Understanding the Trinity.

[Scott Downey]

wait…. You’re saying not to worship Jesus???

No, make the connection, Only God is to be worshipped, so when Christ is worshipped, this proves Christ is God come in the flesh.
As they worship Him.
Matthew 2:1-2
New King James Version
Wise Men from the East
2 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, [a]wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, 2 saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”

 

[Pierac]

Your simply proving the Trinity of God in those verses.

How, by showing... The Holy Spirit is never worshiped, prayed to, or has a seat on a throne???

 

[Wrangler]

The Word was God. your denying Christ was God come in the flesh.

Figurative language is what you are denying.

Explicit language you are also denying. John tells us explicitly in 20:31 that nothing he wrote can be used to support the notion that Jesus is God incarnate because everything he wrote was to support that Jesus is God's Anointed.

 

[Scott Downey]

How, by showing... The Holy Spirit is never worshiped, prayed to, or has a seat on a throne???

We see the Trinity right here in this verse, in the NAME of these 3 persons of God.
Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

In verses the Holy Spirit also speaks. And also God the Father speaks, so right there shows 2 parts of the Trinity.

 

[Pierac]

I don't know if you worship Jesus Christ, do you?
Or do you consider Christ an idol.

You speak as a child... Stop posting what your pastor tells you as you sit and soak in your church. You sit in church as a little child waiting for your pastor to give you more milk! Listen to the Meat of Jesus....

If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father…" If we would be amongst the true worshipers we must be with Jesus worshiping this Father. Evidently, those who worship "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons in one God," Are not said by Jesus to be the true worshippers. Those who worship the Father as the "only true God" are. The worshipper of the One God, the Father, as Jesus’ own affirmation that he is the true worshipper.

This is the biblical pattern throughout. The so-called Lord's prayer, the model prayer, teaches us to "pray in this way: our Father who art in heaven…"(Matt. 6:9). This pattern of prayer and worship prescribed by our Lord Jesus is followed and sanctioned by every example given in Scripture. See the following:

“Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus; that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom.15:5-6).

" For this reason I bow my knees before the Father," (Eph 3:14)

" giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, " (Eph 5:20)

" We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, "( Col 1:3 )

Will you become a true worshiper... and worship the Father or follow a pagan Trintiy?

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on you as you sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that we could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!

 

[Scott Downey]

The Holy Spirit says about God the Father in this verse.
Hebrews 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you will hear His voice,

Here God is speaking about His Son
Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”

Trinity is not a confusing thing to understand, they are individual persons yet all of one. Their individual-ness is shown by one speaking about another one.

 

[Wrangler]

We see the Trinity right here in this verse, in the NAME of these 3 persons of God.
Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

So, by your standard, merely mentioning them makes them a 3-person-1-being God? If so, you must accept we have a 7-being-1 being God @ Rev 1:4. Grace and peace to you from the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come; from the sevenfold Spirit before his throne

And at the same time, you must accept we have a 2-person-1 being God @ John 1:18. No one has seen God at any time. The only Son, who is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.

And at the same time, you must accept we have a -1-person-1-being God @ Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD; there is no other God.

HINT: Just mentioning the players does not name the trinity, their relationship of co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal or the doctrine that one's salvation depends on believing this.

 

[Wrangler]

1 John 5:7

The KJV's most notorious corruption. This is not what this verse says in actuality.

 

[Scott Downey]

You speak as a child... Stop posting what your pastor tells you as you sit and soak in your church. You sit in church as a little child waiting for your pastor to give you more milk! Listen to the Meat of Jesus....

If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father…" If we would be amongst the true worshipers we must be with Jesus worshiping this Father. Evidently, those who worship "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons in one God," Are not said by Jesus to be the true worshippers. Those who worship the Father as the "only true God" are. The worshipper of the One God, the Father, as Jesus’ own affirmation that he is the true worshipper.

This is the biblical pattern throughout. The so-called Lord's prayer, the model prayer, teaches us to "pray in this way: our Father who art in heaven…"(Matt. 6:9). This pattern of prayer and worship prescribed by our Lord Jesus is followed and sanctioned by every example given in Scripture. See the following:

“Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus; that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom.15:5-6).

