Scriptures that trinitarians Don't Want You to Know About - #2

[Wrangler]

Sorry - I got my cults mixed up.
As I stated before - the term, "Jehovah" was created from the pen of Spanish monk, Raymudus Martini in his work, Pugeo Fidei, in 1270.

What does this have to do with Scriptures that trinitarians Don't Want You to Know About?

 

[BreadOfLife]

What does this have to do with Scriptures that trinitarians Don't Want You to Know About?

Go back and READ the posts.
This is a side issue that came up.

 

[Curtis]

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD (God Jehovah Isa 44:6; Gen 17:1; Exo 6:3 ), which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)

Translators not only removed God's Name but also removed GOD from latter revisions. Replacing it with LORD because that's what they did.... and that deception did not go far enough so they took LORD and made it into a little Lord ... (Rev 1:8)

Trinitarians tried to mimic the theology of the nameless trinity generic formula. Names were not to be added but rather a removal of them. The removal of the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ was under attack. That attack continues today. (Rev 1:8) at one time did have a Name in it but can you guess whose it was?

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith Jehovah God which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Switched to:​

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD God which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Switched to:
​

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Switched to:
​

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

First of all, the New Testament was written in common Greek, and translated into English.
Nowhere in the entire New Testament is the word Jehovah, or Yahweh found.
Unlike the Old Testament where the Jews were afraid to say Gods name or write it, and so substituted LORD in all caps when the name YHWH was used, the New Testament always uses Theos for God, and everywhere the word Lord appears in the English translation, it’s the Greek word Kurios, which does not mean God, but means master.
Therefore no one replaced the name Jehovah God in Revelation, because those words were never there in the first place. Kurios is the word found in Revelation 1:8, correctly translated as Lord.
Second, who is it who is coming on clouds with every eye seeing Him, in 1:7 ?
Jesus. The same person who then speaks in verse 8 and calls Himself the almighty.

 

[Curtis]

Funny how the very passage you used, the god of Israel said I am YHWH and beside me there is no elohim..

You know that Elohim is the plural form of the name of God, right?

The trinity is found in the Hebrew Scriptures as Jewish rabbis have admitted in the Zohar and other writings.

ECHAD means one in plural unity, such as one cluster of many grapes - and such as ONE sheet of THREE layer plywood - so the phrase GOD IS ONE (echad) is actually evidence FOR the Trinity, especially when coupled with Genesis 1 where ELOHIM is the word for God - in the beginning ELOHIM -the PLURAL form of God - (the ONE God who exists as a PLURAL unity), said let US make man in OUR image.

Note: Genesis 1 doesn’t state that the SINGULAR name of God said let ME make man in MY image.

To review:
Elohim literally translates as GODS in Hebrew, and is the PLURAL, not singular, name of God.
ECHAD as in God is ONE, means one in composite (plural) unity.

It’s ironic that Genesis and the Hebrew Scriptures actually proves the plurality of God, and not the singularity of God.

The one Godhead exists as three persons.

Baruch HaShem Adonai.

 

[BroRando]

First of all, the New Testament was written in common Greek, and translated into English.
Nowhere in the entire New Testament is the word Jehovah, or Yahweh found.
Unlike the Old Testament where the Jews were afraid to say Gods name or write it, and so substituted LORD in all caps when the name YHWH was used, the New Testament always uses Theos for God, and everywhere the word Lord appears in the English translation, it’s the Greek word Kurios, which does not mean God, but means master.
Therefore no one replaced the name Jehovah God in Revelation, because those words were never there in the first place. Kurios is the word found in Revelation 1:8, correctly translated as Lord.
Second, who is it who is coming on clouds with every eye seeing Him, in 1:7 ?
Jesus. The same person who then speaks in verse 8 and calls Himself the almighty.

Hello Curtis,

Hope you are well. A good number of scriptures in the New Testament were quoted from the Old Testament. Most people don't know this but the Jews started to translated the Hebrews Scriptures into Greek about 300 BCE. It's called the Greek Septuagint. Evidence of the Dead Sea scrolls showed Hebrew Tetragrammaton in the Greek translations.

Here is the 400th year anniversary of the King James Bible. If you look up the Greek or Hebrew scripture you will see reference scriptures and more than often are quotes from the Old Testament... Jesus quoted scripture that had His Father's Name in them... Why not you??

