Defend your 'Trinity'- by taking one scripture at a time.
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GEN2REV
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you know you should actually read the bible before you pretend to know what it says:
Mat_1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
flesh and spirit are two different arenas but, if you are born of man then you are a man with all that a man is, and can do. if you are born of a dog then you are a dog with all a dog is and can do.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
And 2 different beings are the Father and the son - as all father's and son's are 2 different beings.
you should actually read the bible before telling others what it says:
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
its seems one would have to be dence to think they know more about Jesus then Jesus does:
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh_14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh_14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
or John who was closest to Jesus
1Jn_5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
don't forget the Word was made flesh.
so it seems you don't believe what Jesus says, so why are you here?
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Never said anything like that.
Saying we are one is a saying that still exists today. It means being on the same page. This is not the same as consisting of one being. John 17:22 says we are one with God but that does not make us God either.
22 All the glory You have given to Me, I pass on to them. May that glory unify them and make them one as We are one,
John 17:22
By contrast, yesterday's devotional reading again, clearly and explicitly differentiated Jesus from God, in his unitarian nature. If Jesus were God, he would not say to also believe in him.
Jesus: Now the Son of Man will be glorified as God is glorified in Him.
John 13:31 (VOICE)
14:1 Jesus: Don’t get lost in despair; believe in God, and keep on believing in Me.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
What does Behold in scripture mean?
A marvelous thing!
A miraculous action!
A wonder!
An awe inspiring declaration!
Behold thy mother!
John 19:26-27
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith has he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
Jesus is not asking John to care for His Mary, if so He would have said so, he is not even speaking to John, scripture says He is addressing the disciple, therefore it applies to all disciples.
Jesus is making Mary spiritual mother to all disciples! And all disciples take Her into thier home, And if the apostle John needs a spiritual mother so do we!
What is the family of God without a mother? The mother is the heart of the family! Jesus said I will not leave you orphans! Jn 14:18 He gave Mary to be the mother of one disciple then He does so for all disciples!
As eve was the mother of all the living in the first creation, gen 3:20 so Mary is the mother of all those who live in Christ and the new creation! Behold, I make all things new!
Rev 12:17 our spiritual mother!
Rachel is spiritual mother of Israel!
A type of Mary as spiritual mother of Christians!
The 12 sons of Jacob have 4 biological mothers, but Rachel is the spiritual mother of all Israel!
Matt 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are no more.
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
.....................................
Immanuel
Should Jesus really be considered to be God because he was symbolically “named” Immanuel (Is. 7:14; Mt. 1:23) which means “God is with us”? No more so than Gabriel was calling himself God when he visited Mary and declared: “The Lord is with thee” - Luke 1:28. Nor did Zacharias mean that John the Baptizer (his new son) was actually God when he was asked, “I wonder what this child [John] will turn out to be?”, and he answered, “Praise the Lord, the God of Israel, for he has come to visit his people and has redeemed them.” - Luke 1:66-68, LB.
[How do we know that Immanu El in Hebrew means ‘God is with us’? We know because shortly after it is introduced in Isaiah 7:14 and repeated in 8:8, the very same Hebrew term is explained in 8:10 - “God is with us” - KJV; RSV; NRSV; NASB; NIV; NEB; REB; NJB; NAB; MLB; LB; etc.]
Gabriel and Zacharias (Zechariah) meant exactly what Israelites have meant throughout thousands of years when saying “God is with us” and similar statements. They meant “God has favored us” or “God is helping us”! - Gen. 21:22; Ex. 18:19; Nu. 23:21; Josh. 1:9; 1 Chron. 17:2; 2 Chron. 1:1; 35:21; Ezra 1:3; Is. 8:10. And Joshua 1:17; 1 Samuel 10:7; 2 Chron. 15:2-4, 9 (cf., Jer. 1:8; Haggai 1:13). But if we insist on trinitarian-type “proof,” then Gabriel must have meant that he (Gabriel) is God! And Zacharias (whose own name means ‘Jehovah is renowned’ - p. 678, TDOTB) must have meant that John the Baptizer is God! – Also see 1 Sam. 17:37; 2 Sam. 14:17; 1 Ki. 8:57; 1 Chron. 17:2; 22:18; 2 Chron. 36:23; Is. 41:10; Amos 5:14; Zech 8:23.
