The Ones Who Are Left…

[Truth7t7]

Paul does NOT say all the dead in Christ, will be raised when Jesus Returns.
Also Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 19:14 plainly it is only the armies of heaven, who accompany Him.

It is necessary to be clear on this, or all sorts of fanciful beliefs arise.

John clearly states that "All" are resurrected at the "Voice" of God at the second coming

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Oseas]

A little time before Christ's return, ... Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time -Matthew 24:v.14 to 25- : and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

11 - And from the time that the...the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. - 1.290 days - 2nd half of the week 70th Dan.9:v.27

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. -magnificent, glorious, portentous, wonderful, marvelous, admirable DAY 1.335-

P.S.
Isaiah 26:v.19-21
19 ... the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

 

[Naomi25]

The dead are already with Christ ,how else do they come back with Him ?

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord."

I’m afraid I fail to see your point, sorry.
Not only was my OP NOT about those who were already ‘dead in Christ’…and where they may be, but I’m not sure anything I’ve written would actively contradict anything you’ve said.
So, I’m at a bit of a loss as to the reason of your post.

 

[Naomi25]

Nah, those things are a trap, like I said. What's important is to heed what GOD says, even though He spoke it through His chosen prophets. If that isn't understood first, then trying to delve into the 'culture of caring' politically correct philosophy of men is like a child whining while grown ups are trying to have a conversation.

To clarify…you believe it to be ‘a trap’ and ‘like a whiny child while grown ups are trying to converse’ when a person strives to understand the cultural relevance of the biblical authors?
If this is, indeed, what you are saying, it shows a significant lack of realisation of just how much you do it anyway.
Consider: when scripture refers to Babylon, or later, Rome…we understand, culturally, that the writers are not just referring to different cities. They are speaking about significant anti-God cities and cultures that have aligned themselves against YHWH and his people. And the more we investigate, both biblically and historically, the SORT of culture Babylon and Rome had…what they did to their own people, to people they conquered…to the Israelites, the more we understand the references to them in scripture. It gives those references depth and colour. It gives them certain meanings when we consider our own culture.
To imagine that those 2 are the only time significant cultural events or references are used is ludicrous. Indeed, we see them throughout scripture, God has his authors use them all the time, and it’s not a stretch to understand why.
So…if you ARE dismissing the notion, I caution you against it. Any diligent bible reader ought to attempt to understand first what and who the text is being written for, and then apply to themselves.

 

[Oseas]

When The Trumpet Of The Lord Shall Sound - YouTube

 

[n2thelight]

We are told exactly who it is that Jesus will bring when He Returns:
Revelation 20:4....I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus, they came to life again and reigned with Christ for the next thousand years.
Revelation 20:5 Though the rest of the dead do not come to life again until the thousand years have ended.

Paul does NOT say all the dead in Christ, will be raised when Jesus Returns.
Also Matthew 16:27 and Revelation 19:14 plainly it is only the armies of heaven, who accompany Him.

It is necessary to be clear on this, or all sorts of fanciful beliefs arise.

Okay ,first ,don't know what version your reading as per Rev 20:4 and 5

Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

If you are saved and make a stand against the Antichrist and his deceptions, you will reign with Christ 1,000 years.

Those who did take the "mark of the beast", their souls will not, I repeat, will not have an eternal spiritual body until they are tested after the millennium. I Corinthians 15:50-52 describes the mystery of the two bodies. The physical and spiritual bodies are two separate entities. There are also two spiritual bodies, one eternal, the other perishable (mortal). Those who take the mark of the beast will not have their eternal bodies at the seventh trump. Instead they will have mortal spiritual bodies (liable-to-die), and have to be taught again to learn the difference between 'the holy from the profane' for 1,000 years and then be tested at the end of it to earn that eternal body by choosing Jesus Christ.

