OSAS.... what does this really mean ?

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Gadgetere

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Ezek 18:
[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

I am a "OSAS" believer.
I will "interact" with you concering Ezek 18:24.

Ezek 18:24...APPLIES to individuals BEFORE Salvation was "OFFERED" to individuals, ("WHILE THEY ARE STILL BODILY ALIVE IN THEIR NATURAL FLESH BODY".)

I already covered this WITH YOU.
Men "WITH" God, by "their own power".
God "WITH" a man, WHEN a man is "WITH" God.

Ezek 18:24 is about a righteous man...turning away.
What is a "righteous man"?
A man believing and following Gods Way.
In the OT, what KEPT a "righteous man" Righteous?
The mans effort and will to "continue" believing in God and following Gods way.

BE informed, realistic, understand...
Routinely men DID, and DO....hear, believe, follow....THEN... GET DISTRACTED, HEAR OTHER WORDS that entice them, tempt them, and the man BEGINS to "IGNORE" Gods WORD, and instead, FOLLOW the WORDS OF men, (and evil spirits)
THEY ^^ HAVE willingly TURNED AWAY from "righteousness"!

WHAT HAPPENS is told you IN Ezek 18:24...
1) they turn AWAY from righteousness (GOD)
2) they turn TOWARD unrighteousness.
3) What the man DID while righteous (following God)...is IRRELEVANT, accounted FOR NOTHING.
4) What the man DID..."good works toward men"....irrelevant
5) what the man DID..."good works toward God'...irrelevant
6) what the man DID..."trespasses Against men"...SHALL BE ACCOUNTED toward him.
(Ie NOT forgiven.)
7) what the man DID..."sin Against God"...SHALL BE ACCOUNTED toward him.
(Ie NOT forgiven.)
8) THAT man, SHALL bodily DIE, without forgiveness of his trespasses AGAINST men and without forgiveness of his sin AGAINST God....
9) NO FORGIVENESS? NO Salvation of his soul, NO Quickeneing of his spirit, NO bodily rising up in Glory.
10) He shall be risen UP in Damnation, Judged damnable, Sentenced to Eternal Separation FROM God.

* WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH A Person, centuries later, OFFERED, a WAY and Having Received the Offer...Forgiven and of soul Salvation, spirit Quickeneing, and assured promise of bodily raising in glory?

NOTHING! No Applicability
I just made several posts with precise Scriptures, including comments on Ezk18:24; no one can be righteous apart from Jesus, and a righteous man can turn away and perish. Where is the ambiguity?

You are cordially invited to respond to the previous posts, especially the one immediately before, listing several "don't-fall-from-salvation" verses. I look forward to your thoughts.
 

Gadgetere

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Thanks for sharing your POV.

All genuine Faith comes from God, whether or not the person IS SAVED.
Absolutely not; faith comes from us TO God, not the other way around. Heb11:6 "without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who comes to God must believe God is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

We must come to God by faith; nowhere does it say "God-gives-saving-faith" -- Rom12:3 is "Semitic/Anthropopmorphic", thinking we are passive recipients of God's capricious, favoritism, partial distribution of faith, violates the passages were faith is required OF us. Like Matt22:37 -- we are commanded to love God, if He gives faith to a few then only those few (and AFTER GETTING His monergistic faith) would obey the command. That makes the command empty, insincere, idiotic.

All men everywhere are commanded to repent, Acts17:26-31.

Rom5:17 says "those WHO RECEIVE the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness". Our choice.

We receive His gift, we abide in Him and keep ourselves in His love, we are charged with beginning faith to ending faith; here we have been discussing all of the "abide" verses.

Notice how hard it is to convince OSAS people, even with precise and clear verses...
 

Gadgetere

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Yes, specifically Romans 12:13 is sufficient regarding measures of faith.
Fine, then we'll just mark out Heb11:6, Rom1:17, 1Pet1:9, Jude20-21, on and on...

The whole of mankind is not interested to hear.
Wait -- are you saying we can choose to hear or not? "Take care how you listen", "blessed are your ears because they hear"?

...that doesn't work if "faith is a gift from God"....
And not to overlook, "falling from faith"..ie "falling away".
A man can hear, receive a measure of faith, and "reject it", and hear no more.
No, there is no falling-away, if faith is a gift from God. "For who can resist His will?"
Rm9:19
 

Gadgetere

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Already been over this.
Yes men can Leave being WITH the Lord...
UNTIL the Lords Spirit is IN the man...

Ignorant.

