OSAS.... what does this really mean ?

[Truman]

That is how we receive the Spirit. "The Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did us at the beginning; ...God gave them the same gift as He also gave us after believing." Acts11:15-17

Verse 16 calls that "baptized-with-the-Holy-Spirit" -- there is no second-event-baptism, it simply means what Peter said; "they received the Spirit just as we did after believing".

I remember when Holy Spirit fell on me...it was like somebody dumped a bucket of water on me and everyone else worshipping around the piano.
I remember when the tongue of fire flew into me...then tongues came out of me! God is awesome!
The Spirit was on me...and then at one point was in me! Hallelujah!
"17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you." - John 14:17

 

[Gadgetere]

Yes we discussed this already. And for you God-hardening is just a literary way of saying that He did not harden them whom scriptures says God hardened. On the other hand I take it God hardened those whom Scriptures says He hardened.

Scripture (such as Ex10:1, Ex9:34, 1Sam6:6) says it was not a "joint-hardening", Pharaoh did it to himself. Except Ex10:1 says God did it. But the others say Pharaoh did it. Nothing says "they both did".

Why won't you accept that God cannot be complicit in sin?

God hardens whom He wills to harden. (Rom.9:18). “Semitic view” could not explain that away.

You can't wrest one verse from a passage that must be read together (and together with chapters 10 and 11). Yes Semitic View does explain it, that verse must fit Rm11:32, God has mercy on all men.

Understand what is happening in Rom9 -- the whole thing is "also Gentiles". See verse 24! Paraphrased, "If God wants to also save Gentiles, who are YOU oh Jewish person to object?!"

You argue that such would make God complicit in sin.

There is no argument, it would...

Paul answers you in the verse immediately after saying that, as follows:

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”

"Will" here, is "boulema" -- more decree. Compare this with John6:40, where "will" is thelema, more desire; "this is the WILL of My Father that all who see (Me) and believe may have eternal life."

But verse 19 is an antagonistic response from a Jewish person indignant about Gentiles being equally saved! In essence, Paul is saying, "If God wants to also save Gentiles, DEAL with it!"

Why would Paul say that if God-hardening there is in the “Semitic view” which you use to mean that it is not actually God who hardened but that or is actually the man that hardened himself? Paul does not make any sense then of that were the case.

So certainly and definitely no. God hardening one’s heart is not evil nor makes God unrighteous.

"Hardening" is to evil sin and unbelief that falls away from God -- Heb3:8-13. Do you think God could do that and not get His hands dirty? 1Jn3 says "he who practices righteousness IS righteous, even as He is righteous, he who practices wickedness is of the devil". God does not get to collaborate in hardening-hearts-towards-sin, but CALL it "righteous" just because He's God (and "His ways are far above us").

Come on, Tong, when God judges people -- if He actually did the hardening-towards-unbelief, how could He judge them? He could not!

Of course God does not conspire with sin. Nobody is saying that.

That is what "hardening" means!

And who is saying that God is reaching down and sculpting sin into anyone’s heart?

What is your understanding of Rom9:21? What was the eternal position of the "atimia-dishonor" clay? Saved, or wrath-prepared-for-destruction?

In Romans 9, 1 lump of clay. From out of that one lump God has the right to make two vessels, one for honor and one for dishonor.

Right; and what is "dishonor" -- is it the same as the vessels in verse 22?

Now, I may just be slow, but what is your point in bringing this up?

It's an important point -- does God harden blank clay, "not yet done anything good or bad" (11), into vessels-of-wrath?

God, hardening a heart, does not mean He makes one wicked and sin. Nope. God hardens one heart, according to the counsel of His will and His purpose.

You confuse me -- what does God "harden hearts" into, except unbelief and sin?

 

[Gadgetere]

Being raised by a socialist, I used to believe that Jesus was the Christmas baby and had something to do with the Easter bunny. When I was 14, I was nagged into going to church. While there, a guy read John 3:16 to me, and as he did, I saw somewhere else. I saw a sword, held by a hand, thrust through a curtain and plunge into my belly!

Ouch!

I knew it was true! I've always believed it since...I've never had to try. I had no idea it was going to happen. That was 1973 during the Jesus People revival and it took place at a Pentecostal church. I think He wants everyone else to come to Him, too...He's like that, you know.

I'm really pleased to hear you say that, Truman. Scripture is so clearly "unlimited atonement", and the idea of "sovereign-predestined-salvation" (limited atonement) is an assault to God's character. Limited Atonement (or Reformed Theology), has severe conflicts in Scripture. For instance, Matt9:12-13. Jesus said, "It is not the healthy that need a physician, but the sick; I came not for the righteous but for sinners." Now wait, if "Predestined Salvation" was the theme, then Jesus coming for the unregenerated is useless because they cannot believe! Jesus could not have come for them!

But once the "elect" are sovereignly/monergistically regenerated, they are because of that sovereign-heart-change, RIGHTEOUS, and do not need Jesus the Physician/Savior! He could not have come for the regenerated, either!

There must be some connection between who Jesus came for (He plainly said "for sinners"), and men becoming regenerated and righteous! What possible connection can there be, unless sinners can believe and through that belief and receiving Jesus, become righteous? That works perfectly!

Yes, Truman, Jesus came for everyone; and each of us decides either to love God, or to love sin. Jn3:18-21, Rom2:6-8, on and on!

