Another Brick in the Wall

[Looking4Me]

Meat pies are good.... very good... with potatoes and gravy. You should let loose someday...let the feminine side come out... and EAT a sandwich.... You will be glad you did.

Sand-witches??!? Who are they?

 

[post]

If you focus on positive thoughts and solutions and relate to others more positively, then you attract more positive energy, people and outcomes.
The positive or negative energy and thoughts attract more of the same.

but we are to think on whatever is good and pleasant and holy -- and we are to expect persecution and trouble & to be hated by everyone for His sake

so..

 

[Looking4Me]

we Christians do not disagree with that.
pagans accuse us of polytheism because they cannot understand the Word, having not the Spirit.
pharisees ignorantly accuse Christ of blasphemy, because He Himself presents Himself as God:

the LORD is my Shepherd
(Psalm 23:1)

No one is good but One, that is, God
(Mark 10:18)

I AM the Good Shepherd
(John 10:11)​

He is either a liar, or He is God.
He openly declares that He is the only Good Sandwich

choose what you will have for lunch, this day

Jesus is a good sandwich? Certainly not a ham sandwich.

 

[post]

Jesus is a good sandwich? Certainly not a ham sandwich.

a person is only a 'ham' if they don't actually deserve all the attention

 

[Addy]

but we are to think on whatever is good and pleasant and holy -- and we are to expect persecution and trouble & to be hated by everyone for His sake

so..

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. ~Philippians 4:8

and absolutely... we are to expect trials... sufferings... sorrows... and to be hated indeed. We are to count it all as JOY... in all things giving thanksgiving and praise to Christ Jesus our KING.

 

[Looking4Me]

Law of attraction
If you do and think/say negative things you attract more negative energy and people into your life and more negative stuff keeps escalating.
If you focus on positive thoughts and solutions and relate to others more positively, then you attract more positive energy, people and outcomes.
The positive or negative energy and thoughts attract more of the same.
That is why forgiveness is key to break out of negative tailspins and patterns, and work to build a positive spiral instead.

Poetic justice is life/the universe giving just desserts back to someone for what they did
Example: a very gracious lady I know, very wise ethical business woman who cares for people's souls, had a staff member she had trusted and trained to be very successful, turn on her, steal her clients and start their own competing business behind her back. She did not get ugly, angry or take revenge or even sue when she could have. She told this person what they had done wrong, and let them go on because "revenge is the Lord's". She just left it to God, and wasn't going to dwell over it. Then it turned out a very freak accident happened. This person was driving and struck a deer that was so big it crashed through the windshield and killed the driver instantly. My friend was dismayed and shocked but figured it was God's "poetic justice."
=========
Another way of teaching that you stay in the same mentality that keeps attracting more of the same:
Scarcity mentality vs Abundance mentality
Also
Victim mentality vs Victor mentality
Victimhood vs empowerment

Instead of getting stuck in blaming others, yourself, etc the key is forgiving and letting go, to focus on steps you take as positive for the future not negatives you remember from the past that keep you stuck there.

Can you think of some more?

Modelling psychological reactions of human beings is not the same as modelling the gravitational effects of the moon on the earth.

 

[Emily Nghiem]

That goes against Scripture, which says Jesus is a man. Last I checked, man was human and not God. Supposing man is God is the original sin.


For he has set a Day when he will judge the inhabited world, and do it justly, by means of a man whom he has designated. And he has given public proof of it by resurrecting this man from the dead.”
Acts17:31 (CJB)

Dear @Wrangler
Yes and No.
I mean it COMES from God 100% God's perfect will and justice
Even though it is RECEIVED by man.

Sorry this wasn't clear, but maybe this explains the difference in what we both mean.

The people saying Jesus is God mean Jesus was perfectly embodying God's will in man.

They don't want anyone misunderstanding and taking man's will and trying to be as good as God/Jesus by our own thinking or motivations judged externally by appearance and works.

