The Ones Who Are Left…

[Timtofly]

The "dead" of Revelation 20:5 are the same "dead" that stand before God's Throne at the GWT Judgment...

Rev 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
KJV

Why are they still called "the dead" if they are standing... before God, as written there??? Hmm....?

Before you believed on Jesus Christ as your Saviour, what kind of condition was your 'soul' in?

Why did Jesus say the scribes and Pharisees were like whited tombs which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of 'dead' men's bones?

Why did Jesus tell the one whose relative died, that he wanted to bury before following Jesus, to let the 'dead' bury the dead?

You'll never understand that, because your mind is too wrapped up in your flesh and this world.

So when it says the dead do not live again for 1000 years, you see that as living during the 1000 years?

Do the dead live during the 1000 years or not?

 

[Timtofly]

What Lord Jesus said in John 5:28-29 flows perfectly with the rest of His Word. If you think it's a difficult passage to understand, then that actually points to your following men's doctrines, and not God's Word on the matter. In other places in God's Holy Writ we are shown about those who have died, and given what is going to happen after death in the flesh, and also in Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20. Apostle Paul even went into detail about that future time, and even the body 'type' the resurrection is. So there's really no excuse to not understand it for the Bible student that actually heeds God in His Word, and disciplines theirself in it.

John 5:24-29
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him That sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself;
27 And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.

That above, when did that happen? It happened when Jesus died on the cross. The graves were opened and many bodies of the saints arose and came out of their graves and appeared to many in Jerusalem (Matthew 27:50-53). In 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:5-6, we are shown about Jesus after The Father raised Him from the dead went and preached The Gospel to the "spirits in prison" who were disobedient back to the time of Noah. That was actually a prophecy in Isaiah 42:7 that He would do that. That is what the above Scripture in John 5 is about.

But the next verses are about the day of Christ's future 2nd coming...


28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

That above Scripture is for the day of His coming on the 7th trumpet, which is when He gathers His Church from both heaven and those of His still alive on earth.

Notice that BOTH types of resurrection will happen on that day.

So who is correct, what Lord Jesus said there, or what men say?

I choose to believe what Lord Jesus said there, and not men's doctrines. And that has absolutely nothing to with men's Amill ideas.

Lazarus was also raised from the dead into a permanent incorruptible physical body, without a sin nature. Jesus is the Resurrection and Life, and raising Lazarus from the dead proved that.

All the OT saints came out of their graves with permanent incorruptible physical bodies, and joined Lazarus after they heard Jesus on the Cross say, "It is finished."

The hour of resurrection started with Lazarus. It is ongoing. Every time a soul in Christ leaves this body, the soul enters a permanent incorruptible physical body. They are all present in Paradise. They have been since Jesus ascended Sunday morning after telling Mary He was about to ascend. He led those firstfruits into Paradise Himself, presenting them to God as part of being the Atonement for sin and the Resurrection and the Life. Can I prove that to any one? Probably not, but it is true, because nothing in Scripture contradicts those points.

The dead do stand before the GWT, after heaven and earth have fled/passed away. They are taken out of sheol and Death. They are sent to the lake of fire, eternal damnation.

As for these corruptible bodies, they are just dead flesh. Not zombies, but in God's view dead in sin, which is death. An incorruptible body is one that is alive and without sin, or a sin nature. That is the only type of body God gives at an eternal life physical resurrection. God does not raise the dead, just to live again in sin nature corruptible bodies. That is not the definition of being the Resurrection and the Life.

This is what Jesus said to Mary:

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Jesus said people walking around were dead, even though alive. This is Paul's corruptible fleshly body. Then He said, "whoever lives and believes on me will never die." Physical death is not death at all. It is the soul going from one corruptible body to one incorruptible body. No death, no waiting, always living in a physical body. Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life. And those alive can never prevent that from happening nor get there ahead of that happening.

Call that man's doctrine, but it comes from Christ and Paul. Both were men.

 

[Naomi25]

It's no difference as it's not just the dead in Christ ,at death ALL return to the Father at the return of Christ , at the 7th trump 7th vial and 7th seal (by the way satan comes at 666 ) back on subject ,we will not receive a resurrected body as we already have two bodies

The weeds won't be destroyed until after the millennium ,and then only if they follow satan again .The weeds have a mortal soul that's why they are called the dead but they will have a chance to change that status during that day when they will be taught the true Word of God

I’m sorry, but pretty much nothing above makes sense.
“At death ALL return to the Father AT the return of Christ”. So….at the return of Christ…a point in the future…is the same as when people die, all throughout history? How does that make sense? Unless your positing the idea that as soon as a person dies they are ‘outside’ of time, and the two become one and the same. Which is interesting, but hardly confirmable. And yes, its true that ALL will stand before the judgment seat of God, but there is a clear delineation in scripture between the two; saved and unsaved, so I’m not sure we can biblically support the notion that we’ll all be taken in one large group. It may very well be so, but the bible does not portray it.