 

[Gadgetere]

I remember when Holy Spirit fell on me...it was like somebody dumped a bucket of water on me and everyone else worshipping around the piano.
I remember when the tongue of fire flew into me...then tongues came out of me! God is awesome!
The Spirit was on me...and then at one point was in me! Hallelujah!
"17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you." - John 14:17

And that is also what happened to Cornelius & company, they spoke in other tongues (languages). Have you ever argued with a Church of Christ member? "Waterbaptism is part of salvation"? They contend Cornelius was not saved until the water!

(I have a section in my book about waterbaptism; it is NOT part of salvation, it is "something we do", and we are not saved by anything we do. Rom11:6, "ergon" something we do!

Jesus did the work of salvation on the Cross, sufficient and complete; there is no "second-thing" that we need to do, except to receive His finished work of grace. He did all of it.

BTW, that is how we overcome sin! We have no strength to resist sin; all we can do is throw ourselves at His feet, filling our hearts and souls with His presence. The closer we are to Him, the farther we are from sin -- and all our sins were already defeated two thousand years ago, on the Cross. THERE is our victory, it was His triumph that becomes ours when He indwells us.

 

[Truman]

Ouch!

I'm really pleased to hear you say that, Truman. Scripture is so clearly "unlimited atonement", and the idea of "sovereign-predestined-salvation" (limited atonement) is an assault to God's character. Limited Atonement (or Reformed Theology), has severe conflicts in Scripture. For instance, Matt9:12-13. Jesus said, "It is not the healthy that need a physician, but the sick; I came not for the righteous but for sinners." Now wait, if "Predestined Salvation" was the theme, then Jesus coming for the unregenerated is useless because they cannot believe! Jesus could not have come for them!

But once the "elect" are sovereignly/monergistically regenerated, they are because of that sovereign-heart-change, RIGHTEOUS, and do not need Jesus the Physician/Savior! He could not have come for the regenerated, either!

There must be some connection between who Jesus came for (He plainly said "for sinners"), and men becoming regenerated and righteous! What possible connection can there be, unless sinners can believe and through that belief and receiving Jesus, become righteous? That works perfectly!

Yes, Truman, Jesus came for everyone; and each of us decides either to love God, or to love sin. Jn3:18-21, Rom2:6-8, on and on!

It's hard to explain, but in '94, after I'd squandered my life that He helped me build and was near death and powerless due to cocaine, and after a 4 month search of desperation, He appeared to me in a vision as a burning bush, and somehow from it, He caused me to understand His complete and unconditional love for me, through Yeshua, I don't know why I'm telling you this, but I have already met my Master, My Father, my Destination, and I know that I know that I know that one day I will be in the fullness of His presence without end. Not because of anything I've ever done to deserve Him, but because of who He is. He is faithful, and He is worthy, and this life is His to do with as He pleases. Shalom!

 

[Gadgetere]

“Those That Believe In Me *Already Have* Eternal Life and shall NEVER come under Condemnation....”

It’s the Nuclear Bomb for all those that oppose OSAS —- Jesus, the Originator and Chief Proponent for OSAS was the One that dropped that bomb—- no sane man can argue against it....but boy, do they try...lol.....

John 5:24? Why do you suppose the verb "believing", is written in present active participle? Those who ARE BELIEVING. What if we cease to believe? Care to interact with Heb3:12-13?

 

[Gadgetere]

Everybody on both sides of the argument agrees that the believing person has eternal life and will not come into condemnation. That's not even in dispute. Of course believing people are saved, lol. But there is this new movement in the church called Hyper Grace that says even people who no longer believe have eternal life and will not come into condemnation. That's where sanity goes out the door in this argument about OSAS. Unbelievers do not inherit the kingdom, period.

If someone wants to believe that they can lose their salvation...I've heard it said that some can. I can't...I tried...lots!
I'm saved because God said so. He saved me. I wasn't looking for Him. I'm thankful now. I like to encourage people, just not argue.
"And Isaiah boldly says, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.” - Romans 10:20

The $64,000 question, is --- "can a truly-believing-person, come to unbelief"? Scripture overwhelmingly says, "Yes".

What do we do with all those verses that teach it?

Ferris, there really aren't "both sides of the argument"; OSNAS people cite verse after verse after verse, and OSAS will not interact with them. They may answer some, for awhile, but eventually they stop responding. But verses like Heb3:12-13 remain -- it is addressed to holy brethren, and warns us not to become hardened by deceitful sin to an unbelieving heart that falls away from God. Where is "the other side" of that? It's not negotiable, it has only one meaning...

 

[Gadgetere]

It's hard to explain, but in '94, after I'd squandered my life that He helped me build and was near death and powerless due to cocaine, and after a 4 month search of desperation, He appeared to me in a vision as a burning bush, and somehow from it, He caused me to understand His complete and unconditional love for me, through Yeshua, I don't know why I'm telling you this, but I have already met my Master, My Father, my Destination, and I know that I know that I know that one day I will be in the fullness of His presence without end. Not because of anything I've ever done to deserve Him, but because of who He is. He is faithful, and He is worthy, and this life is His to do with as He pleases. Shalom!

Why do I converse with people like you? My heart intends "encouragement"; your enthusiasm is spectacular -- whether or not if you come to understand "OSNAS", if you continue with that enthusiasm towards Christ, will we not be together when He comes?

To be blunt -- if I get stuck with the likes of you as a brother forever in the presence of Jesus, that will be a complete delight and joy. Same with every person here and/or reading this. He who said, "You can't take it with you", doesn't understand what real treasure is.

Real treasure, is the friends and family we make in Christ.
Yes, we can take it with us!