The key is recognizing when we are receiving God's will, where our will FOLLOWS that.

That is why there is this objection to denying Jesus is God, it sounds like not getting that Jesus is God's perfect will and justice incarnated in man uniquely (not like other prophets or teachers who are receiving God's words or wisdom in part, but still not fully 100% embodying God's will perfectly).

Would it help to explain that by 100%
I meant 100% Perfect like God?

That Jesus is God means PERFECT as only God is PERFECT?

Thanks @Wrangler
Basically the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all God meaning praying in the name of
Father Son and Holy Spirit is not
praying from our human will, that is not the part of Jesus we invoke in prayer,
but praying in God's name that is PERFECT
and greater than just human will.

Jesus human will was RECONCILED and ONE with God. We pray for that same reconciliation. So when we pray to God THROUGH Jesus, yes, we are praying to RECEIVE God's "100% Perfect will love and truth" into our human hearts minds relationships and bodies on earth.

And you are also explaining your objections, you don't want anyone leaving out the key point that Jesus being distinct from God in that Jesus incarnated on our level ALLOWS reconciliation with man and God.

You do not agree with emphasizing Jesus being so perfect that it looks like denying Jesus' purpose and process of reconciling human levels.

Nor do others want Jesus' perfect divinity to be denied and misrepresented as "just another teacher prophet or angel" when Jesus was UNIQUE as the only 100% PERFECT incarnation of God's will and law.

Yes, Jesus is unique in being both God and incarnated as man. What being God means is being Perfect. No man is perfect but Jesus.

So these people objecting to your objections don't want you denying this either.

Your way sounds too much like saying Jesus was a good man called by God like other prophets. Their way sounds too much like praying to Jesus "instead of God".

You pointed out where the mutual problem is coming from.

I am saying we all have our biases.
We both come across too far one way or the other. Agreeing that Jesus is both, exactly as you said, there is no conflict.

We agree we mean the same thing.

Thanks for pinpointing where the wording is losing people who see it more the other way.

Can we take this explanation, and share it with others to reconcile over this same conflict others are having?

Thanks @Wrangler
I think you nailed it, but if we can spell out the solution where both sides get it,
then more people may quit blaming each
other for saying it the other way!

 

[Waiting on him]

but we are to think on whatever is good and pleasant and holy -- and we are to expect persecution and trouble & to be hated by everyone for His sake

so..

No! This was Jesus privately speaking to His disciples.

 

[Emily Nghiem]

Saying 3 things together is no kind of proclamation of the trinity by other words. The 1C uses singular pronoun, which is no kind of 3. By contrast, many times Scripture explicitly says God is One alone and there is no other. Again, this is no kind of 3.

I, the Eternal One, am your God and there is no other.
Joel 2:2



Again, saying 3 things together does not make them God. 3 witnesses are not 1 witness.

God is not 3 when you want and 3 when you want. Revelations talks about the 7 Spirits of God. Does that make God 7 or 9? Neither. There is only one God, Jesus’ God. NOTE: Below does not state Jesus is part of the one true God. Nor does it say the Holy Spirit is part of the one true God. It states the Father is the one true God.

John 17:1,3
Complete Jewish Bible

Father ... And eternal life is this: to know you, the one true God, and him whom you sent, Yeshua the Messiah.



Think again. The Fruit of the Spirit is Peace - not tolerating endless dissension. What does Scripture say about those who cause dissension?

Warn troublemakers once or twice. Then don’t have anything else to do with them.
Titus 3:10 (CEV)

@Wrangler
SEE previous msg
I think you and I are getting closer to pinpointing where the conflict is coming

GOD as Creator is infinite
These other manifestations that humans can perceive and represent are finite

We need a better way to clarify
Different contexts

I agree with you that God and Jesus in different contexts are not the same

Jesus is God also has 3 different interpretations.