No...continue to do what you do...
Ignore the Truth, and despertately try to Apply Scriptures to men "IN" Christ, that Apply to men NOT "IN" Christ.
Then ask silly questions.
Easy to say, now let's hear what you think those verses mean.

Gadget said:
Let's review the verses:
James5:19-20 -- return from "falling-away-from-the-truth", and sins re-covered
1Tim4:1 -- demons can deceive many away from the faith
Heb4:11 -- do not imitate Israel's disobedience & unbelief and fall and fail to enter God's rest
2Cor11:3 -- just like Eve was deceived by satan, we can be led astray from Jesus

Lk15:11-32 the Prodigal abandoned his father and was "dead", until he returned
Heb3:12-14 -- brethren can be hardened by sin to falling away from God!
2Pet3:17 -- do not be deceived and fall from your own steadfastness
2Jn1:7-9 -- guard against deceivers, if you go too far and leave the teachings you don't have Jesus!
1Jn2:26-28 -- guard against deceivers, abide in Him to not shrink-in-shame at His return
Col2:6-8 -- walk in Jesus, guard your faith; do not be deceived away from Christ

Okay --- WHICH of those is not "osnas"?

Resist those verses? LOL a funny comment.
Nothing I have ever said.
Wonderful! And your thoughts are?

(...don't forget 1Cor10:6-13, and others we've discussed!)
 

Gadgetere

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@Taken Ephesians 2 and John 6 make it clear that saving faith is a work of God in the heart.
Are we passive recipients of God's exclusive favor? How does God "work-faith-in-hearts", and whose hearts?

What is your understanding (and what verses connect)?
 

farouk

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Are we passive recipients of God's exclusive favor? How does God "work-faith-in-hearts", and whose hearts?

What is your understanding (and what verses connect)?
If we read Ephesians 2, we see that the work of God is so powerful; He does not stand helplessly by.
 

Gadgetere

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OSAS
I don't know about whatever definition the first post might have been referring to but, I've always taken the acronym to mean what the bible talked about as God's holy spirit promise in the faithful.
Once Sealed Always Sealed

Nothing can take away what God gives in his name and as his eternal irrevocable promise. Otherwise, it would be more powerful in the takeaway than God in the giving.
P12, what is your answer to post 300? How do these verses NOT solidly warn against "turning away from Jesus and salvation"?

How do they not say what they say?
 

Taken

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OSAS adherents are not recognizing the real danger of sin!
:eek:

LOL. That's just silly.
A person who has laid down his life for Christ is "Freed From Sin" and advocates the same for others to do the same.

Maybe you do not know what "Freed From" means.
Or perhaps you do not know WHY or WHO Keeps a person "Freed From sin".
 

Taken

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I just made several posts with precise Scriptures, including comments on Ezk18:24; no one can be righteous apart from Jesus, and a righteous man can turn away and perish. Where is the ambiguity?

You are cordially invited to respond to the previous posts, especially the one immediately before, listing several "don't-fall-from-salvation" verses. I look forward to your thoughts.

Already covered that.
Would an elementary analogy and text perhaps help you understand?
 

Taken

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Taken said:
Genuine faith comes from God.

Absolutely not; faith comes from us TO God...

:rolleyes:

Eph 2:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and ........(FYI)
that not of yourselves:
IT (grace, saved, faith) IS A Gift OF God


By grace..........gift OF God
Are saved........gift OF God
Through faith...gift OF God

"NOT of YOURSEVES".
 

Taken

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Taken said;
Yes, specifically Romans 12:13 is sufficient regarding measures of faith.

Fine, then we'll just mark out Heb11:6, Rom1:17, 1Pet1:9, Jude20-21, on and on...

LOL...that's silly.
You advocate "marking out Scripture", that gives Knowledge to a person OF HOW TO obtain Gods Gift of FAITH...? Pffff!

Without Gods Gift of Faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE to PLEASE Him.
( Any clue what a person with Gods gift of Faith CAN DO TO PLEASE GOD? )
Heb 11: 6 speaking of a person "who"...BELIEVES. <--- THAT is the individuals OPTION!

Heb 11:
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Wait -- are you saying we can choose to hear or not?

Of course you can CHOOSE to HEAR the Word of God......OR NOT.
You can CHOOSE to BELIEVE the Word of God...OR NOT.

A person WHO CHOOSES TO HEAR...
A person WHO CHOOSES TO BELIEVE...
God Rewards... with Blessings and Gifts!

Heb 11:6 ... he (God) is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Comprehend?
 

Taken

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Easy to say, now let's hear what you think those verses mean.

Wonderful! And your thoughts are?

(...don't forget 1Cor10:6-13, and others we've discussed!)