 

[Truman]

Why do I converse with people like you? My heart intends "encouragement"; your enthusiasm is spectacular -- whether or not if you come to understand "OSNAS", if you continue with that enthusiasm towards Christ, will we not be together when He comes?

To be blunt -- if I get stuck with the likes of you as a brother forever in the presence of Jesus, that will be a complete delight and joy. Same with every person here and/or reading this. He who said, "You can't take it with you", doesn't understand what real treasure is.

Real treasure, is the friends and family we make in Christ.
Yes, we can take it with us!

"I died, He lives, and dwells inside of me
I am finally assured of eternity
He never left my side, not even when I died
He was with me in the dark...right by my side...Faithful is His name! - by Truman Coates

I was dead...and now I'm alive...and I will dwell in the house of the Lord...forever! Hallelujah!

 

[Tong2020]

It is. While you are right in pointing out the Greek word “adunatos” as to mean powerless, a great majority of the translations, if not all, got the message right. For what

<<<What is the cause of the powerlessness-to-restore-them-to-repentance? Willful sin.>>>

I think this is one where misunderstanding of the passage comes from. Firstly, the question you posed is as if the powerlessness is not on the person, but on another. If that were what the passage is saying, who then is powerless to restore/renew them to repentance? But what the passage says is that it is impossible for the person to come to repentance, that is, to change his mind yet again, back to believe in Christ Jesus. He does

No, that doesn't fit -- King James says "SEEING AS", Nasb "SINCE", niv "BECAUSE", and nasb footnote "WHILE!" Consider what you understand vs what I understand:

Tong: The unrepentant person is powerless to turn back, he is "unredeemable"
Gadget:He who falls, KNOWS salvation, scorns the blood, tramples Jesus -- it's his WILLFUL SIN that's the problem, by indifferent sin it is as if Jesus would have to die over and over!

Beneath both of those are the words (which you repeated), "restore/renew". Clearly they WERE repentant (unsaved people just never are!), but now they are "jaded". Please see Rev2, "repent and do the deeds you did at first else I will remove your lampstand", and Rev3 "you are neither hot nor cold but lukewarm, I will vomit you from My mouth!"

One cannot be restored to a place he never was before, Tong.

<<<No, that doesn't fit >>>

If* what I was saying does not fit, please refute my position. For I said “the question you posed is as if the powerlessness is not on the person, but on another. If that were what the passage is saying, who then is powerless to restore/renew them to repentance?”

<<<-- King James says "SEEING AS", Nasb "SINCE", niv "BECAUSE", and nasb footnote "WHILE!">>>

What is your point here? Please also tell, what is the Greek text translated kjv "SEEING AS", Nasb "SINCE", niv "BECAUSE", and nasb footnote "WHILE!"?

<<<Tong: The unrepentant person is powerless to turn back, he is "unredeemable">>

Not what I am saying.

<<<One cannot be restored to a place he never was before, Tong.>>>

Yes. Obviously that is not the issue. The thing is, the powerlessness or impossibility of being restored/renewed.

<<<Gadget:He who falls, KNOWS salvation, scorns the blood, tramples Jesus -- it's his WILLFUL SIN that's the problem, by indifferent sin it is as if Jesus would have to die over and over!>>>

Dying over and over is not the point. For the death Jesus Christ died is a once and for all kind of death. The point being is that there is but no other Messiah or no other Jesus or no other Savior no other sacrifice.

You say that the cause as to why he cannot be restored them again to repentance, is willful sin. In other words you are pointing to one’s will or one’s power, as the power behind that causes him to be powerless to restored again to repentance? That by itself sounds absurd.

It's not "what I'm saying" -- we struggle between us to expose what the AUTHOR said and meant. I look forward to your thoughts on the previous post on "all of Hebrews".

Romans 8:38-39, which is as follows “For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Again, nothing will separate us from His love -- even if we perish, He still loves us and grieves over losing us.

Jude20-21 (don't remember which chapter), "Build yourselves in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in His love" What happens if we don't keep ourselves in His love?

"chorizo" -- separate/divide/part/put-asunder, similar to "harpazo" force in Jn10:26-28.

Faith-to-enter is our voluntary choice (Jn10:9); how do we not have the same choice tomorrow, and the next day?

<<<Again, nothing will separate us from His love -- even if we perish, He still loves us and grieves over losing us.>>>

Context does not speak of His love as that which you say nor alludes to that nor refers to that. Those who perish to hell are totally separate from God and will forever will not have a loving relationship with God nor will God with them.

<<<Jude20-21 (don't remember which chapter), "Build yourselves in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in His love" What happens if we don't keep ourselves in His love?>>>

These verses tells them, in comparison with, that they are not whom Jude tells them about, those in vs. 4,8,10-19. And so Jude in v.20 says “But you….” Verses 20-21 is not an instruction, but a description of what they do in contrast to them, making a distinction.

Besides, as to why it is impossible for him to be restored back is expressed in Hebrews 6:6as follows “since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God,”.

Why would it be "as if they are crucifying Jesus over again"?

For to be restored back to repentance, means that they will have to be reconciled again to God, which necessitates for Jesus to die again for them to be reconciled. For after they have been reconciled before, and later become enemies of God after, what can they offer to God as a propitiation for their unbelief? That would necessitate for Jesus to once again come in the flesh and offer it yet again for that purpose. And that will not happen again. So, Repentance unto God is rendered impossible for them.

