When You See the Abomination of Desolation Stand in the Holy Place

[n2thelight]

The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.

Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and the determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The Holy place is the place that the temple sits, and this is the subject for the very first, when the buildings of the temple were observed by the disciples, and the question of what it would be like at His second advent. This is where the desolation [Satan, the Antichrist] shall sit on mount Zion, making his abominations, or statements that he is the Christ.

The world will be deceived when Satan claims himself to be Christ, for he does have supernatural powers, and he will use them to to draw the peoples of the world to come to peace. He will say, I am Jesus whom ye have been waiting for, and I have come to bring peace to the world, and the world will be brought to peace and prosperity by Satan, the Antichrist.

 

[Curtis]

Let the reader understand. What should they understand?

Matthew 24:15-30 KJV
15) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)
16) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18) Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25) Behold, I have told you before.
26) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The AOD,
Then the great tribulation
Then Jesus comes.

This is end of age.

People will be able to see it, and respond with material action.

This is visible behavior.

There are a number of different understandings of what the Abomination of Desolation is. What's yours?

Mine is basically that the Man of Sin, the one who will lead the empire of the beast, will sit in the rebuilt Jewish temple, proclaiming himself God.

Do you agree?

Much love!

The tribulation is divided into the tribulation (general tribulation) and the great tribulation - which we need to keep in mind in Matthew 24.

Also keep in mind that the AOD occurs in verse 15, which we know is in the middle of Daniels 70th week, and Jesus’ second coming and gathering together of the elect, occurs in verse 30 - thus He returns right after the mid trib point and gathers the elect.

He says that right after the AOD appears there shall be GREAT tribulation - confirming that the second half of the trib is indeed the great tribulation, then He says that after THE tribulation of those days - not the great tribulation, but the general tribulation- then shall we see the son of man come in the air and gather His elect from the four corners of the earth - thus establishing that His return is AFTER the general tribulation, and BEFORE the great tribulation - right smack in the middle of the tribulation period.

I think He said it that way, because saying that He returns after the AOD is revealed, doesn’t tell us how long after the AOD appears that He returns - that could be 3/4 of the way through the 7 years for all we know - but He lets us know it will be right after the general tribulation, and just before the great tribulation, at exactly the mid trib point in time.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Curtis]

In the account of the Transfiguration of Christ we see how the spirit is put on around the body. Spiritual death is being separated from the image of God. This corruptible flesh cannot handle the transfiguration aspect of the image. That is why we are given the Holy Spirit instead of being in the full image of God.

Spiritual death means being separated FROM God, not just from His image.

Shalom

 

[Waiting on him]

Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and the determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

so odd that Jesus performed all of this.

 

[Brakelite]

so odd that Jesus performed all of this.

KJV Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
From 27AD to 31AD in person, from 32AD to 34AD through His apostles. Total 7 years.
He sent them first to the Jewish nation (Matthew 10:5, 6) because His chosen people still had three and a half years remaining of their 490-year opportunity to repent as a nation.
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
The midst of the week...3½ years from baptism to Calvary... In the midst of the 7 year/prophetic week. Through His final self sacrifice on Calvary, through the shedding of His blood, He put an end to the sacrificial system and the earthly priesthood.

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,
70AD. The temple destroyed.

The theory that this prophecy applies to the Antichrist is borderline blasphemy seeing it is one of the greatest confirmations of the ministry of Christ and the validation of Him being the Messiah

 

[Waiting on him]

KJV Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
From 27AD to 31AD in person, from 32AD to 34AD through His apostles. Total 7 years.

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
The midst of the week...3½Through His final self sacrifice on Calvary, through the shedding of His blood, He put an end to the sacrificial system and the earthly priesthood.

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Amen! How can do many remain so empty?

 

[Waiting on him]

KJV Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
From 27AD to 31AD in person, from 32AD to 34AD through His apostles. Total 7 years.

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
The midst of the week...3½Through His final self sacrifice on Calvary, through the shedding of His blood, He put an end to the sacrificial system and the earthly priesthood.

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:26 KJV
[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

[Brakelite]

so odd that Jesus performed all of this.

He's the only one who could.

 

[Curtis]

so odd that Jesus performed all of this.

Jesus does none of that - read Daniel 9 - it’s the prince who comes after messiah is cut off in death.