" For this reason I bow my knees before the Father," (Eph 3:14)

" giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, " (Eph 5:20)

" We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, "( Col 1:3 )

Will you become a true worshiper... and worship the Father or follow a pagan Trintiy?

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on you as you sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that we could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!

So then you refuse to worship Christ, I don't consider you a Christian then.
You do not follow the biblical pattern set out by God in scripture regarding said worship, and the many examples scripture gives where Christ is worshipped.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Since you do not worship Jesus Christ, you do not acknowledge the scriptures are of God.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24).

They didn't respond to this when you mentioned it before and I doubt they will now for it makes them look foolish.

They cannot acknowledge this great verse - unless they apply they same duality rational they did to John 17:3. Just because Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father does not mean we cannot at the same time truly worship Baal, Asherah, Allah, Buddha, Yeshua, Caesar, Augustus, the Japanese Emperor, etc.

They must deny the exclusivity aspect of plain language. If you are in, it necessary means you are not out, etc.

 

[Wrangler]

So then you refuse to worship Christ, I don't consider you a Christian then.

You are making the mistake of confusing Christians as trinitarians.

If you follow Christ, why do you deny his teaching to pray to the Father alone, to worship the Father alone? Jesus did not teach us to pray to a trinitarian God! I am a Christian who follows Christ, not a 4th century man-made construct completely absent from Scripture.

 

[Pierac]

We see the Trinity right here in this verse, in the NAME of these 3 persons of God.
Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

In verses the Holy Spirit also speaks. And also God the Father speaks, so right there shows 2 parts of the Trinity.

Again... Speaking what your told and not what is found in Biblical history...

John 1:18: "No one has ever seen God."

1 John 4:12: "No one has ever seen God."

1 Timothy 6:16: "Whom no human being has seen or can see."

No one has ever seen God. Yet, thousands of people saw Jesus.

Name - This word of course brings to mind an actual name, such as John Doe. But what does it mean to a Jew.

Name - 1. designates more than the external person; it tends to express his basic character, his personality. We might say it is an emanation of the person himself. 2. authority of, expressing attributes, in acknowledgment or confession of (NABD & VED).

This definition helps us in a verse like John 17:26:

"I (Jesus) made known to them your name and I will make it known."

Jesus obviously did not come to inform the Apostles that God’s name is YHWH. He came to explain God’s character, His attributes, His will, so that we could come to truly know God and follow His ways. This understanding of the word "name" along with the definition of the next word "baptize" will clear up another misunderstood verse.

Baptize - We always think of being baptized in water, either as infants or adults. Yes, this definition is used many times in the New Testament, but there is also another meaning that we must store in the back of our minds.

Baptize - 1. to unite together, to become closely bound to (TGEL & VED).

Now we will put together the definitions of "name" and "baptize" to get the true meaning of Matthew 28:19. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words has this commentary on this verse:

"The phrase in Matthew 28:19, ‘baptize them in the name’ would indicate that the baptized person was closely bound to, or became property of, the one in whose name he was baptized."

With these definitions we can safely paraphrase this verse as follows:

"Go out into the world and introduce or bring them into the knowledge of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Which is exactly what they did. The Apostles had to go into the world and explain to the Gentiles who God is, who the Son (The Messiah) is, and also about the power that they would receive from God’s Spirit. If we take it to mean that we are to water baptize people in the actual name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, then why is it that no one in the Bible ever uses this formula to water baptize believers?

As to 1 John 5:7.... All bible scholars have known for years this verse was added by men! It's almost embarrassing that you used it to support your view as it is well known to have been added by men to support the trinity. [[The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syrica, Armenian, thiopic, Arabic, Slavonic) The passgae is quoted by none of the greek Fathers, who had they know it, would have most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies]] Taken from "A textual Commentary On The Greek New Testament 2nd edition". Bruce Metzger

 

[Wrangler]

Here God is speaking about His Son
Matthew 17:5

Plain language disproves the trinity again! In the above sentence, God - in his unitarian nature - is the subject of the sentence. The object of the sentence is another being, His Son.

Not once does Scripture refer to Jesus as God the Son. Scripture explicitly refers to Jesus as being of God. This is how you know Jesus is not God.

By way of comparison, suppose we were talking about things 'of Wrangler' - my pants, my shoes, my wife. These are things of me but they are not me.