If they have truly believed at first that Jesus is the Messiah, and later truly believed that He is not, where does that put them? If that could be, to “truly believe” is made to mean not what it truly means. When one truly believes, the other is made impossible. It is either one truly believed then, or not. If they did, they would not later not truly believed. If they did not, then and only then would it be possible that they can later truly believe.

Does not take away the fact, that a situation where one falls away, renders the one as forever lost because as it is impossible for one to be renewed back to repentance, for the reason given in the end part of verse 6. And this, if at all, it could happen, renders Jesus Christ to have not fulfilled the will of the Father concerning those whom He had given to the Son to raise up in the last day unto eternal life.

It's all about why they are in unrepentance. God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts17:26-31) --- is repentance a real-estate in which we have to be diligent to walk, or not?

(Hint -- 1Jn1:7-9)

Hebrews 6:4-6 is not all about why they are in ‘unrepentance’.

Of course, what matters is what scriptures say. And we both are here trying to tell each other what, in our understanding is what scriptures say. Sadly we differ. And so we reason.

And that's why we strive for "Scripture-interprets-Scripture", that we connect enough passages so the answer is consistent.

<<<the writer clearly said it was their willful sinfulness that's the problem.>>>

Nope. But yes, that is what you say.

Why do you think NASB footnotes it "While"?

I have no idea as to why. Do you know what is the Greek text NASB translates “since” and have a footnote of “while”?

<<<You really think "enlightened", "tasted good word of God and powers of age to come" (exactly the same as "Jesus geuomai-tasteddeath Heb2:9), "PARTNERS in the Holy Spirit", are "never-truly/actually-saved"?>>>

Look at Israel. Were they not enlightened when God have shown to them who He is? Have they not shared tasted the good word of God? Of course they did. However, are they all true believers?

The "clincher", is "metochos-partakers/partners of the Holy Spirit". The word is saved in 3:1, 3:14, and 12:8; how can it be "not-saved" in the fourth incarnation? The Spirit does not partner with unsaved.

Nobody is saying that the Holy Spirit partner with unsaved.

Fourth incarnation? What is this?

The very reason, as I gather, why he writes and speak to them in such manner, is exactly because he sees not in them what is expected of a true believer in God and in Jesus Christ, in the gospel that had been preached to them by the apostles. For if that were not so, he would find no reason to write to them these things.

Please read all of Hebrews, previous post -- if the writer believed in OSAS, then who are all the warnings written to?

But if it's "forever impossible to turn them to repentance", the writer is pretty daft to pen all of these words -- isn't he?

Warnings are for those who needed to be warned. And they are those whom the writer sees, in his judgement, to show behavior and character unexpected or unbecoming of a true Christian or a true believer.

Such language also are used on those weak in faith or babes in Christ, as a manner of teaching or feeding them spiritual “meat”, that they may grow in knowledge, unto maturity in the faith.

Tong
R4736

 

[Taken]

No one denies that eternal life is a gift; but, see Rom5:17, saved are those who receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness. The question between us -- if we receive the gift, why don't we have the same volition tomorrow, or the next day or the next? Can't any gift be thrown away?

'Can any gift be thrown away'??
It depends.
Told you and explained to you already, regarding a Spiritual Relationship with the Lord God.

There ARE Gifts from God THAT ARE;
TEMPORARY
Understanding of a TEMPORARY gift of God...
IS Understood, IF that gift CAN BE, lost to the individual.
* Understanding A Offered GIFT of God, NOT received by the Person, IS a lost gift, the person could have had.
* Understanding A GIFT received of the PERSON,
and KEPT BY the person, IS vunerable, to BECOME lost, BY the person being INFLUENCED to NOT KEEP the gift.
* Understanding A Gift received of the PERSON,
And BEING KEPT by the Person....result in the Lord God......BEING "WITH" THAT PERSON.
* Understanding the Lord God "WITH" that person, that the Lord God SHALL ONLY remain "WITH" that person, "IF" that person KEEPS his Gift.
* Understanding, the Lord God OFFERS "ADDITIONALLY" A WAY for an Individual "TO receive and KEEP "WITH" that man, his received Gift of God....FOREVER.
* Understanding, the WAY is FOR GODS WORKS to KEEP that mans given and received GIFT...
BY, through, of......GODS POWER....'IN" that man.

Why you continue to ask the same thing over and over, when Expressily I said to you...hear, ready, study, learn the difference between...
Mans Power to keep a gift of God...and God WITH the man....as long as the MAN endures, keeps his gift.
Gods Power to keep a gift of God...God WITH the man FOREVER....by Gods POWER "IN" the man.
Gods POWER "IN" the man...IS the PARAMOUNT difference...
Nothing is greater than Gods Power.
Gods POWER "with" a man can fade away.
Gods POWER "in" a man IS a PERMANENT, Assurance, God WILL FOREVER BE WITH THAT MAN. Ie OSAS.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Yes. The writer believes (by presumption) they all are. However, that does not mean that they all actually are. Whether they all are already saved or not, who the already saved, and who are not yet, he could only say.

Think about what you said -- if the writer "presumes they were saved", why would he express movement? "And FALLING AWAY" (perhaps, "having-fallen-away") -- it's not credible to try "they were not really falling away, they were never there to begin with". Further, it says "restore-them-to-repentance" --- one cannot fall from a place he never was, nor can he be restored to what he never had.

And the message continues throughout the chapter -- as exposed in my post 342 "all of Hebrews", verses 7-8 expresses that one field is TILLED, but it can produce EITHER good fruit and be blessed, OR thorns and be cursed. Verses 11-12 worries that we need diligence TO not imitate the falling but those who by faith and patience inherit the promises.