YAWN...
For crying out loud...Been over this;
Open your Ears...

LEARN the difference BETWEEN...the words
"Temporary and Permanent".
"With and In".

LEARN the difference BETWEEN...
"YOUR power"
And
"GODS power".
 

Gadgetere

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@Taken Interesting that Romans 8.9 says: 'Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His'; in other words, all true believers - born again of the Spirit of God - are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
Exactly that -- we are indwelt by the Son and the Spirit, or we're not saved. That's the issue -- a truly indwelt person can return to walking in sin, which means no longer indwelt.

That's why this is important to me. "Encourage one another, lest any one of you be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God". With all my heart I pray my words encourage each person here; for you are my treasure, if we endure we will be brothers and sisters in Christ -- forever...
 

Gadgetere

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Nope. Aren’t you trying to separate two truths? One that Pharaoh hardened his heart and two that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart? Or trying to dismiss the latter?
As we discussed, "God-hardening", is a recognized literary device. "God-hardened" (Ex10:1), is really "Pharaoh-hardened-himself" (Ex9:34). Samuel agrees, 1Sam6:6. Samuel did not think God had anything to do with it...

The point is, God hardening one’s heart is not evil nor makes God unrighteous.
Well sure it does!
Only in the natural mind of men who think that they know better than God what is righteous and what is not.
Come on -- in Jesus' words (Matt12), that would make God's house DIVIDED. His house is not divided, he does not conspire with sin.
God does not arbitrarily harden a person’s heart. He does so according to the counsel of His will. We know the story of Pharaoh, and Israel. God’s hardening is not so different from what God did to wicked man as Paul tells us in Romans 1.
Yes it is -- God turning around and walking away from men who choose evil, is a UNIVERSE apart from God reaching down and sculpting sin into anyone's heart.

Tell me -- in Rom9, "does not the Potter have the right to make what he wants out of the clay?" -- are there TWO vessels in view (God takes one blank lump of clay and shapes one into "ti-me honor", and shapes the other into "atimia-dishonor-vessels-of-wrath"?

Or are there THREE vessels in view -- "ti-me-honor" (saved), "atimia-common" (saved), and a THIRD vessel that prepared THEMSELVES for wrath (as Rom2:4 says "store up wrath for themselves by their hard and unrepentant heart")? (Oops, they could not store wrath for themselves, if that heart was hardened by God!)

Two vessels, or three?

It is either you believe what scriptures says as written or believe what you want it to say. Scripture says God hardened Pharaoh and also Israel. On the other hand you say God did not. Who am I to believe?
Please explain how God can harden a heart into unbelief and wickedness, and not have a "divided house"?

...and how could He judge men if He's the one who hardened them?

Scriptures says God has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
Outta context; we have to read that with 11:32, "He ...has mercy on ALL MEN". Pas anthropos, no way to make that "a few", or "some-of-all-types".

Romans9:11-21 is one of the Primaries of Calvinism; it absolutely does not promote Predestined Election (that is, He creates some to receive His mercy and be righteous, but He creates the rest to be hardened and wicked). God is not a false judge.

You seem to say God does not harden whom He wills. Whom am I to believe?
Rom9:15 does use "Semitic View", and fits the theme of the whole chapter -- "Also Gentiles". Succinctly, "If God wants to have mercy on Gentiles, who are YOU oh Jewish person to object?"

But even you know whom shall we believe.
We have to read the Scriptures as the writers intended, in context, often in Greek or Hebrew, and along with all the rest of Scriptures; we cannot refuse any, and "Scripture interprets Scripture". We cannot embrace a "proof" from one verse, if that conflicts another.

I do not deny that Pharaoh hardened himself, but I also do not deny, which you do, that God hardened Pharaoh.
Then God's house is divided, and He falsely judges men for hard-hearted sinfulness. Because He actually caused it.
 

Pythagorean12

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P12, what is your answer to post 300? How do these verses NOT solidly warn against "turning away from Jesus and salvation"?

How do they not say what they say?
I think we can agree these questions and their debate have gone on for centuries. And will continue until the end of time.
And the perspectives of each Christian in answering these questions will be unique. And we as those individual saved indwelt members of the church will never all agree on one answer.
For me, I accept Jesus knows this. And that's why at the heart of his message the answer is very simple.

Eternal Salvation. And no one will ever take from his hand those whom the Father has given him.
Because God knew us before the foundation of this world. We didn't choose him, he chose us.
We are sealed with his holy spirit.
And we can never be lost again.
 
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Grailhunter

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I think we can agree these questions and their debate have gone on for centuries.