 

[marks]

We see it differently. Concerning the rapture… a question I have is if God gathers unto Himself His Spirit and His breath…as proposed by the rapture theology that God’s Spirit and His breath of Life is removed and gathered (raptured unto God), how will people be walking around like proposed in movies like “left behind”? Job 34:14-15
If he (God) set his heart upon man, if he(God) gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; [15] All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

in the movies those raptured and snatched out, their bodies turn to dust. Then how, by what spirit and breath do those “left behind” keep from “all flesh shall perish together” also turning to dust?

I don't really understand your question. Are you saying everyone will die at the same time?

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

Jesus does none of that - read Daniel 9 - it’s the prince who comes after messiah is cut off in death.

The whores and publicans went in ahead of you.

 

[marks]

Why does the Bible have so many different ways to indicate 1260 days? I suspect that the description itself is intended to convey meaning.

Chuck Missler used to speak of the Bible having a similar property to an hologram. The hologram image has an interesting property compared to a photograph.

If you take a photo of me and use a pair of sissors to cut out my tie, then when you look at the photo, you will never again see what my tie looked like. But in an hologram, if you snip out a bit, then when you look directly at that part, the missing piece is gone, but when you look from a different place, you can "see around" the missing part, and still see what was there, albeit not as clearly.

His idea was that the Bible is like this. There the information is all given in so many places and ways, it becomes self-correcting. In my studies of the Bible, I have to agree with this, as I've found so much consistency in it's message, whether the Gospel or prophecy.

One more thing, counting months is less precise than counting days, and counting years is less precise than either of these two. Perhaps the difference in precision conveys meaning also. In other words, converting "time, times, and half a time" to "1260" days might be missing the point. The units of measure, might be significant with regard to the culture in which the counting is done. Which culture keeps track of the moon? Which culture keeps track of the days? Which culture is interested in the years?

I agree, we should note carefully, "1260 days" and "42 months".

The Jews of that day used a 30 day month, and a 360 day year. There is speculation that the earth's orbit was affected by something at that time, changing our year from 360 days to the current 364.25 days.

Do you think of these time measurements to be that, time measurements, but applied to different peoples? Or that they are not actually time measurements, but are representing something else?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The word angel means messenger. According to Genesis 1:14, the stars are the heavenly messengers:

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:


The sons of God are the earthly messengers.


That was my point, that humans fit better in Genesis 6 than stars.

I think maybe you are a little mixed up on what I'm saying.

I'm not talking about stars being the "sons of God" in Genesis 6, if that's what you are thinking.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Revelation 14 is the winepress. The final act of God on earth before the Millennium. The same act as the battle of Armageddon.

I'd sooner say an act within the Battle of Armageddon.

The Mount of Olives split apart, the Israelites flee throught it, per Zechariah.

Then, just remember what happened when the Red Sea opened, and the Israelites fled through it.

The winepress of God's wrath.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Ah yes...Does Israel mean all the physical descendants of Abraham? The Pharisees boasted of being children of Abraham and the generation who died in the desert in Moses time were also physical children of Abraham. Does this mean they were children of Abraham in the sense that the NT means, ie, Paul? I don't think so. 'Israel' means 'he who prevails'

We are dealing with spiritual matters here not physical genetics and scripture requires this is understood if we don't want to be barking up the wrong tree.

So then, the "seed of Israel", to your thinking, does not mean the physical descendants of Israel?

Much love!

 

[marks]

14 And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; {i.e. years in keeping with other Daniel prophecies}, then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."

OK, I remember rightly. Thank you.

With such disparate ways to interpet the Bible, I find it not unreasonable that we should reach different conclusions.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I would love to compare my notes with your notes! My views have changed through the years, so whatever position you may hold, I probably held to it, as well, at one time.

"But before all these?" I'd have to check, but I believe it was a reference back to the main subject, which was the destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD). It was not a reference to anything said immediately prior, but rather, to the beginning statement, that the temple would be completely annihilated, stone by stone.

It reads, paraphrased, "but before the destruction of the temple and the aftermath" there will be the labor pains, presaging the complete destruction of Jewish religion. Jewish religion would actually be used to persecute Jesus' disciples. The result would be age-long judgment against those who continue to practice the Jewish religion.

That's the line where the record diverges. In Matthew, he continues with the prophecy related to what come after these birth pangs. In Luke, he switches to, "but before all these", that is, things that happen before the birth pangs.