Any way "diligence to imitate those who by faith ...inherit the promises", does not intend "diligence to continue in salvation"? So many verses say that; "building yourselves in faith, keep yourselves in His love" (Jude20-21). "Walk in Jesus, guard against men deceiving you away from Jesus" (Col2:6-8). "Guard against deceivers that you not shrink-in-shame when Jesus comes" (1Jn2:26-28), "Guard against deceivers that you not lose what you've wrought; anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching has not God, he who abides has the Father and the Son."

Don't these (and so many more) all say the same thing? 1Tim4:16 -- "take care about yourself and your teaching, PERSEVERE in these -- as you do you will save yourselves". Rev3:11, "take care lest anyone STEAL YOUR CROWN". What do you think I'm missing in all of these?

<<<if the writer "presumes they were saved", why would he express movement?>>>

It seems you are just repeating your arguments, though in just a different form.

And so, I will repeat what I already said related to this. The writer knows not the heart of man. As such he does not know who the true believers are and who are not. That’s why, all there is for him, is to presume that they all had truly believed and so were as he said were in verses 4-5.

Besides, if you notice, the writer in verse 4, did not say “it is impossible for you….”, but said “it is impossible for those….”. The writer was telling and teaching them of a truth about true believers, some spiritual meat (read v.1-3) so to speak concerning those who are truly saved. He was not necessarily talking about them nor was referring to them.

<<<verses 7-8 expresses that one field is TILLED, but it can produce EITHER good fruit and be blessed, OR thorns and be cursed.>>>

The ground burned or the thorns and thistles?

<<<Verses 11-12 worries that we need diligence TO not imitate the falling but those who by faith and patience inherit the promises.>>>

11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

This is an expressed desire by the writer and company, for them. A sort of encouragement. For the writer sees them as having been sluggish. He had expressed this in 5:11. They had become dull of hearing, indicative of their not showing growth unto maturity. They do not show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope, such as were those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Who do you say are those whom the writer refers to who inherit the promises?

<<<So many verses say that; "building yourselves in faith, keep yourselves in His love" (Jude20-21). "Walk in Jesus, guard against men deceiving you away from Jesus" (Col2:6-8). "Guard against deceivers that you not shrink-in-shame when Jesus comes" (1Jn2:26-28), "Guard against deceivers that you not lose what you've wrought; anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching has not God, he who abides has the Father and the Son.">>>

Have addressed Jude 1:20-21. The others are words of admonition to not get deceived, for there were many deceivers. To whom does the admonitions be of meaning but to those who have a showing of the need thereof. Not so much as to say, when deceived, that the already saved will be unsaved. But that they will incur great lost, for then, if they will act in their deception, nothing will they do that isn’t sinful.

<<<Don't these (and so many more) all say the same thing? 1Tim4:16 -- "take care about yourself and your teaching, PERSEVERE in these -- as you do you will save yourselves". Rev3:11, "take care lest anyone STEAL YOUR CROWN". What do you think I'm missing in all of these?>>>

Do you believe:

• Salvation is of God.
• Salvation is by God.
• Salvation is by grace.
• Salvation is through faith.

If not, then I think, that’s what you are missing. If you do, read those scriptures again. But this time, take the reading that does not go against those or

A misbehaving child, disobedient he may be, and commits mistakes, remains a child no less,

So the Prodigal (Lk15:11-32) is still his father's son? The father invites people over, and -- "This is my son -- I know he's a rotting corpse, but he's still my son, say hello!" If that is not expressing "fall-from-salvation", then Antinomianism is the theme, when the Prodigal was in the far land drunk carousing fornicating he did not relfect unsalvation.

Firstly, it must be noted that, that is a parable.

<<<So the Prodigal (Lk15:11-32) is still his father's son?>>>

There is nothing in the parable that says he was no longer his father’s son. So, the answer to that is yes.

and is disciplined and chastised

In Heb12:7-9 if we REFUSE God's discipline (even though WE WERE partners in it), then we are no longer sons but have become illegitimate!

Perhaps you want to read again Hebrews 12:7-8. For it says nothing like that. Here’s verse 8.

8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

James says that, him who turns a wandering (sinning) brethren back from the error of his way, will save him from death and cover a multitude of sins. James speaks of the good of bringing a wandering brethren back from the error of his way. He is not saying that one becomes the savior of the wandering brethren unto eternal life nor is the wandering brethren when brought back is saved again unto eternal life. It is not the second death that James was referring to there by “death”.

Antinomianism again? One can be "wandered-away-from-the-truth", and "have-uncovered/unforgiven-sins", but still be saved?

(I really don't think you believe that...)

You always make reference to antinomianism. I don’t know why. I haven’t even mentioned such. I only talk about scriptures. So, don’t expect me to defend antinomianism. I wouldn’t and couldn’t.

Better if you just stick to refuting my position, if you will. Now there is nothing in what you said there refutes anything in my post in the quote-box.

As I said, I checked out Anthropomorphism in the link you provided. As you pointed out "Anthropomorphsim" is ascribing to animals or others what men do themselves. It is not ascribing to God the act what men do to themselves, which is what you suggest.

As you and I learned, "God-hardened-Pharoah" (ex10:1), is the same as "Pharaoh-hardened-himself". You said both were true, but if so that would charge God with participation in his wickedness. God cannot do that, His "house would be divided". Matt12:25-26.