What are we talking about when it says "the rest of the dead"? The difference in taking part in the first resurrection or not taking part -- which hinges on whether or not they were deceived by the Antichrist. Remember, John has been taken in the Spirit to the last day before Christ's return. Revelation 20 is talking about that specific day when the last trump sounds, and Jesus Christ our Lord is returning with His saints to the earth. This verse is not addressing those who died 50, 100, or at any time from any century prior to the sounding of the seventh trump. It is addressing the generation (our generation) who will live in the time of the seven seals, and those who will see some take Satan's mark (the mark of the beast) and give service to him.

I Corinthians 15:52 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

The kingdom of God is wherever Jesus Christ is, and flesh and blood cannot exist in that kingdom. When Christ returns for the Millennium age here on earth, flesh and blood bodies will not exist.

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

This is a mystery that Paul is going to reveal to us that had been hidden until Paul's writing. This mystery concerns what happens at a particular point in time, for at that instant, there will be no more death. "Sleep" as used here, is # 2838 in the Strong's Greek Dictionary; "Koimesis, koy'-may-sis; from 2837, to put to sleep." We read in # 2837; "Koimao, Koy-mah'-o; to put to sleep, to decease, to be dead."

So a time is coming when all the people on the face of the earth will never see death in their flesh bodies again. This is the mystery that Paul is going to tell us; when this event shall take place.

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

On the first day of the Millennium age, the "Kingdom of Heaven" will be with us on earth. You cannot enter that kingdom age in a flesh body. Therefore, it is written in verse 52 that all will be changed, in the wink of an eye, and at the last trump (seventh trump). When that seventh trump sounds, everyone on earth will be changed to an incorruptible body.

That doesn't have anything to do with your soul, or its condition. Your physical body and your spiritual body (soul) have nothing to do with the condition of one another. Your soul is your inner man that will exist in your current flesh body, and either at death or at the seventh trump, will be changed and enter into a new body (spirit body) which will not be subject to the decay this flesh body is subject to.

So, to understand what will occur in the Millennium age, you must understand that instantly following the seventh trump, all flesh bodies simply do not have life. Not one person will exist in the flesh. Every person will have the same capabilities and all will have the understanding to be taught without Satan's influence.

However, only those saints of God who have died in the flesh, or who lived and stood against Satan will take part in the first resurrection. By that I mean, will have an active part with Jesus Christ in His kingdom and reign, as he rules and teaches the earth for one thousand years, and live in their immortal soul bodies. (There will be those who stumble for a short time and bow to satan, but they will repent before the seventh trumpet. Daniel 11:34 and still be part of the first resurrection - because they repented prior to the end of this flesh age).

There will be nobody to be raised when Christ returns as those who have died in Him returns with Him .

Those alive at that time ALL will be changed to there spiritual bodies ,the same bodies that Christ brings are already in .

 

[n2thelight]

I’m afraid I fail to see your point, sorry.
Not only was my OP NOT about those who were already ‘dead in Christ’…and where they may be, but I’m not sure anything I’ve written would actively contradict anything you’ve said.
So, I’m at a bit of a loss as to the reason of your post.

The thing I got from your OP was those left behind . My point was focused on that , when I hear ,left behind I automatically assume rapture . My I ask what you mean by left behind ,or refer me to the post number

 

[Naomi25]

The thing I got from your OP was those left behind . My point was focused on that , when I hear ,left behind I automatically assume rapture . My I ask what you mean by left behind ,or refer me to the post number

Well….the jury is out on whether or not its a reference to the Rapture or the second coming, I suppose. The post would, correctly, be the OP, #1…it has both passages in it.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-16
[15] For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. [16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

You seemed (to me), to focus in on verse 16, however, on ‘the dead will rise first’…and point out where the dead are.
However, that was not my point. My point was, in light of Matt 13, if it is to be taken literally, might we suppose that at the event of Christ’s return, when the ‘harvest’ begins…should we look to the wicked ‘disappearing’ first, and then “those who are left”…being only Christians…will have the dead in Christ precede THEM.
Because, 1 Thess 4 only really speaks to those IN Christ, both dead and alive. It says nothing about the wicked. If we factor Matt 13 in, we might say they are already gone…hence the phrase “who are left”.