So they have to match the context.
I will work with you to spell out them out,
Which may better explain the three manifestions of God as
*which contexts mean God the Creator or Father
* which mean the Law/Justice or Word or Authority of God as Lord through Jesus
* which contexts mean the Holy Spirit of God's Love spirit of truth or peace through humanity

Very interesting

Since you have discernment in this, we can work on wording and explaining it where it is consistent to you. Then if post or others agree it sounds consistent to them,
we will have pinpointed where the problem
is coming from.

Both would say: But that is what I meant and was saying in the first place!

But we will explain why it looked like you were saying something conflicting
And THAT was where the objections were coming from

Let's work on this!

 

[Emily Nghiem]

This phenomena of Oneness is not limited to 3. The lack of interchangeably proves the idea of >1 being being ‘AT ONE’ is not what trinitarians want it to mean.

It only means, in modern lingo, that we are ‘on the same page’ or ‘of the same mind.’ interchangeably. hierarchy. Not equal. Not the same.

Yes what they DON'T want
Is people taking this ONEness too far
the other way, and saying it is good enough to follow or agree with God's law/truth from our own motivations will or works.

The real way to reconcile is receiving God's truth, then reconciling our understanding and will to "be one" with that.

Not the other way.

I also run into people worrying that I am taking "man's laws will or ways" and trying
to make that sound or agree with God's.

The key point being argued is
Jesus and the Word COMING from God.

Not coming from man.

We can work on this more.
If you can spell it out clearly,
this will help a lot more people
quit blaming each other for how we say
these things that sound like we are
Leaning too far one way or the other,
causing objections by those leaning
more the other way!

 

[Emily Nghiem]

it is not flesh and blood, but the Spirit of God which reveals these things; may the blind receive sight:

I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them
(Exodus 20:12)

may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(1 Thessalonians 5:23)

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.
(Ephesians 5:25-27)

Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
(Acts 20:28)

knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you.
(2 Corinthians 4:14)

in three days I will raise it up
(John 2:19)

No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself.
I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.
(John 10:18)​

• it is the LORD who sanctifies us
• it is the God of peace Himself who sanctifies us
• it is Christ who sanctifies us
• the church is purchased by God
• the church is purchased by Christ
• we are bought by the blood of God
• we are bought by the blood of Christ
• God gave Himself for us
• Christ gave Himself for us
• God presents us to Himself
• Christ presents us to Himself
• God raises the Lord up
• Christ raises Himself up

to be sure the hypostatic union is a great mystery - but it is the truth, and denying it is rejecting clear scripture.
the perfect humanity and perfect deity of Christ is not a disputable part of Christianity; it is the very core of Christianity

Dear @post
And @Wrangler also
has spiritually gifted discernment.
And is called to point out corrections as well.

If we listen to each other's objections and corrections, by the time we spell out where the problems were coming from,
this will help other people as well.

So God's universal truth, which you are right
that it comes from GOD not from MAN,
will be clearly received.

We are just attempting to explain it more
clearly in our human terms,
where it isn't misperceived but we
Pinpoint (using more careful language)
where and why the objections were
causing rejection.

Thank you @post
Please keep praying and sharing
what you see. This helps pinpoint
where and why miscommunication
is causing problems. And yes, it is
from human perception which is
imperfect and biased. Thanks!

 

[Emily Nghiem]

but we are to think on whatever is good and pleasant and holy -- and we are to expect persecution and trouble & to be hated by everyone for His sake

so..

Yes and No
@post
Some of this reaction IS projected by others for their own grief process.
Some of what we get is from our own
bias and process.

All the arguments I've seen get stuck are
A mutual mix of both.

First step is to separate how much is my problem vs the other person having their issues to fix.

It is rarely all one way.

True, at first when introducing change, even positive, the initial reaction can be negative resistance to change.

And especially God's healing change through Christ will trigger any resistant or rebellious negative energy to attack.

That is one thing.

On another level, if we have our own conflicts or places we haven't resolved or forgiven.
Then if we go criticize others and tell them to change, they in turn criticize us and tell us what we need to correct as well!