<<<"God-hardened-Pharoah" (ex10:1), is the same as "Pharaoh-hardened-himself">>>

No they are not. Pharaoh hardened himself. God hardened Pharaoh. They aren’t the same.

<<<You said both were true, >>>

Yes both were true - Pharaoh hardened himself and God hardened Pharaoh.

<<<but if so that would charge God with participation in his wickedness.>>>

Nope. I have already explained to you why, elsewhere in my other response post to you.

Tong
R4737

 

[Tong2020]

Tong: And may I ask, you don’t believe that Christ would not let His work and precious blood wasted in any way, shape, or form, or do you? I don’t think you believe and would believe He would.

One of God's basic characteristics (His nature), is "God is love" (1Jn4:16); and love cannot demand its own way (1Cor13:5). It's not GOD who "wastes the blood", it's people like in Heb19:29 who were sanctified by Jesus' blood, but now scorns that very blood that sanctified him, insults the Spirit Who indwelt him, and tramples Jesus who (once) saved him. Same message in 2Pet1:5-11 --- the guy who "was purified from former sins" (could only have been "saved"), but now LACKS the godly fruits that are not optional for us, he is the bad example "therefore (don't BE like him) be all the more diligent to make your calling and election (salvation!) bebaios-firm.

...there's that word "diligent" again, and continuing-in-salvation is in view...

<<<It's not GOD who "wastes the blood">>>

Good that you see that God would not waste the blood of Jesus.

You said it is others who wastes his blood. How could others waste it, when it was not they who offered it, but Jesus? He gave up His blood for the benefit of people, a people whom the Father had given Him. He call them His sheep. And He knows His sheep. He gave His life for His sheep. And he will give His sheep, eternal life.

He will find them and gather them, that there will be one flock and one Shepherd, Jesus Christ. And finding them, He will keep them all and lose not one, else wasted His blood on anyone that he lose.

Gadgetere: We enter His fold and become His sheep (Jn10:9, "tis-anyone") by conscious choice, but any of us can become a Prodigal if we choose. As Heb3:12-14 scaringly warns against.

I don’t see how what you say there answered my question and not dodged it.

Please help me understand what I dodged, and I'll strive to answer it...

question:

“in figurative language, may I ask, would you say you have eaten of Jesus’ flesh and have drank of His blood?

Tong
R4738

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I noticed that a great number of those scriptures you cited there deals with not being deceived.

Before I go to comment on each of those verses, let me ask what is your thought on this:

When one is deceived, does that make him a sinner?

There are only two "real estates" in the Universe --- in Christ, or in sin. Yes if the deceit is successful (as in 1Tim4:1, "falling away from the faith", is 100% into sin. The same as 2Pet2:18, they are enticed back into defilements -- sin.

Is it not that the deceiver is the sinner and not the one deceived?

Tong
R4739

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Did you receive the Holy Spirit because you came to Jesus, that is, you believed in Jesus?

That is how we receive the Spirit. "The Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did us at the beginning; ...God gave them the same gift as He also gave us after believing." Acts11:15-17

Verse 16 calls that "baptized-with-the-Holy-Spirit" -- there is no second-event-baptism, it simply means what Peter said; "they received the Spirit just as we did after believing".

Okay. Now, how and why did they come to believe? Or perhaps, how and why did you come to believe?

Tong
R4740

 

[Gadgetere]

"I died, He lives, and dwells inside of me
I am finally assured of eternity
He never left my side, not even when I died
He was with me in the dark...right by my side...Faithful is His name! - by Truman Coates

I was dead...and now I'm alive...and I will dwell in the house of the Lord...forever! Hallelujah!

Amen.

Where you and I have agreement, is on things like "He will never leave us nor forsake us"; and "He remains faithful". (Heb13:5, 2Tim2:13) And if we each encourage the other, then when "temptation/affliction/persecution" confronts either one of us (Lk8:13, Mk4:9), then you will remember the brother that told you "diligence is required of us", and both of us will continue knowing that even though diligence is required of us, He is our power to persevere.

And Jesus will return, and all who rest in Him will be family forever. That is our truth, our identity, and our beloved Savior Whom we serve.

 

[Truman]

Amen.

Where you and I have agreement, is on things like "He will never leave us nor forsake us"; and "He remains faithful". (Heb13:5, 2Tim2:13) And if we each encourage the other, then when "temptation/affliction/persecution" confronts either one of us (Lk8:13, Mk4:9), then you will remember the brother that told you "diligence is required of us", and both of us will continue knowing that even though diligence is required of us, He is our power to persevere.

And Jesus will return, and all who rest in Him will be family forever. That is our truth, our identity, and our beloved Savior Whom we serve.

Common ground will unite us.

 

[Gadgetere]

I what I was saying ( ) does not fit, please refute my position. For I said “the question you posed is as if the powerlessness is not on the person, but on another. If that were what the passage is saying, who then is powerless to restore/renew them to repentance?”

The powerlessness is on the person.

(Goodness you made a long post!)

<<<-- King James says "SEEING AS", Nasb "SINCE", niv "BECAUSE", and nasb footnote "WHILE!">>>

What is your point here? Please also tell, what is the Greek text translated kjv "SEEING AS", Nasb "SINCE", niv "BECAUSE", and nasb footnote "WHILE!"?

The powerlessness is on the person -- they cannot be turned to repentance BECAUSE OF their willful sin. NASB footnote writes it "while" -- fully implying that if they do not continue in unbelief, they can be grafted in again. (Wait -- didn't I read that somewhere?)