Again, as I stressed in the OP…this is just an idle and interesting thought and I wondered what other’s take on it would be. Like I said…I don’t disagree with you in regards to the dead…

 

[n2thelight]

You seemed (to me), to focus in on verse 16, however, on ‘the dead will rise first’…and point out where the dead are.
However, that was not my point. My point was, in light of Matt 13, if it is to be taken literally, might we suppose that at the event of Christ’s return, when the ‘harvest’ begins…should we look to the wicked ‘disappearing’ first, and then “those who are left”…being only Christians…will have the dead in Christ precede THEM.
Because, 1 Thess 4 only really speaks to those IN Christ, both dead and alive. It says nothing about the wicked. If we factor Matt 13 in, we might say they are already gone…hence the phrase “who are left”.

Again, as I stressed in the OP…this is just an idle and interesting thought and I wondered what other’s take on it would be. Like I said…I don’t disagree with you in regards to the dead…

Thanks for clarifying ,my response was to show that ,all shall be changed at the return of Christ per the below. Do you mean those not in Christ who have dead are gone ,if so what about those not in Him at His return?

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

Paul is now going to show us a mystery that deals with our generation, for a mystery is something that cannot be understood. However, when the details and clues of the mystery are know, then it is no longer a mystery. This mystery deals with a time when something is going to happen all over the earth to all flesh bodies, when these flesh bodies are not die anymore. Why will this be? Because all people living in their flesh bodies will be changed instantly from their flesh bodies, into their new incorruptible bodies.

Although we all shall be changed ,all at this time do not have an immortal soul, only those in Christ .

 

[Davy]

To clarify…you believe it to be ‘a trap’ and ‘like a whiny child while grown ups are trying to converse’ when a person strives to understand the cultural relevance of the biblical authors?

As I have said before, when someone just goes on about what God's prophets felt emotionally, their tests and trials WITHOUT actually trying to understand what The LORD Himself said through them, then THAT kind of preaching is nothing but a trap leading nowhere. It's like re-writing God's Word into some kind of novel! It is the idea of taking away from God's Word.

One of the jobs of the Levitical priests in old covenant times was to read The Word of God to the people, and then give the meaning so the people could understand. If a preacher spends more time on your 'culture of caring' idea instead of giving the congregation understanding of what GOD spoke through His prophets, then THAT kind of working of men takes away... from The Word of God, and is a TRAP!

Now if you can't understand English very well, I then realize you may have a problem understanding what I said above. Other than that, I made myself very clear above. So you have no excuse to wander about with trying to pin some idiotic fault on me.

 

[Davy]

Okay, here’s a thought. And I preface it with the warning that it IS just a thought, I’m not trying to claim it’s true or inspired by God, and I’m not hoping to stir a great deal of angst among folks who think I’m nuts…I could be, I’m just noodling through something…but I thought it was an interesting thought, and one that sort of hit me as I was reading my bible, so…

Matt 13 gives us the parable of the weeds, and the explanation of it:


Matthew 13:24-30
The Parable of the Weeds
[24] He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, [25] but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. [26] So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. [27] And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ [28] He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ [29] But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Matthew 13:37-43
[37] He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. [38] The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, [39] and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. [40] Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. [41] The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, [42] and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

While I acknowledge that this will be argued against by Dispensationalists, who would claim a two stage ‘return’ of Christ…which would put, in their mind, this ‘end of the age’ event at his last coming, I argue it doesn’t actually give us permission to insert or assume that. And yes, we could go elsewhere and continue the argument, but that is not my current goal. Here, in the text, we are told rather clearly that BOTH people groups are being allowed to ‘grow’ until the end of the age. At which point, the angels are sent out to gather…to reap the law-breakers and sinners, and throw them into the furnace. It’s then that the ‘righteous’ will inherit the Kingdom of their Father.
My interest, in specific, was caught when I was reading this passage:


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
[16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

This passage is, without a doubt, talking about the ‘Rapture’. The event where Christians are ‘caught up’…gathered to be with Christ. Regardless of how or when you understand this event, it’s clearly there. But…huh. The dead in Christ go first. And then we who are alive. WHO ARE LEFT. After reading the parable of the weeds, I’m suddenly wondering if Paul is being at all literal here. If the parable can be taken at all seriously, then we might be able to say that at that future time, living Christians will witness the ‘harvesting’, or ‘reaping’ of sinners from the face of the earth. And once that has happened, then they will be gathered to meet the Lord.
It could, even understanding what is happening, be quite a daunting prospect.
Of course, it all could happen within seconds of one another, who truly knows.
But, like I said, it was interesting to me.

The parable of the tares of the field was given by Lord Jesus Himself, not by Apostle Paul.

What Apostle Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4 is NOT a parable.

Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 was REPEATING what Lord Jesus said in His Olivet discourse about the gathering of the Church (Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27).

In Matthew 24 it's about the gathering of the 'asleep' saints Paul talking about.

In the Mark 13 version it's about the saints still alive on earth at Christ's coming being gathered to Him.

So there's the Truth about what the false Pre-trib Rapture preachers preach, they ignore Christ's Olivet discourse teaching about His gathering the Church, while they wrongly think Apostle Paul is the only one who revealed about the gathering of the Church.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Being filled with the spirit and being led by the spirit are not the same thing

I’ve read through all three post and wanted to respond to a few quotes. But first, most of what you said I don’t disagree with. I’m not arguing that it wasn’t to the Jew first as in
Romans 2:9-11 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; [10] But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: [11] For there is no respect of persons with God.

But even in the above I can learn from what is there that tribulation and anguish to every soul that follows after the flesh
But glory, honour and peace to every man that works good …in coming to the Light that his deeds may be made manifest they are wrought in God. Knowing their deeds are evil, they hate the light and won’t come to it(Him)? For the Spirit of God is glory, honour and peace. What I see there is the old man which is dead and crucified (tribulation and anguish) and the New man which is glory, honour, and peace (rest) in Christ. which is every in, no one exempt in ‘if one died for all, then were all dead’ For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: [15] And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. [16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. [17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. [18] And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; [19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.” 2 Corinthians 5:14-19

As when Jesus Christ stood up in the last day
John 7:37-39 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. [38] He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. [39] (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Spirit was not yet given ; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

what I hear is “if any thirst, let him (forbid them not to) come to me, and drink” …to every and all: to the Jew first? Then also to the gentiles? For there is no respect of persons with God.

see, I’m not arguing it wasn’t to the Jew first but I also read where God said in thy seed all the nations will be blessed. What I question and honestly buck against (maybe wrong in doing so) is that it is a sin to put yourself anywhere in the gospels as if God is talking to you, because you are not an outward Jew. Or that it is vain to put yourself in any of the conversation which was obviously to the Jews. And how it isn’t anything but confusion. But I also read where God says He will make two One; and He will give them One voice, One “pure language”, One Mind (the Mind of Christ), One heart, One body as Jesus Christ prayed let them be One as we are One ..so yes I do question why rightly dividing the word becomes to undo “where there is neither Greek nor Jew, neither male nor female” where neither circumcision or uncircumcised avails but a New Creature in One mind, one heart, one voice, One body the middle wall removed whereby He made two One in Christ. I don’t understand why it is a sin or vain to think God possibly could be meaning me also; who is no outward Jew in “If any thirst, let him come to me, and drink”

I’m trying to clarify I read the same verses as you where Jesus Christ spoke of not giving the children’s bread to dogs, but how else “in thy seed all nations of the earth will be blessed” and the woman ate of the crumbs that fell from “the Master”s table. . You mentioned: being lead by the Spirit is different than being filled by the Spirit. When Jesus Christ stood and said if any thirst, let him come, and drink? To me the topic is let Him who thirst, come and drink …and be filled. Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

For they shall be filled. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness…for they shall be Filled with the Spirit of God.
Again, from the gospels (could be wrong) but is this not speaking of being filled with the Spirit of God.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Being filled with the spirit and being led by the spirit are not the same thing.

Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church.

the above is an odd verse Colossians 1:24 “filling up” that which is lacking, who now rejoice in my suffering for you, and fill up that which is behind (2 Corinthians 11:5-7), (2 Corinthians 12:9-15) of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for His body’s sake, which is the church.

if It is only speaking of those outward Jews in this I do “for His body’s sake, the church” …then the gentiles are excluded from this I do “for His body’s sake, the church”

if it is only speaking of this I do for “the gentiles” then the Jews are excluded from this I do for “His body’s sake, the church”

filling up with …what is being “filled” if not that which lacks or that which is behind and what is it being filled with if not “if any thirst, let him come, and drink” in “ this I do for His body’s sake, the church? “Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.” Ephesians 1:20-23 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, [21] Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: [22] And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, [23] Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

“Who now rejoice in my suffering for you, and fill up that which lacks of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for His body’s sake, which is the church” Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these (that which lacks, or that which is behind)my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Matthew 25:40-42 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. [41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: [42] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
“This I do, filling up that which lacks for His body’s sake, which is the church” 1 Corinthians 12:24-26 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: [25] That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. [26] And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The 12 wanted to know whether it is better to be a servant or a ruler. Jesus told them they will be leaders in verses Luke 22:29-30.

get what you are saying but I’m all kinds of messed up on what is a leader? You said He taught them to be leaders, one comes to mind which is Peter. When Christ told peter when he was converted, to strengthen your brothers. Feed My Lambs. That is my confusion; the world gives a definition to “leaders” or “to lead” by force if necessary, but He seemed to be teaching and instructing them in a different way of leadership when He removed his garments and girded Himself with a towel and washed their feet.

for me there is a major conflict in what is it to lead or leadership? The conflict being that we do not want a forceful God that imposes His Will (even though His Will is good) but allows us to make our own free choice. But then over others, we want a forceful God to break them and impose a rulership if by force if necessary. The conflict (again where I struggle) that God is no tyrant (even though His Will is good) but has given every man freewill, yet at the same time to present the example of Gods Leading (dominance) as forceful and unforgiving toward submission to authority. … yes I’m so confused.

all I’m saying is In He told them they would be leaders …does “leaders” necessarily contradict “as not being Lords over your faith but as helpers”? Two passages stand out to me about leadership. One where the Word says God does it for our profit, that we might be partakers of His likeness. Is it wrong to find comfort in Jeremiah even though it was to “in causing you to return to this place” ?Jeremiah 29:11-13 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. [12] Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. [13] And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

“Intentions of the heart” I’ve been thinking a lot about that. To me the above says God’s intentions of the heart are ‘thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.’… ‘But he for our profit’ Hebrews 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7 where God seems to me to give a better definition of “leader” as in led by the Spirit, being filled with His righteousness, seeking first His reign , His headship, His Rule over all things …in His likeness does “to lead” impose or allow freewill? I don’t know. But ‘Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, [5] Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; [6] Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; [7] Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.’

All which reminds me of when Christ asked Peter “who do you say I Am?”