This understanding is seen throughout the Bible. For example, “But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.” - 1 Corinthians 14:24-25, RSV.
Or, in a Psalm many of us apply to ourselves or our friends:
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; for thou art with me - ASV.
The widely acclaimed trinitarian Bible dictionary, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 1986, Vol. 2, pp. 86, 87, states:
“The name Emmanuel [or Immanuel] which occurs in Isa. 7:14 and 8:8 means lit. ‘God [is] with us’ .... In the context of the times of Isaiah and King Ahaz the name is given to a child as yet not conceived with the promise that the danger now threatening Israel from Syria and Samaria will pass ‘before the child knows how to refuse evil and choose the good.’ Thus, the child and its name is a sign of God’s gracious saving presence among his people .... [The name Emmanuel] could be a general statement that the birth and naming of the special child will indicate that the good hand of God is upon us.” - p. 86. And, “The point of the present passage [Matt. 1:23] is to see in the birth of Jesus a saving act of God, comparable with the birth of the first Emmanuel. Both births signify God’s presence with his people through a child.” - p. 87.
Or as noted trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris tells us:
“Matthew [in Matt. 1:23] is not saying, ‘Someone who is “God” is now physically with us,’ but ‘God is acting on our behalf in the person of Jesus.’” - p. 258, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992.
First Faith is symbolic?
Then baptism is symbolic?
Now Jesus is symbolic?
what’s next?
Jn 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Haha.
See the thing is people fight a lot about this subject.
It is called the trinity, and it has been taught for probably nearly would suggest 1800 years maybe or more, since the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
There are so many debates. There are many different people in groups of thinking, and thought about the subject of the trinity, and the thing about this is has been a main spread information that is all over the world, and will remain in the world forever and it will always be continually forever debated and fought about.
People who reject the trinity - or whatever; they are deemed heretics and even unworthy of fellowship because of differing view of looking at accounts of Christ Jesus, and the other letters that are found in the context of the bible. Comparing a lot of scripture brings even further an eye opening conclusion of revelation that can be brought for and by praying and asking God to help you while you are reading, and questioning the scriptures because there is no other accurate information that you are going to receive than from the bible it self because it has the evidences that people if they are seeking will find and learn, the truths about God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of God.
To present my view is this, with the bible and was learned.
God, the spirit of God, and the Word of God existed in the beginning. The Word was manifest in the flesh born of a virgin Mary, and was named Jesus/Yeshua, he also had a second name, Emmanuel which means (God with us). Yeshua goes on to grow up a normal life from a child, to an adult involved in carpentry. He also went to the temples and learned from the teachers, and scribes there in the temples and would explain back what He understood from the scriptures to the teachers and they were amazed. Yeshua goes on from the and starts his ministry once hitting 30 years old which is the age according to the law is when a Jew was allow to go and minister (?). Yeshua finds John the Baptist baptizing the the Jordan River, in Israel. John the Baptist ; baptizes Jesus ~ and the Spirit of God fell upon the Lord and He went onwards to preach the good news of the coming kingdom. Yeshua has God with-in him by the Spirit of God ~ And they are one together. Yeshua is a man - Jesus Christ is a man ~ Who was once the Word piece of God that created everything). Yeshua was the Son of God, and the Lord and Saviour of all mankind. God resided with-in the Son of God by the spirit of God, and God through the Lord Jesus Christ ~ Healed many people. Yeshua Christ ended up dying and paying for the worlds population of sin, and reconciled the world back unto himself, by and through the choices of the Lord Jesus Christ who could have refused to do the Fathers Will at any time. Yeshua died on the cross the spirit of God has left, and Yeshua went to Sheol/Hell, and proclaimed a message to the spirit who passed away in noahs day. And God resurrected the Lord Yeshua Christ back from the dead, 3 days later after being in the heart of the earth becoming resurrected and went on to be seen by the Apostles, and 500 witnesses, as the scriptures claim.
