey, and to take away the spoil.’ Some translate it, ‘in hastening the prey, the spoiler hastens’; perhaps it may be better rendered, ‘hasten to the spoil, hasten to the prey.’”

Therefore, the personal name has been honestly translated in the footnote for Is. 9:6 as:
“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.) to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

The Leeser Bible also translates it:
“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says:
“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

Of course it could also honestly be translated:

“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.”

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[1] “The Mighty God is planning grace;
[2] The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means [a]“quick to the plunder; swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [a]“For unto us a child is born; unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

So it is clear, even to a trinitarian scholar, that Is. 9:6 probably was not intended to imply that Jesus is Jehovah God.

I highly suspect that all your citations come straight from the Watchtower, and they are notorious for editing the sources the quote.

I know this firsthand, as I read a Watchtower quote from Brittanica on the trinity, where they quoted “ the trinity is not found in the Bible”.

I happened to have a set of Brittanica encyclopedias, so I of course looked the quote up.

What it REALLY said was “ the trinity is not found in just one place in the Bible”
 

Curtis

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Salvation is a process. "Fear of (belief in) God is the beginning of Wisdom." (Proverbs 9:10)
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (reverence and commitment)." (Philippians 2:12)
Paul didn't even consider himself to have fully attained salvation, even after all he had done. He stated that he strives toward the mark for the prize. (Philippians 3:12-14)

Look at it like this: If a serial murderer, who has done nothing but evil his entire life on this earth, is to get "saved" by reciting a few words, in a moment of despair, just moments before he is put to death, do you REALLY believe God would allow such a woefully muddied and putrid soul into the Holy of Holies? It makes absolutely ZERO sense.

First of all, fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom, not the beginning of salvation.

And Paul wrote he hadn’t obtained perfection - he didn’t say he hadn’t obtained salvation.


Also, Sincere repentance results in instant forgiveness, whether it’s a second before death, or decades before.

God knows if the repentance is sincere or not.

When someone comes to faith and repentance, they are saved. Then.

1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

We can know that we HAVE eternal life, now.

Pardon me if I believe John over your theology.

When we are born again, it’s instant, and we know it beyond a doubt.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with OUR spirit, that we ARE the children of God:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Gods spirit lets us know we ARE the children of God, which occurs when we receive Jesus as our savior.
John 1:12, those who RECEIVE HIM become children of God.

There’s no fear when we get saved, we know when we’ve been adopted by God as His children:

Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to FEAR ; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with OUR spirit, that we ARE the children of God:

That last verse is worth repeating, so I did.

I advise everyone to receive Jesus and become a child of God. John 1:12.

Then, at the time they receive Him, not later.

Shalom.
 
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Curtis

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Here's why it is. If you don't believe in the TRUE God, you cannot be saved. It's actually NOT POSSIBLE. Belief in the TRUE God of the Bible creates an actual signature in your soul that makes you capable of salvation; it is ONE of the requirements of being saved.


Since you're not specific about the verses you are referring to, I can only guess John 3:16 is the first, no idea which 1 John chapter 3 verse you mean.

(John 3:16) is not all sufficient for salvation because of (James 2:19-20). "You believe that there is ONE God, that is correct, but even the demons believe this and tremble; and they are unchanged."(Luke 4:41) Demons will not be saved.

Belief in Jesus is not a passive attitude. It's an active commitment. A commitment with the mouth, with the mind, with the heart and with the outward lifestyle. To believe in Jesus is to believe in the ONE God, NOT a 3-person being. That is not even close to a trivial detail. It is a hugely disqualifying factor in one's faith.

In other words, believing that there is ONE God is a good start, but your life must reflect your faith with works (or outward actions, deeds and lifestyle) that prove (to God) that you are following the God of the Bible. (James 2:20) KJV "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

Deal. I used scripture to construct the criteria.

This is nonsense. Modern pastors and preachers claim that you are never more 'Holy' than the moment you are saved. Not even the Biblical Apostles believed this.

Salvation is a process. "Fear of (belief in) God is the beginning of Wisdom." (Proverbs 9:10)
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (reverence and commitment)." (Philippians 2:12)
Paul didn't even consider himself to have fully attained salvation, even after all he had done. He stated that he strives toward the mark for the prize. (Philippians 3:12-14)

Look at it like this: If a serial murderer, who has done nothing but evil his entire life on this earth, is to get "saved" by reciting a few words, in a moment of despair, just moments before he is put to death, do you REALLY believe God would allow such a woefully muddied and putrid soul into the Holy of Holies? It makes absolutely ZERO sense.

And if salvation was as easy as saying a few words or believing that God/Jesus exists, then why would the enemy be CONSTANTLY "..as a roaring lion, walking about, seeking whom he may devour"? (1 Peter 5:8)

The road to salvation is a NARROW road and few find it. (Matthew 7:14) Do you believe there are only a few in the world who believe God/Jesus exists?

God says that 'ALL' people know that He exists ... all people. (Romans 1:19-20)

I can tell you without making God a liar, or adding anything to scripture, that ALL people are NOT going to heaven.

All people know in their hearts He exists, but knowing some kind of creator God exists hardly means anyone thinks that kind of belief saves them, so that’s irrelevant.

There is one God. The Hebrew word is Echad, meaning one in composite and plural unity, as in one sheet of plywood with three layers of wood glued together.

And in Genesis one, the Hebrew word for God used, is Elohim, which is a plural name for God, literally meaning Gods.

And the plural form of God said let US make man in OUR image.

Thus right from the start the scriptures introduce us to the triune Godhead.


Romans 10:8-13 is where Paul says, here’s what we apostles teach on how to be saved.

That if you confess with your mouth, the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved, FOR with the heart you BELIEVE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS, and with the mouth CONFESSION IS MADE UNTO SALVATION for whosoever shall CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD, shall be SAVED.

There it is in irrefutable black and white.

Salvation comes by faith and confession of that faith, and calling upon the name of the Lord,

You want to be saved by works?

Joh 6:27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”

Joh 6:28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?”

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
 
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