Tong2020 said:
↑
Yes. The writer believes (by presumption) they all are. However, that does not mean that they all actually are. Whether they all are already saved or not, who the already saved, and who are not yet, he could only say.
Think about what you said -- if the writer "presumes they were saved", why would he express
movement? "And FALLING AWAY" (perhaps, "having-fallen-away") -- it's not credible to try
"they were not really falling away, they were never there to begin with". Further, it says "restore-them-to-repentance" --- one cannot fall from a place he never was, nor can he be restored to what he never had.
And the message continues throughout the chapter -- as exposed in my
post 342 "all of Hebrews", verses 7-8 expresses that one field is TILLED, but it can produce EITHER good fruit and be blessed, OR thorns and be cursed. Verses 11-12 worries that we need
diligence TO not imitate the falling but those who
by faith and patience inherit the promises.
Any way "diligence to imitate those who by faith ...inherit the promises", does not intend "diligence to continue in salvation"? So many verses say that; "building yourselves in faith, keep yourselves in His love" (Jude20-21). "Walk in Jesus, guard against men deceiving you away from Jesus" (Col2:6-8). "Guard against deceivers that you not shrink-in-shame when Jesus comes" (1Jn2:26-28), "Guard against deceivers that you not lose what you've wrought; anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching has not God, he who abides has the Father and the Son."
Don't these (and so many more) all say the same thing? 1Tim4:16 -- "take care about yourself and your teaching, PERSEVERE in these -- as you do
you will save yourselves". Rev3:11, "take care lest anyone STEAL YOUR CROWN". What do you think I'm missing in all of these?
<<<if the writer "presumes they were saved", why would he express
movement?>>>
It seems you are just repeating your arguments, though in just a different form.
And so, I will repeat what I already said related to this. The writer knows not the heart of man. As such he does not know who the true believers are and who are not. That’s why, all there is for him, is to presume that they all had truly believed and so were as he said were in verses 4-5.
Besides, if you notice, the writer in verse 4, did not say “it is impossible for you….”, but said “it is impossible for those….”. The writer was telling and teaching them of a truth about true believers, some spiritual meat (read v.1-3) so to speak concerning those who are truly saved. He was not necessarily talking about them nor was referring to them.
<<<verses 7-8 expresses that one field is TILLED, but it can produce EITHER good fruit and be blessed, OR thorns and be cursed.>>>
The ground burned or the thorns and thistles?
<<<Verses 11-12 worries that we need
diligence TO not imitate the falling but those who
by faith and patience inherit the promises.>>>
11 And
we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
This is an expressed desire by the writer and company, for them. A sort of encouragement. For the writer sees them as having been sluggish. He had expressed this in 5:11. They had become dull of hearing, indicative of their not showing growth unto maturity. They do not show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope, such as were those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Who do you say are those whom the writer refers to who inherit the promises?
<<<So many verses say that; "building yourselves in faith, keep yourselves in His love" (Jude20-21). "Walk in Jesus, guard against men deceiving you away from Jesus" (Col2:6-8). "Guard against deceivers that you not shrink-in-shame when Jesus comes" (1Jn2:26-28), "Guard against deceivers that you not lose what you've wrought; anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching has not God, he who abides has the Father and the Son.">>>
Have addressed Jude 1:20-21. The others are words of admonition to not get deceived, for there were many deceivers. To whom does the admonitions be of meaning but to those who have a showing of the need thereof. Not so much as to say, when deceived, that the already saved will be unsaved. But that they will incur great lost, for then, if they will act in their deception, nothing will they do that isn’t sinful.
<<<Don't these (and so many more) all say the same thing? 1Tim4:16 -- "take care about yourself and your teaching, PERSEVERE in these -- as you do
you will save yourselves". Rev3:11, "take care lest anyone STEAL YOUR CROWN". What do you think I'm missing in all of these?>>>
Do you believe:
- Salvation is of God.
- Salvation is by God.
- Salvation is by grace.
- Salvation is through faith.
If not, then I think, that’s what you are missing. If you do, read those scriptures again. But this time, take the reading that does not go against those or
A misbehaving child, disobedient he may be, and commits mistakes, remains a child no less,
So the Prodigal (Lk15:11-32) is
still his father's son? The father invites people over, and -- "This is my son -- I know he's a rotting corpse, but he's still my son, say hello!" If that is not expressing "fall-from-salvation", then Antinomianism is the theme, when the Prodigal was in the far land drunk carousing fornicating
he did not relfect unsalvation.
Firstly, it must be noted that, that is a parable.
<<<So the Prodigal (Lk15:11-32) is
still his father's son?>>>
There is nothing in the parable that says he was no longer his father’s son. So, the answer to that is yes.
and is disciplined and chastised
In Heb12:7-9 if we REFUSE God's discipline (even though WE WERE partners in it), then we are no longer sons but have become illegitimate!
Perhaps you want to read again Hebrews 12:7-8. For it says nothing like that. Here’s verse 8.
8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.
James says that, him who turns a wandering (sinning) brethren back from the error of his way, will save him from death and cover a multitude of sins. James speaks of the good of bringing a wandering brethren back from the error of his way. He is not saying that one becomes the savior of the wandering brethren unto eternal life nor is the wandering brethren when brought back is saved again unto eternal life. It is not the second death that James was referring to there by “death”.
Antinomianism again? One can be "wandered-away-from-the-truth", and "have-uncovered/unforgiven-sins", but still be saved?
(I really don't think you believe that...)
You always make reference to antinomianism. I don’t know why. I haven’t even mentioned such. I only talk about scriptures. So, don’t expect me to defend antinomianism. I wouldn’t and couldn’t.
Better if you just stick to refuting my position, if you will. Now there is nothing in what you said there refutes anything in my post in the quote-box.
As I said, I checked out Anthropomorphism in the link you provided. As you pointed out
"Anthropomorphsim" is ascribing to animals or others what men do themselves. It is not ascribing to God the act what men do to themselves, which is what you suggest.
As you and I learned, "God-hardened-Pharoah" (ex10:1), is the same as "Pharaoh-hardened-himself". You said
both were true, but if so that would charge God with participation in his wickedness. God cannot do that, His "house would be divided". Matt12:25-26.
<<<"God-hardened-Pharoah" (ex10:1), is the same as "Pharaoh-hardened-himself">>>
No they are not. Pharaoh hardened himself. God hardened Pharaoh. They aren’t the same.
<<<You said
both were true, >>>
Yes both were true - Pharaoh hardened himself and God hardened Pharaoh.
<<<but if so that would charge God with participation in his wickedness.>>>
Nope. I have already explained to you why, elsewhere in my other response post to you.
Tong
R4737