So God is the Father of the Son of God ~ Jesus Christ who God was with and lived with-in being once (since they were together in the beginning as (God/the word of God, and the spirit of God.)
This was how Jesus Christ overcame the world because of God, with-in Him, doing the miracles of healings the blind, mute, deaf, dumb, sick, mute, dying, releasing demons, and commanding devils out of people, by trusting in the Father in heaven and that is the reason Yeshua had talked so much about His Father and the importance of whom He is. Jesus could have at anytime rejected God because of being a man, and having being tempted by everything the world had to offer. Jesus Christ never sinned and by and through faith in his Father overcame the World, Sin, Satan, Grave, She'ol/Hell.
All of these are my beliefs and a lot of information that comes from the bible. Do not believe me though go and check for yourself. Thank you for reading and take care.
See the thing is people fight a lot about this subject.
It is called the trinity, and it has been taught for probably nearly would suggest 1800 years maybe or more, since the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
There are so many debates. There are many different people in groups of thinking, and thought about the subject of the trinity, and the thing about this is has been a main spread information that is all over the world, and will remain in the world forever and it will always be continually forever debated and fought about.
People who reject the trinity - or whatever; they are deemed heretics and even unworthy of fellowship because of differing view of looking at accounts of Christ Jesus, and the other letters that are found in the context of the bible. Comparing a lot of scripture brings even further an eye opening conclusion of revelation that can be brought for and by praying and asking God to help you while you are reading, and questioning the scriptures because there is no other accurate information that you are going to receive than from the bible it self because it has the evidences that people if they are seeking will find and learn, the truths about God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of God.
To present my view is this, with the bible and was learned.
God, the spirit of God, and the Word of God existed in the beginning. The Word was manifest in the flesh born of a virgin Mary, and was named Jesus/Yeshua, he also had a second name, Emmanuel which means (God with us). Yeshua goes on to grow up a normal life from a child, to an adult involved in carpentry. He also went to the temples and learned from the teachers, and scribes there in the temples and would explain back what He understood from the scriptures to the teachers and they were amazed. Yeshua goes on from the and starts his ministry once hitting 30 years old which is the age according to the law is when a Jew was allow to go and minister (?). Yeshua finds John the Baptist baptizing the the Jordan River, in Israel. John the Baptist ; baptizes Jesus ~ and the Spirit of God fell upon the Lord and He went onwards to preach the good news of the coming kingdom. Yeshua has God with-in him by the Spirit of God ~ And they are one together. Yeshua is a man - Jesus Christ is a man ~ Who was once the Word piece of God that created everything). Yeshua was the Son of God, and the Lord and Saviour of all mankind. God resided with-in the Son of God by the spirit of God, and God through the Lord Jesus Christ ~ Healed many people. Yeshua Christ ended up dying and paying for the worlds population of sin, and reconciled the world back unto himself, by and through the choices of the Lord Jesus Christ who could have refused to do the Fathers Will at any time. Yeshua died on the cross the spirit of God has left, and Yeshua went to Sheol/Hell, and proclaimed a message to the spirit who passed away in noahs day. And God resurrected the Lord Yeshua Christ back from the dead, 3 days later after being in the heart of the earth becoming resurrected and went on to be seen by the Apostles, and 500 witnesses, as the scriptures claim.
So God is the Father of the Son of God ~ Jesus Christ who God was with and lived with-in being once (since they were together in the beginning as (God/the word of God, and the spirit of God.)
This was how Jesus Christ overcame the world because of God, with-in Him, doing the miracles of healings the blind, mute, deaf, dumb, sick, mute, dying, releasing demons, and commanding devils out of people, by trusting in the Father in heaven and that is the reason Yeshua had talked so much about His Father and the importance of whom He is. Jesus could have at anytime rejected God because of being a man, and having being tempted by everything the world had to offer. Jesus Christ never sinned and by and through faith in his Father overcame the World, Sin, Satan, Grave, She'ol/Hell.