That is the part I have found is mutual.

Since both sides are imperfect, for each thing we see or want to change, so does the other side see something imperfect they are seeking to change.

We have an opportunity to correct both by sharing and improving on both sides.

But if we refuse and insist it is only onesided, then the other side says the same!

Funny how both sides will claim they are the ones following God's will and truth,
"Getting persecuted by others".

 

[Emily Nghiem]

but we are to think on whatever is good and pleasant and holy -- and we are to expect persecution and trouble & to be hated by everyone for His sake

so..

^ @post
Were you thinking and dwelling on what is good pleasant and holy when
thinking of @Wrangler ?

If you or he come at each other
already THINKING the other person
is not led by God but projecting some
other thing motivated or given by man
not God, was that an imperfect human bias?

Or was it purely focused on
what is good and holy coming from God?

 

[Wrangler]

And.

And perhaps, if you submit, the grace of God will come to you.

 

[Wrangler]

^ @post
Were you thinking and dwelling on what is good pleasant and holy when
thinking of @Wrangler ?

If you or he come at each other
already THINKING the other person
is not led by God but projecting some
other thing motivated or given by man
not God, was that an imperfect human bias?

Or was it purely focused on
what is good and holy coming from God?

I watched a video recently of a retired pastor who finally rejected the trinity and pointed out that trinitarianism does not bring out the fruit of the Spirit. post shows this is true.

 

[Wrangler]

Yes and No.

Emily, you are embracing contradictions here. For the same stripe of the zebra, it is Yes or No being one color or the other.

The people saying Jesus is God mean Jesus was perfectly embodying God's will in man.

If that is what they actually meant, there would be no rift on this point. However, that is not what they mean.

 

[Wrangler]

Nor do others want Jesus' perfect divinity to be denied

This violates the 1C & 2C.

 

[Emily Nghiem]

I watched a video recently of a retired pastor who finally rejected the trinity and pointed out that trinitarianism does not bring out the fruit of the Spirit. post shows this is true.

Bingo @Wrangler
I finally had a discussion with a UU minister on why the movement started to reject the "Trinity"

I hold that this is Universal and the point is not to judge but the opposite, to acknowledge this pattern is found in all religions because man is made in the image of God and this relationship reflects in every system that attempts to represent the individual and the RELATIONSHIP to the whole or collective level.

This ministry explained the rejection was against the DOGMA not the actual content of "the Trinity".

He explained it as I do, that in secular practical terms it means God's Truth Peace and Justice.

This is divine or perfect where it comes from GOD. Which is why there is such emphatic insistence on the three being "God".

The corruption of man's truth, justice and peace is not in line.

So that is where I could reconcile what I had been saying that the UU principles refer to God/Christ/Holy Spirit as
Free and responsible search for TRUTH and meaning
Respect for CONSCIENCE
and the goal of World Peace through the Interconnected web of life uniting humanity

This is where the "Trinity" manifests in humanitarian terms.

I used to run into conflicts with UU rejecting the "Trinity" but this minister made it clear it was the conditional Dogma as a religious test to condemn others intolerant of other beliefs, which motivated seeking a more Universal way of teaching the same message

We were able to reconcile this does NOT require "rejecting the Trinity" just the dogma.

Still, the UU and JW oppose it.

I tolerate both views for or against,
which appears to be a test of tolerance
More than a test of faith.

 

[Wrangler]

Which is why there is such emphatic insistence on the three being "God".

How do you defend limiting God to 3 in light of John 17:22 & 1 John 3:1; we saints are all children of God with God's same divine spirit in us?

I tolerate both views for or against,
which appears to be a test of tolerance
More than a test of faith.

Indeed. Trinitarianism is so intolerant, it would rather people - like me - not come to Christ - if 3 = 1 is not also believed (even though it is not in Scripture), thereby violating Romans 14:1

 

[Emily Nghiem]

Sand-witches??!? Who are they?

Birthing people who scream sexism
If you demand they make you one?