“We will not receive a resurrected body as we already have two bodies”. I mean…what? Apart from the fact that Paul spends a good deal of time outlining the sort of resurrection body we will have…please, explain to me the two bodies we have now.

One could say that yes, the weeds won’t be destroyed until after the millennium, as the millennium is now, which makes Christ’s return the end of the age. But…that’s rather beside the point at present. The fact is, your second paragraph is FULL of assumptions and assertions that the parable doesn’t allow. There is NO mention of the millennium, simply “the end of the age”…that is when the weeds will be burnt. If we want to determine when that is, we must go to other passages. The idea that the weeds have ‘mortal souls’ is also NOT found in the passage, nor are they called ‘dead’ in it. It does NOT mention that they will have a ‘chance to change that status’. That is all stuff you have imposed upon the text. If you can find these things in other texts….present other texts and try and link them to this text. But please…don’t tell me THIS text has those things in them, because it does not.

 

[Naomi25]

Go over what you wrote in your OP. The way you wrote it suggests you were implying 1 Thess.4 by Paul was a parable. You mixed that Scripture and the parable of the tares Scripture in such a way as to confuse them.

I’m sorry if you see it that way, but I assure you, it was not my intent.
And, looking back at what I wrote…I quoted the parable, which I clearly, several times, label as a parable. Then I quote 1 Thess 4. Then I say this:

“This passage is, without a doubt, talking about the ‘Rapture’. The event where Christians are ‘caught up’…gathered to be with Christ. Regardless of how or when you understand this event, it’s clearly there. But…huh. The dead in Christ go first. And then we who are alive. WHO ARE LEFT. After reading the parable of the weeds, I’m suddenly wondering if Paul is being at all literal here. If the parable can be taken at all seriously, then we might be able to say that at that future time, living Christians will witness the ‘harvesting’, or ‘reaping’ of sinners from the face of the earth. And once that has happened, then they will be gathered to meet the Lord.”

“This passage”…not ‘this parable’. I then go on a bit further down to point BACK to the parable…”after reading the parable of the weeds”….but…that is clearly labeled as the parable of the weeds…NOT the 1 Thess 4 passage. After pointing back to the ‘parable of the weeds’, which is quoted up top of the post, I say “I’m wondering if Paul is being at all literal here”…in regards to the passage just above THIS paragraph…ie: 1 Thess 4.

Again…I’m sorry if that is not clear enough for you, but I stand by it…I was NOT mixing the two up.

.
I covered the Mark 13:27 passage which points to the 'alive' saints on earth being gathered...

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

1. Matthew 24:31 -- about the 'asleep' saints Jesus brings with Him from heaven.
2. Mark 13:27 -- about the 'alive' saints still alive on earth gathered to Jesus and the asleep saints.

That... is exactly what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering of the Church.

Matt 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Well, no…hang on a minute, you’ve still rather missed my point:

Matthew 24:31
[31] And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27
[27] And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Matthew might ONLY list ‘heaven’, but Mark has both…he doesn’t just specify ‘earth’. So…to say one passage is only saying ‘gathering the dead’ while the other is ‘gathering the alive’ is not accurate. Indeed…we ought to ask as well what “the four winds” means as well. Many argue it is not a reference to the heavenly realm, but covers the entirety of earth. Put simply, both passages are simply saying: “no matter where you are, alive or dead, if you belong to Christ, this is the time you will be gathered to him”.

.
If you cannot see how those two underlined phrases are different, then maybe you need to get your eyes checked.

The difference between those two gathering examples aligns perfectly with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Christ's gathering of the Church. When He comes, He brings the 'asleep' saints with Him like Paul said, and Matthew 24:31 covers that event with the saints gathered FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER. And the still alive saints on earth are gathered FROM THE UTTERMOST PART OF THE EARTH per the Mark 13:27 example. And this was revealed by Lord Jesus while Apostle Paul was still working for the Pharisees!