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD (God Jehovah Isa 44:6; Gen 17:1; Exo 6:3 ), which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)

New Testament

You can also see how the scriptures were watered down over time and even removing God out of them like (Rev 1:8) Yep.. even God was removed from (Rev 1:8) Now who would do that? Can you think of anyone??? Scriptures that trinitarians Don't Want You to Know About - #2

Here's the Greek Testament of (Rev 1:8) Do you see the (ho theos) that mean the God.. what so interesting is that they removed God to make Jesus look like God. Now, if they would have added the Name of Jesus in there... then that would be very difficult to overcome.

Appreciate your comment though....

 

[Curtis]

Jesus was never in Rev 1:8 ever..... have you ever read Rev 1:1 ? Who gave Jesus Christ this Revelation?

A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John, (Revelation 1:1)

Apparently you’ve never actually read Revelation 1, because Jesus speaks directly to John.

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Who was dead but now lives forever? Jesus.

And you’ve apparently not read Revelation chapter 2, either:

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

There’s other proof that Jesus is speaking in Revelation 1 and 2, such as the description in Revelation 1 of who was speaking to John - and then with each church that He speaks to in Revelation 2, He uses that description of Himself from Revelation 1:

Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Rev 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

Rev 1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Now here’s how Jesus describes Himself to each church:

Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

Compare that to the description of the one speaking to John in Revelation 1:

Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man,

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars:

Repeat that comparison of the description of who is speaking to John in Revelation 1, for each church Jesus speaks to in Revelation 2 - Jesus is who speaks to each of the seven churches.

Jesus indeed speaks in the book of Revelation.

Baruch HaShem Adonai.

 

[BroRando]

A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, (Revelation 1:1) Who gave Jesus Christ this Revelation?

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD (God Jehovah Isa 44:6; Gen 17:1; Exo 6:3 ), which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)

 

[Wrangler]

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the LORD (God Jehovah Isa 44:6; Gen 17:1; Exo 6:3 ), which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)

These verses apply to the Father, who alone is the LORD God, not Jesus. We all understand that when Isaiah said these words, being a prophet of God, he spoke for God and these words did not apply to him. When the prophet Jesus says these very same words, oh my ...

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

These verses apply to the Father, who alone is the LORD God, not Jesus. We all understand that when Isaiah said these words, being a prophet of God, he spoke for God and these words did not apply to him. When the prophet Jesus says these very same words, oh my ...

you forgot Revelation 22:12-13, where JESUS CHRIST is the Speaker:

"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to reward each one as his work deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Words Spoken by Yahweh in Isaiah!!!

 

[tigger 2]

BGTF: “you forgot Revelation 22:12-13, where JESUS CHRIST is the Speaker”
….……………………………..

Post #82 above shows irrefutably that many (if not most) trinitarian scholars themselves don’t believe Jesus spoke the words at Rev. 22:12-13.

Please read it carefully and show me where any of my examples does not show what I have written.

 

[tigger 2]

Curtis post #103:
"Unlike the Old Testament where the Jews were afraid to say Gods name or write it, and so substituted LORD in all caps when the name YHWH was used, the New Testament always uses Theos for God, and everywhere the word Lord appears in the English translation, it’s the Greek word Kurios, which does not mean God, but means master."
...............................................................
The Hebrew texts of the Old Testament always used God's name (YHWH). Even the earliest still existing parts of the Septuagint (translation of OT text into Greek) used the name in Hebrew letters or Greek transliteration.

It is probable that when Christians began copying the Septuagint around 135 A.D. (See Bar Kochba revolt*) they changed the name to kurios (Lord) and also began doing the same for the NT quotes from the Septuagint.
............................
*
Noted Christian Bible historian, Philip Schaff writes: "(A.D. 132-135). A pseudo-Messiah, Bar-Cochba (son of the stars, Num. 24:17), afterwards called Bar-Cosiba (son of falsehood), put himself at the head of the rebels, and caused all the Christians who would not join him to be most cruelly murdered." – p. 37, History of the Christian Church, Vol. II, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1995 reprint.

"It was the generation following the destruction of the Temple which brought about a final rupture between Jews and Christians .... In the third rebellion against Rome [132-135 A.D.], when the Christians were unable to accept bar Kochba as their Messiah, they declared that their kingdom was of the other world, and withdrew themselves completely from Judaism and everything Jewish. The alienation process was completed. Judaism and Christianity became strangers to each other .... A wall of misunderstanding and hate was erected by the narrow zealotries of the two faiths." [pp. 152, 153, Jews, God and History, Max I. Dimont, A Signet Book, 1962.]

"Cochba [bar Kochba] ... tortured and killed the Christians who refused to aid him against the Roman army." - p. 42, Greek Apologists of the Second Century, Robert M. Grant, The Westminster Press, 1988.