 

[Brakelite]

Hey @Naomi25 , lovely to see you again... Been too long. Hope all is well.
I have posted previously similar thoughts to your own, and I didn't read past the first page assuming it would go in the same direction as others on this topic... Basically because very few were actually 'listening' to you as you wrote.
I'd like to go back to your OP, back to the original parable. Jesus was using nature, again, as the basis for His lesson. He's talking about farming... Agriculture. Or horticulture, whatever way you want to look at it. He's talking about plants, some good, some bad. The servants wanted to root up the bad ones. The master said no. Why? Because the bad ones looked like good ones. There were too many similarities to do it economically because it wasn't a task you could do in a hurry. It took time to discern between leaves of one and the other, and by the time they discovered the difference, the roots were entwined and couldn't be separated. And as you no doubt know, it wasn't the plants the farmer was wanting. It was fruit. So he's saying, wait till the fruit is mature, them we can do what we like with bad plants. Root them up, that won't damage the fruit.
Now apply that to the church. We all know there are good and bad people in the church. Outside of the body, there's no good, so there's no problem in discernment there... It's only in the church where care of needed. That's why judgement begins in the house of God. This exercise of harvest relating to the parable is only in relation to the church inasmuch as discernment by the harvesters is concerned. The angels are the harvesters. The judgment has already been made by the time the harvest is come. Anything not bearing fruit (like the fig tree that had only leaves) is cursed, and cut down, bundled up and is reserved for the fire. We are witnesses to this event. Some may say we aren't here on account we don't suffer wrath... Well we won't. The angels aren't going to cut down those bearing fruit. We will bear witness to the justice and righteous judgement of God.
Farmer allows crop to grow to maturity.
Before the harvest judgement is made as to whether fruit is ripe and ready.
Decision is made to harvest.
Useless trees uprooted.
Fruitful trees harvested and taken to the Farmer's barn. Including all those trees from ages past that died bearing fruit.
It's simple agriculture really. We make it to complicated.

 

[Taken]

Truth7t7 said: ↑
There is one time of resurrection for all, this takes place on the (Last Day) at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ

ummm, I don’t think so…

Agree.


5 This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.) 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.[/QUOTE]

** The "REST OF THE DEAD"...is effectively A MASS resurrection of ALL (BELIEVING) BODILY DEAD, REMAINING, not previously Resurrected.

Scripture itself....TEACHES...
* Men who ... endured to the end of their physical life ... BELIEVING IN GOD (but not Jesus being the Christ)....SHALL BE SAVED.
* Men who ... endured to the end of their
Physical life ... BELIEVING IN JESUS and was dead and raised by the power of God but not "converted IN Christ".....SHALL BE SAVED.

THOSE ^^^ are NOT "IN CHRIST"...and "DO NOT" reign WITH Christ Jesus, during His 1,000 yr Reign.

THOSE ^^^ are the Remainder of the DEAD, God Raises UP in glory....AFTER the 1,000 yr reign...called the FIRST Resurrection.

* People should actually crack OPEN the Bible and READ, VERIFY what they HEAR, instead of repeating false teaching.

God Bless S-byGrace,
Taken

 

[Timtofly]

Well….the jury is out on whether or not its a reference to the Rapture or the second coming, I suppose. The post would, correctly, be the OP, #1…it has both passages in it.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-16
[15] For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. [16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

You seemed (to me), to focus in on verse 16, however, on ‘the dead will rise first’…and point out where the dead are.
However, that was not my point. My point was, in light of Matt 13, if it is to be taken literally, might we suppose that at the event of Christ’s return, when the ‘harvest’ begins…should we look to the wicked ‘disappearing’ first, and then “those who are left”…being only Christians…will have the dead in Christ precede THEM.
Because, 1 Thess 4 only really speaks to those IN Christ, both dead and alive. It says nothing about the wicked. If we factor Matt 13 in, we might say they are already gone…hence the phrase “who are left”.

Again, as I stressed in the OP…this is just an idle and interesting thought and I wondered what other’s take on it would be. Like I said…I don’t disagree with you in regards to the dead…

Are angels involved every time a soul leaves this body? Is this an ongoing event?


Is the parable about a specific event at the end of the age/world, or is it just the ongoing phenomenon called death. Each second do the lost die first and then the believers? How specific are we getting to determine if this is an ongoing event or a specific end of the age event?