Nothing wrong with my eyes, thanks. And what I see is that the two passages are pretty much identical, apart from the use of a few words…in this specific case, 4. But, as I said above, with Mark listing both heaven and earth, it becomes problematic to say that Mark is saying its only a gathering on the earth. Again, I would say that Paul is drawing from the Olivet Discourse as a whole (or, just as likely personal revelation from Christ), which includes both the Matthew and Mark account.
I’m….not sure we actually disagree about the event itself. I just think that the Olivet Discourse needs to be considered in a composite way. We have the account given by several different disciples…some drop a few details, some add some…but that’s as we would expect it as reported by different people. But we know it’s the same discourse, so we consider it all together, especially in light of other passages, like Paul’s 1 Thess 4.
Does that help clarify my position a little better on it?

 

[Naomi25]

Which post of mine were you quoting in the above, because I can't seem to find it?

#131

 

[Naomi25]

Isreal of that age are the sun the moon and the stars.


Genesis 37:9 KJV
[9] And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Maybe. That’s one possibility. Others are: it’s symbolic of earthly powers falling (governmental, national). Or…it might be literal in some sense. I don’t know that I’ve strictly got an opinion on it at the moment.

 

[Timtofly]

I’m sorry if you see it that way, but I assure you, it was not my intent.
And, looking back at what I wrote…I quoted the parable, which I clearly, several times, label as a parable. Then I quote 1 Thess 4. Then I say this:

“This passage is, without a doubt, talking about the ‘Rapture’. The event where Christians are ‘caught up’…gathered to be with Christ. Regardless of how or when you understand this event, it’s clearly there. But…huh. The dead in Christ go first. And then we who are alive. WHO ARE LEFT. After reading the parable of the weeds, I’m suddenly wondering if Paul is being at all literal here. If the parable can be taken at all seriously, then we might be able to say that at that future time, living Christians will witness the ‘harvesting’, or ‘reaping’ of sinners from the face of the earth. And once that has happened, then they will be gathered to meet the Lord.”

“This passage”…not ‘this parable’. I then go on a bit further down to point BACK to the parable…”after reading the parable of the weeds”….but…that is clearly labeled as the parable of the weeds…NOT the 1 Thess 4 passage. After pointing back to the ‘parable of the weeds’, which is quoted up top of the post, I say “I’m wondering if Paul is being at all literal here”…in regards to the passage just above THIS paragraph…ie: 1 Thess 4.

Again…I’m sorry if that is not clear enough for you, but I stand by it…I was NOT mixing the two up.


Well, no…hang on a minute, you’ve still rather missed my point:

Matthew 24:31
[31] And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27
[27] And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Matthew might ONLY list ‘heaven’, but Mark has both…he doesn’t just specify ‘earth’. So…to say one passage is only saying ‘gathering the dead’ while the other is ‘gathering the alive’ is not accurate. Indeed…we ought to ask as well what “the four winds” means as well. Many argue it is not a reference to the heavenly realm, but covers the entirety of earth. Put simply, both passages are simply saying: “no matter where you are, alive or dead, if you belong to Christ, this is the time you will be gathered to him”.


Nothing wrong with my eyes, thanks. And what I see is that the two passages are pretty much identical, apart from the use of a few words…in this specific case, 4. But, as I said above, with Mark listing both heaven and earth, it becomes problematic to say that Mark is saying its only a gathering on the earth. Again, I would say that Paul is drawing from the Olivet Discourse as a whole (or, just as likely personal revelation from Christ), which includes both the Matthew and Mark account.
I’m….not sure we actually disagree about the event itself. I just think that the Olivet Discourse needs to be considered in a composite way. We have the account given by several different disciples…some drop a few details, some add some…but that’s as we would expect it as reported by different people. But we know it’s the same discourse, so we consider it all together, especially in light of other passages, like Paul’s 1 Thess 4.
Does that help clarify my position a little better on it?

Matthew 13 is not part of the OD. Matthew 13 has two different sowing parables. One applies to the here and now of the last 1991 years since the Cross. The other one after the Second Coming at the end of this current age. One applies to this age. The other applies after this age after Jesus Christ already came and the angels are already here.

Neither of these parables should be confused with the OD itself. Combining all parables into one singular event should not happen. Contradiction comes into play trying to reconcile them all into just a singular event.