"Another Christian apologist, Justin [Martyr], tells how ... Bar Kochba, the leader of the insurrection, ordered Christians alone to be executed if they would not deny and curse Jesus the Messiah." - Ibid.

"After the war the Jerusalem church, once Jewish, consisted only of Gentiles." - Ibid.

 

[Wrangler]

you forgot Revelation 22:12-13, where JESUS CHRIST is the Speaker:

You forget prophets speak the words of God. Isaiah and Jesus spoke the same words of God. That does not make either of them God’s.

 

[BreadOfLife]

BGTF: “you forgot Revelation 22:12-13, where JESUS CHRIST is the Speaker”
….……………………………..
Post #82 above shows irrefutably that many (if not most) trinitarian scholars themselves don’t believe Jesus spoke the words at Rev. 22:12-13.

Please read it carefully and show me where any of my examples does not show what I have written.

"Many, if not MOST" Trinitarian scholars believe that Jesus is NOT the one speaking in Rev. 22:12-13??
This statement is patently FALSE, incredibly dishonest and just plain stupid - even for YOU.

This is a NON-Trinitarian position, which is the MINORITY view in fringe Christianity.
It is MY experience that just the opposite is true. That many, if not MORE scholarly resources testify to the fact that Jesus is the one speaking in Rev. 22:12-13.

SOME of the reputable scholarly resources that disagree with your claim are Matthew Henry’s Bible Commentary, Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary, Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible, Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges, Bengel's Gnomen – to name just a FEW . . .

 

[tigger 2]

"Many, if not MOST" Trinitarian scholars believe that Jesus is NOT the one speaking in Rev. 22:12-13??
This statement is patently FALSE, incredibly dishonest and just plain stupid - even for YOU.

This is a NON-Trinitarian position, which is the MINORITY view in fringe Christianity.
It is MY experience that just the opposite is true. That many, if not MORE scholarly resources testify to the fact that Jesus is the one speaking in Rev. 22:12-13.

SOME of the reputable scholarly resources that disagree with your claim are Matthew Henry’s Bible Commentary, Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary, Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible, Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges, Bengel's Gnomen – to name just a FEW . . .

Cut the senseless vitriol, and please read post #82 carefully and show me where any of my examples does not show what I have written.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

You forget prophets speak the words of God. Isaiah and Jesus spoke the same words of God. That does not make either of them God’s.

Complete rubbish

 

[MatthewG]

Once God is all in all - Christ Jesus becomes the Lord God Almighty.

The one who sits on the throne with hands to grab. Very interesting.

Is He still the expressed image of the invisible God - the Father ?

I would say that Christ Jesus is the Lord God Almighty.

And God spirit lived with-in Christ Jesus by the holy spirit while on earth that fell upon the Son of God when being baptized in the river by Jordan; which is all credited in every account of the Gospel.

 

[Curtis]

A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, (Revelation 1:1) Who gave Jesus Christ this Revelation?

Who’s speaking here, in Revelation 2?

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

Jesus is who speaks to all 7 churches in Revelation.

 

[Curtis]

BGTF: “you forgot Revelation 22:12-13, where JESUS CHRIST is the Speaker”
….……………………………..

Post #82 above shows irrefutably that many (if not most) trinitarian scholars themselves don’t believe Jesus spoke the words at Rev. 22:12-13.

Please read it carefully and show me where any of my examples does not show what I have written.

Did He speak here, in Revelation?

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

You think scholars will admit Jesus spoke there?

He in fact is who spoke to all 7 churches.

And undeniably spoke to John in Revelation 1:10-29

BTW who is coming to earth? Jesus or the Father. Who’s return do we await?

When a voice tells John, He was dead and now lives forever, and says He is coming, that’s Jesus.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

In verse 1:10 the person speaking to John says:

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Who died, and rose, and now lives forever?

Jesus.

Jesus speaks in Revelation.

 

[Curtis]

It is probable that when Christians began copying the Septuagint around 135 A.D. (See Bar Kochba revolt*) they changed the name to kurios (Lord) and also began doing the same for the NT quotes from the Septuagint.

Our English bibles come from the koine Greek manuscripts, that the NT was written in, which aren’t copied from the Septuagint.

 

[Wrangler]

It is MY experience that just the opposite is true. That many, if not MORE scholarly resources testify to the fact that Jesus is the one speaking in Rev. 22:12-13.

So, not even scholars agree on who is talking?

The point is debatable, invoking Romans 14:1.