 

[Keraz]

John clearly states that "All" are resurrected at the "Voice" of God at the second coming

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

A little time before Christ's return, ... Daniel 12

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time -Matthew 24:v.14 to 25- : and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Both Daniel 12:1-3 and John 5:28-29 refer to the GWT Judgment after the Millennium.
That truth is obvious from their prophecy of all the dead being raised and the Book of Life being opened.
Revelation 20:11-15

Thinking they happen when Jesus Returns, is error and a wrong belief.

 

[Naomi25]

Thanks for clarifying ,my response was to show that ,all shall be changed at the return of Christ per the below. Do you mean those not in Christ who have dead are gone ,if so what about those not in Him at His return?

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

Paul is now going to show us a mystery that deals with our generation, for a mystery is something that cannot be understood. However, when the details and clues of the mystery are know, then it is no longer a mystery. This mystery deals with a time when something is going to happen all over the earth to all flesh bodies, when these flesh bodies are not die anymore. Why will this be? Because all people living in their flesh bodies will be changed instantly from their flesh bodies, into their new incorruptible bodies.

Although we all shall be changed ,all at this time do not have an immortal soul, only those in Christ .

No, I was speaking of those not in Christ who are ‘alive’. Matt 13’s parable of the weeds speaks of the ‘field’ (world) having both good wheat (Christians) and bad weeds (unbelievers) growing together up until the harvest (end of the age). At which point Jesus will send out the harvesters (angels) to reap. The parable notes that the weeds are to be gathered first and cast into the fire.

I had just read that parable when I also read 1 Thess 4:15, where it said at Christ’s return for his own, “those who are left”. I had always understood it in the context of “any Christian alive at that point and had not already died in the Lord”…which it could very well mean. But after reading the parable of the weeds, I just wondered if it might be understood as happening AFTER the wicked had been reaped out of the earth and into the fire. Which would very literally mean that those in Christ would be “those who are left” on the earth.

Again, it was not a particular comment on the timing of the Rapture, or where the dead in Christ are. Because, yes, I do believe the bible teaches a Rapture…a catching up of his own to meet him. And yes, I do believe the dead in Christ are with him now, and will precede us in receiving our resurrection bodies.
This was more a thought on the order of ‘leaving’ between the living believers and living unbelievers at Christ’s return, as per the parable of the weeds.

 

[Naomi25]

As I have said before, when someone just goes on about what God's prophets felt emotionally, their tests and trials WITHOUT actually trying to understand what The LORD Himself said through them, then THAT kind of preaching is nothing but a trap leading nowhere. It's like re-writing God's Word into some kind of novel! It is the idea of taking away from God's Word.

One of the jobs of the Levitical priests in old covenant times was to read The Word of God to the people, and then give the meaning so the people could understand. If a preacher spends more time on your 'culture of caring' idea instead of giving the congregation understanding of what GOD spoke through His prophets, then THAT kind of working of men takes away... from The Word of God, and is a TRAP!

Now if you can't understand English very well, I then realize you may have a problem understanding what I said above. Other than that, I made myself very clear above. So you have no excuse to wander about with trying to pin some idiotic fault on me.

Where have I said we need to care about what they were feeling? About a “culture of caring”? Me thinks you are enjoying building a straw man and have addressed little to nothing of what I’ve actually said.
If God has his prophets and apostles include cultural references (which are NOT feelings ) then why would you assume God doesn’t want you to understand it? In fact, wouldn’t we say that refusing to put it into its proper cultural context and placing it instead in the one where you solidly sit is going against God’s word? Case in point…look at the folks who so doggedly have decided that in John’s Revelation, chapter 9, the demonic locusts coming out of the pit are in fact attack helicopters with women flying them. Sure. Even adhering to a ‘literal’ interpretation, that’s bananas.
Cultural importance. To the author, to the audience. How and why God was saying what he was. Is NOT a trap. It’s correct exegesis.