 

[Oseas]

A little time before Christ's return, ... Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time -Matthew 24:v.14 to 25- : and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

11 - And from the time that the...the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. - 1.290 days - 2nd half of the week 70th Dan.9:v.27

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. -magnificent, glorious, portentous, wonderful, marvelous, admirable DAY 1.335-

P.S.
Isaiah 26:v.19-21
19 ... the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Both Daniel 12:1-3 and John 5:28-29 refer to the GWT Judgment after the Millennium.
That truth is obvious from their prophecy of all the dead being raised and the Book of Life being opened.
Revelation 20:11-15

Thinking they happen when Jesus Returns, is error and a wrong belief.

Keraz, what is that? You MUST review your interpretation to preach Truth instead to preach misleading. Have you never read 1 Thess. 4:v.15-17? Paul Apostle refers to the resurrection preached propheticaly by Daniel 12:v.1-3 that will occur before Christ's coming exactly with the voice of the archangel -archangel MICHAEL, understand?- with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise FIRST. This wonderful event will occur now with the sound of the trumpet sounded by Michael. HOW COULD YOU SAY WILL BE IT IN THE END OF THE MILLENNIUM? YOU ARE WRONG. It will occur now in the beginning of the millennium, not in the END.

1 Thes.4:v.11 to 17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not PREVENT them which are asleep. (and go to resurrect now)

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel - MICHAEL-, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (FIRST SOUNDS THE TRUMPET, the message/voice of Michael archangel, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then the Lord himself shall descend from heaven)

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...to meet the Lord...and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (Only the words of Truth will be confirmed, and only they may comfort one another).

Keraz, If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? Be careful.

When The Trumpet Of The Lord Shall Sound - YouTube

There will be a trumpet call when Jesus Returns,...

Yes, the believers, true or not, know of this, even the demons.

...but it isn't the final one, the Last Trump;...

It seems the Bible reveals to have seven of them. Which one are you trying to talk about? Why didn't you specifically mention this one? Wouldn't it be because you're lying?

...to call all the dead to stand before God in Judgment. AFTER the Millennium.

Will there be sound of Trump after the millennium? Which Trump? Is it to call the dead for Judgment? Who's gonna blow that trumpet of yours you're talking about? Very strange. What is your Bible version?

Unfortunately you are using the style of the old serpent in your messages, making a mixture of false interpretations that prevent, or hinder, or block, the possibility of be reached the true interpretation of Scriptures, even the Truth itself. I know how the cunning of a sneaking spirit is.-Matthew 16:v.21-23

 

[Naomi25]

How many people do you know pass away this way:

"But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord. And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also."

At the 5th Trumpet we see:

"And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."

You may have a point. The angels could be tossing bodies into the pit, not just removing the souls. But the wheat, those souls have to shed this corruptible body, for an incorruptible body. The soul will have to be harvested. The "barn" is just a holding area, until after Armageddon. Since angels are not bound by the physical, I think an angel is just used to transfer the soul through time itself until after Armageddon. No waiting at all.

Mmm. Again, this digs into certain timing issues, which muddies the waters. But, I suppose it was a tad naive of me to think we could leave timing out of it, since it is sort of essential to the end. The problem is, of course, that the debate on timing and order of that timing, has raged for centuries, and I’m not certain we’ll have a clear understanding this side of heaven.

We could think of the ‘barn’ as heaven (the holding place), which would place ‘the harvest’ at either the Pre-trib Rapture, or Post-trib, leaving a gap for the Millennium to occur. OR we could think of it as the Kingdom of God, which occurs as soon as ‘the harvest’ happens, in which case the ‘fire’ which burns the weeds is the judgment throne of God, and the ‘wheat’ are given their new resurrection bodies as they are ushered into said ‘barn’. Which would mean the ‘end of the age’ happens AFTER the Millennium (which puts it now, per Amillennialism).
In other words…you can make it work either way, really…it all depends on how you read it. Personally, I tend to think the second reading is the more natural one, but I’m open to the others. And, of course, we’d need to factor in other passages that speak on timing.

 

[Naomi25]

Matthew 13 is not part of the OD. Matthew 13 has two different sowing parables. One applies to the here and now of the last 1991 years since the Cross. The other one after the Second Coming at the end of this current age. One applies to this age. The other applies after this age after Jesus Christ already came and the angels are already here.

Neither of these parables should be confused with the OD itself. Combining all parables into one singular event should not happen. Contradiction comes into play trying to reconcile them all into just a singular event.

I didn’t SAY Matt 13 was part of the OD!
If you go back in the conversation a ways, you will see the references to Matt 13 and the bit where we speak about the OD is a different conversation. They have nothing to do with one another.