Actually the OSAS concept is very new. The theme of the Bible is not sin all ya want and guaranteed heaven. The description of Heaven is not that it will be filled with evildoers and God and Good people will be damned to live for eternity with evil. God has never shown a tolerance for evil, much less rewarding it with Heaven.....there is another place for that. That is one of many reasons that the Apostles kept warning Christians about sinning. The theme of the New Testament is not a complicacy for sin or a God that rewards it. Christians can sin themselves to Hell. The Christians that wrote after the biblical error showed zero tolerance for sin or the belief that evildoers would go to Heaven

OSAS had it begins in the 60's with the peace, love, smoke pot movement. Social acceptance of social morals and sinful lifestyles. The desire to modify biblical morals so they would not be so condemning of homosexuals, drug use, and sexual immorality, etc. You will see no debates in history on OSAS.
 

BloodBought 1953

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Actually the OSAS concept is very new


Not according to Jesus, the Originator and Chief Proponent Of OSAS...... need proof?
“ All of those that Believe In me Already Have Eternal Life and shall NEVER come under Condemnation”

A five year old could see it. It just takes “eye’s to see”....

Thank you, Jesus for your Amazing Grace and thank you for being the King Of OSAS.......2000 years and running....not “ new” by ANY stretch of the imagination.....please “open the eyes” of the Confused and poorly taught people here and elsewhere.....
 

Pythagorean12

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Actually the OSAS concept is very new. The theme of the Bible is not sin all ya want and guaranteed heaven. The description of Heaven is not that it will be filled with evildoers and God and Good people will be damned to live for eternity with evil. God has never shown a tolerance for evil, much less rewarding it with Heaven.....there is another place for that. That is one of many reasons that the Apostles kept warning Christians about sinning. The theme of the New Testament is not a complicacy for sin or a God that rewards it. Christians can sin themselves to Hell. The Christians that wrote after the biblical error showed zero tolerance for sin or the belief that evildoers would go to Heaven

OSAS had it begins in the 60's with the peace, love, smoke pot movement. Social acceptance of social morals and sinful lifestyles. The desire to modify biblical morals so they would not be so condemning of homosexuals, drug use, and sexual immorality, etc. You will see no debates in history on OSAS.
That is because the acronym OSAS is new. Whereas, what is today referred to with the OSAS acronyms, is a synopsis of the Gospel truth.

I think the disparity enters when the falsehood, that eternal security in Christ implies a license to sin, is broached .

However that can easily be overcome by the truth. That eternal security in Christ imparts no such thing. And as such is then only a factor in our exegesis if we permit ourselves to be distracted by such nonsense.
 
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Grailhunter

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That is because the acronym OSAS is new. Whereas, what is today referred to with the OSAS acronyms, is a synopsis of the Gospel truth.

I think the disparity enters when the falsehood, that eternal security in Christ implies a license to sin, is broached .

However that can easily be overcome by the truth. That eternal security in Christ imparts no such thing. And as such is then only a factor in our exegesis if we permit ourselves to be distracted by such nonsense.

The truth is that it is a new belief.
You have to be careful about slogans that do not appear in the Bible....eternal security...Trinity.....original sin....do not appear in the Bible.
If eternal security were true there would have been no reason for the Apostles to warn Christians about sinning and the eternal punishment of Hell if they did.....
This belief does not appear in the Bible or Christian history.
This belief is false and can lead people to Hell.

Freedom of religion....I don't care if you believe Christ was a flying saucer pilot and He had Scotty beam Him up. Just do not try to pass it off as biblical....cause I will call you on it.
 

Pythagorean12

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The truth is that it is a new belief.
You have to be careful about slogans that do not appear in the Bible....eternal security...Trinity.....original sin....do not appear in the Bible.
If eternal security were true there would have been no reason for the Apostles to warn Christians about sinning and the eternal punishment of Hell if they did.....
This belief does not appear in the Bible or Christian history.
This belief is false and can lead people to Hell.

Freedom of religion....I don't care if you believe Christ was a flying saucer pilot and He had Scotty beam Him up. Just do not try to pass it off as biblical....cause I will call you on it.
You won't call me on anything sir. Nothing is so shameful as a bully seeking to divide the church while invoking Christ.

I've said my piece. You choose to not believe in the eternal security of Christ, wrongly thinking it is a license to sin. Don't for one minute pretend that to be Biblical.
Those who are in Christ do not make a habit of sinning. Eternal security is the Gospel.

Denying that is at your peril. Come your time God shall call you on that.

This concludes my exchange with you on this topic.
 
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