<<<Tong: The unrepentant person is powerless to turn back, he is "unredeemable">>

Not what I am saying.

<<<One cannot be restored to a place he never was before, Tong.>>>

Yes. Obviously that is not the issue. The thing is, the powerlessness or impossibility of being restored/renewed.

<<<Gadget:He who falls, KNOWS salvation, scorns the blood, tramples Jesus -- it's his WILLFUL SIN that's the problem, by indifferent sin it is as if Jesus would have to die over and over!>>>

Dying over and over is not the point. For the death Jesus Christ died is a once and for all kind of death. The point being is that there is but no other Messiah or no other Jesus or no other Savior no other sacrifice.

That is true --- yet -- (you thought I was gonna say "but") -- if we cease walking in Jesus (Col2:6-8), and walk again in sin (Rm8:12), we must die. Exactly as Heb10:26ff says, His sacrifice will no longer cover us...

<<<Again, nothing will separate us from His love -- even if we perish, He still loves us and grieves over losing us.>>>

Context does not speak of His love as that which you say nor alludes to that nor refers to that. Those who perish to hell are totally separate from God and will forever will not have a loving relationship with God nor will God with them.

But does He LOVE them and desire them NOT to perish? Yes! 1Tim2:4, Ezk18:30-31

<<<Jude20-21 (don't remember which chapter), "Build yourselves in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in His love" What happens if we don't keep ourselves in His love?>>>

These verses tells them, in comparison with, that they are not whom Jude tells them about, those in vs. 4,8,10-19. And so Jude in v.20 says “But you….” Verses 20-21 is not an instruction, but a description of what they do in contrast to them, making a distinction.

It is what it says -- an admonition to keep ourselves in His love.

...the possibility of not-keeping is clearly in view...

For to be restored back to repentance, means that they will have to be reconciled again to God, which necessitates for Jesus to die again for them to be reconciled.

Did you ever comment on Col1:21-23? We are reconciled through Jesus IF WE CONTINUE in the faith firm ...and not be moved away from Jesus! Why do you think Paul wrote that?

For after they have been reconciled before, and later become enemies of God after, what can they offer to God as a propitiation for their unbelief? That would necessitate for Jesus to once again come in the flesh and offer it yet again for that purpose. And that will not happen again. So, Repentance unto God is rendered impossible for them.

No, the question is "what empowered their disassociation"? Unbelief! If one is led BACK to the truth (faith!), his soul will be saved from death (thanatos physical-with-implication-of-Hell) and his sins covered (forgiven).

If they have truly believed at first that Jesus is the Messiah, and later truly believed that He is not, where does that put them? If that could be, to “truly believe” is made to mean not what it truly means. When one truly believes, the other is made impossible. It is either one truly believed then, or not. If they did, they would not later not truly believed. If they did not, then and only then would it be possible that they can later truly believe.

Belief is not salvation (1Jn2:19). Even though Acts16:31 says "believe" (so too Jn3:16), clearly only the kind of belief which fellowships with Jesus (Gal2:20, Jn17:3, 1Jn1:3, 1Jn5:11-13) confers eternal life.

(BTW -- anyone lurking and reading, and thinking he or she does NOT have to look up verses being cited, know that there will be a test when you don't expect it, and it WILL go on your permanent record!)

Hebrews 6:4-6 is not all about why they are in ‘unrepentance’.

I have no idea as to why. Do you know what is the Greek text NASB translates “since” and have a footnote of “while”?

Because anastauroō is in "present-active-participle".
Paradeigmatizō is also present-active-participle, "putting Him to shame" by their willful sin. Do you not see the connection between this and Heb10:26, and 3:8, 12-13, and 4:11? If we continue sinning willfully (which is exactly what is happening in 6:4-6!), His sacrifice no longer covers us; do not allow deceitful sin to harden us to falling away from God, do not imitate Israel's disobedience and unbelief and fall and fail to enter God's rest. It sounds pretty clear to me...

Nobody is saying that the Holy Spirit partner with unsaved.

Then you acknowledge the descriptive of those who were repentant and saved, but turn back to sin and are no longer "partnered/tasting/covered/forgiven/saved"?

Fourth incarnation? What is this?

"Metochos" appears four times -- also in Heb3:1, 3:14, and 12:8; those three places are "saved", can we make "partnered-in-the-Holy-Spirit" unsaved? You and I agree the Spirit does not partner with the unsaved. Those in Heb6:4-6 were saved, until they were "parapiptos-falling-away" (perhaps "having fallen")...

Warnings are for those who needed to be warned. And they are those whom the writer sees, in his judgement, to show behavior and character unexpected or unbecoming of a true Christian or a true believer.

That's correct. Now please connect 2Pet1:5-11 -- the godly qualities are not optional, we are to supply them in our faith; for he who LACKS those qualities is blind shortsighted having forgotten purification from former sins. Therefore be all the more diligent to make your calling and election (salvation!) firm/steadfast, as long as you practices these things you will never stumble/ptaio/become-wretched, in THIS way the gates of eternity will BE provided to us!

What do you think I'm missing?

Such language also are used on those weak in faith or babes in Christ, as a manner of teaching or feeding them spiritual “meat”, that they may grow in knowledge, unto maturity in the faith.

Please explain what kind of spiritual immaturity is it that can "be weak, babes, walking in sins, but are STILL SAVED"? Do we get any Monopoly-game "get-outta-jail" cards which will exempt us from 1Cor6:9-22, Eph5:5-6, and Gal5:19-21?