 

[Oseas]

A little time before Christ's return, ... Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time -Matthew 24:v.14 to 25- : and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

11 - And from the time that the...the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. - 1.290 days - 2nd half of the week 70th Dan.9:v.27

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. -magnificent, glorious, portentous, wonderful, marvelous, admirable DAY 1.335-

P.S.
Isaiah 26:v.19-21
19 ... the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

 

[Keraz]

It seems the Bible reveals to have seven of them. Which one are you trying to talk about? Why didn't you specifically mention this one? Wouldn't it be because you're lying?

There are many times that the Trumpet sounds in the Bible.
The Trumpet sound for Jesus Return and the one to call all the dead at the GWT Judgment are 2 different calls. The Seven Trumpet calls of the Great Tribulation are also separate calls, as Revelation describes.

I have reported you for your rude accusation.
Is anyone who contradicts your beliefs; a liar?

 

[Truth7t7]

I’m sorry if you see it that way, but I assure you, it was not my intent.
And, looking back at what I wrote…I quoted the parable, which I clearly, several times, label as a parable. Then I quote 1 Thess 4. Then I say this:

“This passage is, without a doubt, talking about the ‘Rapture’. The event where Christians are ‘caught up’…gathered to be with Christ. Regardless of how or when you understand this event, it’s clearly there. But…huh. The dead in Christ go first. And then we who are alive. WHO ARE LEFT. After reading the parable of the weeds, I’m suddenly wondering if Paul is being at all literal here. If the parable can be taken at all seriously, then we might be able to say that at that future time, living Christians will witness the ‘harvesting’, or ‘reaping’ of sinners from the face of the earth. And once that has happened, then they will be gathered to meet the Lord.”

“This passage”…not ‘this parable’. I then go on a bit further down to point BACK to the parable…”after reading the parable of the weeds”….but…that is clearly labeled as the parable of the weeds…NOT the 1 Thess 4 passage. After pointing back to the ‘parable of the weeds’, which is quoted up top of the post, I say “I’m wondering if Paul is being at all literal here”…in regards to the passage just above THIS paragraph…ie: 1 Thess 4.

Again…I’m sorry if that is not clear enough for you, but I stand by it…I was NOT mixing the two up.


Well, no…hang on a minute, you’ve still rather missed my point:

Matthew 24:31
[31] And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27
[27] And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.

Matthew might ONLY list ‘heaven’, but Mark has both…he doesn’t just specify ‘earth’. So…to say one passage is only saying ‘gathering the dead’ while the other is ‘gathering the alive’ is not accurate. Indeed…we ought to ask as well what “the four winds” means as well. Many argue it is not a reference to the heavenly realm, but covers the entirety of earth. Put simply, both passages are simply saying: “no matter where you are, alive or dead, if you belong to Christ, this is the time you will be gathered to him”.


Nothing wrong with my eyes, thanks. And what I see is that the two passages are pretty much identical, apart from the use of a few words…in this specific case, 4. But, as I said above, with Mark listing both heaven and earth, it becomes problematic to say that Mark is saying its only a gathering on the earth. Again, I would say that Paul is drawing from the Olivet Discourse as a whole (or, just as likely personal revelation from Christ), which includes both the Matthew and Mark account.
I’m….not sure we actually disagree about the event itself. I just think that the Olivet Discourse needs to be considered in a composite way. We have the account given by several different disciples…some drop a few details, some add some…but that’s as we would expect it as reported by different people. But we know it’s the same discourse, so we consider it all together, especially in light of other passages, like Paul’s 1 Thess 4.
Does that help clarify my position a little better on it?

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% Yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Brakelite]

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% Yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Agree with the above, except I'm not sure where you would place Christians prior to this event. In heaven... In some other place... Or actually still in the graves?

 

[Naomi25]

The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% Yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% Yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% Yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Mostly, I tend to agree with you in regards to the timing on this issue.
However, on this thread, I’m attempting to keep an open mind so as to converse more openly with others holding different opinions.
The thing is, with all these verses, is that, in a way, they can all be read by bias. Not every passage that speaks of Christ’s return or the judgment etc, talks of every element of it. So, in that way, we can, depending on our ‘system’, read into it, or out of it, what we hope is or isn’t there.
Now, granted, both you and I, on this particular issue, would argue the strongest case is for the one you’ve presented above…but it still leaves wiggle room…I’d say biblically valid wiggle room, for a conversation about the other systems. And I think that unless we’re at least open to discuss those other ideas, we’ve not allowed our own to be truly tested. I think there is wisdom, not ‘deception’ in considering all options against the weight of scripture, rather than only gazing in one direction. It may be that there is only one truth, but the idea that we hold it to the exclusion of all else is both arrogant and shuts out the possibility that God would have us grow.
Anyway, that’s where I am coming from at present.