While you don't have my notes, you have me.



Much love!

 

[marks]

Yes, I used to be heavy into esoteric meanings in Scriptures, and I suppose I never will completely get away from them. There is something to God knowing the future when writing to people in the past. There are layers of truth, designed to fit all those later who would read it into their own historical contexts.

But to properly interpret a Scripture passage, certain inviolable principles are involved. Context is key--not repeat phrases that obtain some mystical quality from one biblical book to another. If the same phrase is used by the same people they are indeed likely to see the link. But phrases can also be used in different contexts, and this should not be ignored.

So proper interpretation comes first, and then application to different situations. And yes, I'm sure that there is a pattern in the 7 churches that applies to other church generations. Every generation probably has each of the 7 churches in their own time. And it may even be that each church represents different eras of development in each nation, and perhaps even in the world.

I'd agree with every thing you've said, here, emphatically, even, except that I've not been so much into the esoteric way of looking at the Bible. I do think that there are layers of meaning unsaid, to be recognized by those to whom it is written.

Matthew 10 is an excellent example of that for me, Jesus' instructions to the disciples as He sends them out. Except as I read those instructions, I see it go much further than those disciples, going all the way into the great tribulation.

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

I'd agree with every thing you've said, here, emphatically, even, except that I've not been so much into the esoteric way of looking at the Bible. I do think that there are layers of meaning unsaid, to be recognized by those to whom it is written.

Matthew 10 is an excellent example of that for me, Jesus' instructions to the disciples as He sends them out. Except as I read those instructions, I see it go much further than those disciples, going all the way into the great tribulation.

Much love!

Paul concluded, this was completed
Colossians 1:23 KJV
[23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

 

[Randy Kluth]

That's the line where the record diverges. In Matthew, he continues with the prophecy related to what come after these birth pangs. In Luke, he switches to, "but before all these", that is, things that happen before the birth pangs.

While you don't have my notes, you have me.



Much love!

Okay, but I don't understand your view here? So I'll just run through the passage quickly, and insert paraphrasing and commentary so you know how I take it. The biggest problem I see, in opposing my own position, is that the temple's destruction is not viewed as the major element in the Discourse. I do.

Matt 24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

This is the 70 AD event, in which both Jerusalem and the temple are desolated.

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Again, the main event concerned the 70 AD event. The question about its relationship to the 2nd Coming is still focused on 70 AD as the main event in the Discourse.

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

These "birth pains" precede and presage the main event, the 70 AD event--the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. These "birth pains" include rumblings of war, including Roman military activities in the region. Natural disasters would also take place at that time, indicating God's displeasure with Israel and elsewhere. As such, these "birth pains" *preceded* the 70 AD event.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

This is an elaboration of the "birth pains," or a further explanation of the same. The natural disasters and threat of military action threatening Israel would include other indications of God's displeasure with Israel's behavior. Israel would persecute Jewish Christians. And that would be part of the cause of the impending judgment in 70 AD. Even as the Jewish unbelievers persecute the Christians, those same Christians would be testifying to them about the Kingdom of God and its consequent judgments.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

The "abomination of desolation" is a direct consequence of Jewish ungodliness and wickedness, including the persecution of Christians. The AoD refers to Dan 9.26-27, where Messiah is cut off, and there follows the desolation of both Jerusalem and the temple. It is specifically called the "abomination of desolation." Although the term is applied elsewhere in Daniel to Antiochus 4, as well, here in Dan 9, the term is applied only to the Roman desolation in 70 AD.

Where a lot of Christians get confused is in their failure to see that Jesus applied this Jewish desolation to the entire NT age, rendering it the Jewish Diaspora of the NT age. It is Israel's lack of a homeland and lack of status with God throughout the entire Church age. There is a Christian remnant among the Jewish People. But largely, the Jewish People remain obstinate and opposed to Christian conversion until judgment comes at the return of Christ.

Thus, the "Great Distress" Jesus speaks of concerns the Jewish People, and not yet of the international Church. Jesus was speaking while the Law was still in effect, and the international Church had not yet come into being. The only nation of God at that time was Israel, and Christian nations had not yet come into being.

I trust this makes my position clear? What do you think? I get a lot of opposition, but not much honest feedback, because it doesn't appear to be "politically correct" at the present time. But it was the predominant view in the Early Church, I believe.