All of these are my beliefs and a lot of information that comes from the bible. Do not believe me though go and check for yourself. Thank you for reading and take care.
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I accept the traditional doctrine of the Trinity. But the OP's challenge is not so easy to eStablish as one might suppose. For example, how would you respond to these 4 questions and the appended answers?
Q: What is the earliest orthodox expression of the Trinity (the first case in which the word "Trinity" is actually used?
A: "God, God's Word [= Christ], and God's Sophia [Wisdom--not the Holy Spirit!--Theophilus, bishop of Antioch 180 AD].
Note: Theophilus is the first Christian to use the word "Trinity" ("trinas"), a word that the Bible never uses. Antioch is one of the most important bastions of orthodoxy in the early church.
Q: Who speaks through Jesus?
A: Lady Wisdom [i. e. Wisdom personified], but never the Holy Spirit!
Note that the Matthean saying in which Jesus claims to be inspired by Lady Sopia is entirely attributed to Jesus in Matthew's version:
"Therefore, the Wisdom of God also said: I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute, etc. (Luke 11:48)
"Therefore, I send you prophets, sages, and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify. etc. (Matthew 23:34)"
Q: Besides Yahweh, which member of the Trinity is actually personified in the OT in the sense of actually speaking as if a Person?
A: Lady Sophia, but never the Holy Spirit! d. g. see Proverbs 1:20-33; 8:12-30.
Q: Would the earthly Jesus approve of being called "God" prior to His resurrection and exaltation?
A: No! e. g. "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God (Mark 10:18)
Here Jesus clearly distinguishes Himself from "God" and implies that He (Jesus) is not "good." Jesus is implying that all goodness derives from "God" and therefore is not denying that goodness is part of His character. And no, Jesus is not fishing for acclamation as God here; indeed, the context ignore the question of Jesus' true identity.
Q: What is the earliest orthodox expression of the Trinity (the first case in which the word "Trinity" is actually used?
A: "God, God's Word [= Christ], and God's Sophia [Wisdom--not the Holy Spirit!--Theophilus, bishop of Antioch 180 AD].
Note: Theophilus is the first Christian to use the word "Trinity" ("trinas"), a word that the Bible never uses. Antioch is one of the most important bastions of orthodoxy in the early church.
Q: Who speaks through Jesus?
A: Lady Wisdom [i. e. Wisdom personified], but never the Holy Spirit!
Note that the Matthean saying in which Jesus claims to be inspired by Lady Sopia is entirely attributed to Jesus in Matthew's version:
"Therefore, the Wisdom of God also said: I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute, etc. (Luke 11:48)
"Therefore, I send you prophets, sages, and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify. etc. (Matthew 23:34)"
Q: Besides Yahweh, which member of the Trinity is actually personified in the OT in the sense of actually speaking as if a Person?
A: Lady Sophia, but never the Holy Spirit! d. g. see Proverbs 1:20-33; 8:12-30.
Q: Would the earthly Jesus approve of being called "God" prior to His resurrection and exaltation?
A: No! e. g. "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God (Mark 10:18)
Here Jesus clearly distinguishes Himself from "God" and implies that He (Jesus) is not "good." Jesus is implying that all goodness derives from "God" and therefore is not denying that goodness is part of His character. And no, Jesus is not fishing for acclamation as God here; indeed, the context ignore the question of Jesus' true identity.
There’s a lesson in the song of the angels!
Isa 6:3
And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Isa 6:3
And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
The fact of the trinity begins in Genesis, and in the Old Testament.
The famous OT scripture used by those rejecting the fact that the triune Godhead exists, is: God is ONE.
The Hebrew word translated as the word ONE, is defined as one in composite (plural) unity, such as having ONE sheet of plywood, which has THREE layers glued together to make the one sheet.
And in Genesis 1 the Hebrew word used for God is Elohim, which is the plural form of Gods name, which translated literally means GODS.
Thus in the beginning, the plural form of God, Elohim, said let US make man in OUR image,
Ergo, right from the the very first chapter, evidence for one God in three persons exists, which is further proven in the New Testament.
Shalom.
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