 

[Oseas]

There are many times that the Trumpet sounds in the Bible.

We entered the time of Apocalypse recently, the trumpets will sound from now on. What matters is to identify their sounds, so read Revelation chapters 8 to 11.

The Trumpet sound for Jesus Return and the on to call all the dead at the GWT Judgment are 2 different calls.

Which of the Trumpet will sound for JESUS return? And who will sound the Trumpet for JESUS return? Scriptures reveals his name. Who is him or what is his name? MY BROTHERS IN CHRIST AND READERS OF THIS TOPIC NEED TO KNOW OF THESE WONDERFUL DETAILS.

On the other hand, you referred to the GWT Judgment, so in what version of Bible (chapter and verse) is written that will there be sound of Trumpet to call deads at GWT Judgment after the millennium? What does biblical Trumpet you refer? Which of the Trumpet will sound to call deads?

The Seven Trumpet calls of the Great Tribulation are also separate calls, as Revelation describes.

The seven trumpets speak of plagues, punishments, destruction, death, killings, among others, not of GT. It would be interesting and more convenient you read the Bible, and not literatures and videos of demons and coming here twisting and falsifying the Word of God.

I have reported you for your rude accusation.
Is anyone who contradicts your beliefs; a liar?

No, not he who contradicts my beliefs, I am nothing, but who contradicts and falsify the Word of GOD. As is written in James 4:v.5-6: 5 Do ye think that the Scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us has jealousy? 6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

 

[Oseas]

I agree, and the angels will be walking around actually removing souls from the living. There will be no spiritual blindness. Humans will actually see it happening. This is not fiction or a movie. This is the time of GT.

What I know is that the archangel Michael is already walking around us, and the plagues are falling upon the earth as a whole due his presence among us, even the GT is /will be a consequence of his presence on the Earth. There will be only and only punishments over the earth, the wicked nations will be furious, angry, due the severe chastisements. On the other hand, there will be a resurrection, the earth shall cast out the dead.

 

[Truth7t7]

Agree with the above, except I'm not sure where you would place Christians prior to this event. In heaven... In some other place... Or actually still in the graves?

The believers bodies are in the grave, their souls are with the Lord waiting upon this last day resurrection, when the eternal glorified body is received

To be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord 2 Corinthians 5:8

 

[Truth7t7]

Mostly, I tend to agree with you in regards to the timing on this issue.
However, on this thread, I’m attempting to keep an open mind so as to converse more openly with others holding different opinions.
The thing is, with all these verses, is that, in a way, they can all be read by bias. Not every passage that speaks of Christ’s return or the judgment etc, talks of every element of it. So, in that way, we can, depending on our ‘system’, read into it, or out of it, what we hope is or isn’t there.
Now, granted, both you and I, on this particular issue, would argue the strongest case is for the one you’ve presented above…but it still leaves wiggle room…I’d say biblically valid wiggle room, for a conversation about the other systems. And I think that unless we’re at least open to discuss those other ideas, we’ve not allowed our own to be truly tested. I think there is wisdom, not ‘deception’ in considering all options against the weight of scripture, rather than only gazing in one direction. It may be that there is only one truth, but the idea that we hold it to the exclusion of all else is both arrogant and shuts out the possibility that God would have us grow.
Anyway, that’s where I am coming from at present.

I fully agree we need to converse in forums, however there is one future resurrection of all on the last day, and there isn't wiggle room to change this biblical truth, it's that simple

 

[Keraz]

Agree with the above, except I'm not sure where you would place Christians prior to this event. In heaven... In some other place... Or actually still in the graves?

Mainly; the faithful Christians will be in the place of safety. Revelation 12:14

there is one future resurrection of all on the last day, and there isn't wiggle room to change this biblical truth, it's that simple

The Last Day is after the Millennium, as Revelation 20 describes.
Denial of the sequence of the Return and then the Millennium, as prophesied in Revelation 20 and elsewhere, is a shuffling of Revelation at the best and is a violation of scripture.

The AMill belief is wrong and is easily seen to be wrong, by reading the Prophesies and by the world at present.