 

[Gadgetere]

'Can any gift be thrown away'??
It depends.
Told you and explained to you already, regarding a Spiritual Relationship with the Lord God.

There ARE Gifts from God THAT ARE;
TEMPORARY
Understanding of a TEMPORARY gift of God...
IS Understood, IF that gift CAN BE, lost to the individual.
* Understanding A Offered GIFT of God, NOT received by the Person, IS a lost gift, the person could have had.
* Understanding A GIFT received of the PERSON,
and KEPT BY the person, IS vunerable, to BECOME lost, BY the person being INFLUENCED to NOT KEEP the gift.
* Understanding A Gift received of the PERSON,
And BEING KEPT by the Person....result in the Lord God......BEING "WITH" THAT PERSON.
* Understanding the Lord God "WITH" that person, that the Lord God SHALL ONLY remain "WITH" that person, "IF" that person KEEPS his Gift.
* Understanding, the Lord God OFFERS "ADDITIONALLY" A WAY for an Individual "TO receive and KEEP "WITH" that man, his received Gift of God....FOREVER.
* Understanding, the WAY is FOR GODS WORKS to KEEP that mans given and received GIFT...
BY, through, of......GODS POWER....'IN" that man.

Why you continue to ask the same thing over and over, when Expressily I said to you...hear, ready, study, learn the difference between...
Mans Power to keep a gift of God...and God WITH the man....as long as the MAN endures, keeps his gift.
Gods Power to keep a gift of God...God WITH the man FOREVER....by Gods POWER "IN" the man.
Gods POWER "IN" the man...IS the PARAMOUNT difference...
Nothing is greater than Gods Power.
Gods POWER "with" a man can fade away.
Gods POWER "in" a man IS a PERMANENT, Assurance, God WILL FOREVER BE WITH THAT MAN. Ie OSAS.

Would you be willing to interact with my post 342, "the entire letter of Hebrews"? How does the entire letter chapter by chapter warn against "Falling-from-Salvation" (osnas)?

 

[marks]

The powerlessness is on the person.

(Goodness you made a long post!)

The powerlessness is on the person -- they cannot be turned to repentance BECAUSE OF their willful sin. NASB footnote writes it "while" -- fully implying that if they do not continue in unbelief, they can be grafted in again. (Wait -- didn't I read that somewhere?)

That is true --- yet -- (you thought I was gonna say "but") -- if we cease walking in Jesus (Col2:6-8), and walk again in sin (Rm8:12), we must die. Exactly as Heb10:26ff says, His sacrifice will no longer cover us...
But does He LOVE them and desire them NOT to perish? Yes! 1Tim2:4, Ezk18:30-31

It is what it says -- an admonition to keep ourselves in His love.

...the possibility of not-keeping is clearly in view...

Did you ever comment on Col1:21-23? We are reconciled through Jesus IF WE CONTINUE in the faith firm ...and not be moved away from Jesus! Why do you think Paul wrote that?

No, the question is "what empowered their disassociation"? Unbelief! If one is led BACK to the truth (faith!), his soul will be saved from death (thanatos physical-with-implication-of-Hell) and his sins covered (forgiven).

Belief is not salvation (1Jn2:19). Even though Acts16:31 says "believe" (so too Jn3:16), clearly only the kind of belief which fellowships with Jesus (Gal2:20, Jn17:3, 1Jn1:3, 1Jn5:11-13) confers eternal life.

(BTW -- anyone lurking and reading, and thinking he or she does NOT have to look up verses being cited, know that there will be a test when you don't expect it, and it WILL go on your permanent record!)

Because anastauroō is in "present-active-participle".
Paradeigmatizō is also present-active-participle, "putting Him to shame" by their willful sin. Do you not see the connection between this and Heb10:26, and 3:8, 12-13, and 4:11? If we continue sinning willfully (which is exactly what is happening in 6:4-6!), His sacrifice no longer covers us; do not allow deceitful sin to harden us to falling away from God, do not imitate Israel's disobedience and unbelief and fall and fail to enter God's rest. It sounds pretty clear to me...

Then you acknowledge the descriptive of those who were repentant and saved, but turn back to sin and are no longer "partnered/tasting/covered/forgiven/saved"?

"Metochos" appears four times -- also in Heb3:1, 3:14, and 12:8; those three places are "saved", can we make "partnered-in-the-Holy-Spirit" unsaved? You and I agree the Spirit does not partner with the unsaved. Those in Heb6:4-6 were saved, until they were "parapiptos-falling-away" (perhaps "having fallen")...

That's correct. Now please connect 2Pet1:5-11 -- the godly qualities are not optional, we are to supply them in our faith; for he who LACKS those qualities is blind shortsighted having forgotten purification from former sins. Therefore be all the more diligent to make your calling and election (salvation!) firm/steadfast, as long as you practices these things you will never stumble/ptaio/become-wretched, in THIS way the gates of eternity will BE provided to us!

What do you think I'm missing?

Please explain what kind of spiritual immaturity is it that can "be weak, babes, walking in sins, but are STILL SAVED"? Do we get any Monopoly-game "get-outta-jail" cards which will exempt us from 1Cor6:9-22, Eph5:5-6, and Gal5:19-21?

I read post after post after post, lengthy, convoluted, all this grammar and quotes and all this, just answer me this question . . .

Do you believe this passage is true as written? Just a yes or no. This is so simple.

Do you believe this is true? Yes? No?

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Much love!

PS @Ferris Bueller - question for you too . . .