• This is my pants, in which I am well pleased.
• This is my shoes, in which I am well pleased.
• This is my son, in which I am well pleased.
• This is my wife, in which I am well pleased.

Hope this helps.

 

[Wrangler]

As to 1 John 5:7.... All bible scholars have known for years this verse was added by men! It's almost embarrassing that you used it to support your view

Not almost. ;)

They have to continue to make such desperate attempts to support their doctrine because the trinity is simply not an explicit teaching in the Bible.

 

[Scott Downey]

Not almost. ;)

They have to continue to make such desperate attempts to support their doctrine because the trinity is simply not an explicit teaching in the Bible.

Do you worship Jesus Christ?

 

[Scott Downey]

Again... Speaking what your told and not what is found in Biblical history...

John 1:18: "No one has ever seen God."

1 John 4:12: "No one has ever seen God."

1 Timothy 6:16: "Whom no human being has seen or can see."

No one has ever seen God. Yet, thousands of people saw Jesus.

Name - This word of course brings to mind an actual name, such as John Doe. But what does it mean to a Jew.

Name - 1. designates more than the external person; it tends to express his basic character, his personality. We might say it is an emanation of the person himself. 2. authority of, expressing attributes, in acknowledgment or confession of (NABD & VED).

This definition helps us in a verse like John 17:26:

"I (Jesus) made known to them your name and I will make it known."

Jesus obviously did not come to inform the Apostles that God’s name is YHWH. He came to explain God’s character, His attributes, His will, so that we could come to truly know God and follow His ways. This understanding of the word "name" along with the definition of the next word "baptize" will clear up another misunderstood verse.

Baptize - We always think of being baptized in water, either as infants or adults. Yes, this definition is used many times in the New Testament, but there is also another meaning that we must store in the back of our minds.

Baptize - 1. to unite together, to become closely bound to (TGEL & VED).

Now we will put together the definitions of "name" and "baptize" to get the true meaning of Matthew 28:19. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words has this commentary on this verse:

"The phrase in Matthew 28:19, ‘baptize them in the name’ would indicate that the baptized person was closely bound to, or became property of, the one in whose name he was baptized."

With these definitions we can safely paraphrase this verse as follows:

"Go out into the world and introduce or bring them into the knowledge of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

Which is exactly what they did. The Apostles had to go into the world and explain to the Gentiles who God is, who the Son (The Messiah) is, and also about the power that they would receive from God’s Spirit. If we take it to mean that we are to water baptize people in the actual name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, then why is it that no one in the Bible ever uses this formula to water baptize believers?

As to 1 John 5:7.... All bible scholars have known for years this verse was added by men! It's almost embarrassing that you used it to support your view as it is well known to have been added by men to support the trinity. [[The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syrica, Armenian, thiopic, Arabic, Slavonic) The passgae is quoted by none of the greek Fathers, who had they know it, would have most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies]] Taken from "A textual Commentary On The Greek New Testament 2nd edition". Bruce Metzger

Another verse proving Christ is GOD, which you do not acknowledge
Do you worship Jesus Christ?
Only Christians worship Jesus Christ.
I don't know what to call you as you do not, but you are not a Christian.

Titus 2
9 Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back, 10 not [c]pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.

Trained by Saving Grace
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

You realize the various creeds were written by the churches to prove they were in the faith, it was a teaching tool.

 

[Pierac]

So then you refuse to worship Christ, I don't consider you a Christian then.
You do not follow the biblical pattern set out by God in scripture regarding said worship, and the many examples scripture gives where Christ is worshipped.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Since you do not worship Jesus Christ, you do not acknowledge the scriptures are of God.

Again, you speak as a child! I worship the Father through His Christ, a Man name Jesus... This risen man named Jesus is my mediator between me and God! Jesus is my King in the coming Kingdom.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

AND
AND, conj.
And is a conjunction, connective or conjoining word. It signifies that a word or part of a sentence is to be added to what precedes. Thus, give me an apple and an orange; that is, give me an apple, add or give in addition to that, an orange. John and Peter and James rode to New York, that is, John rode to New York; add or further, Peter rode to New York; add James rode to New York.

Jesus warned you...
Joh 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

AND
AND, conj.
And is a conjunction, connective or conjoining word. It signifies that a word or part of a sentence is to be added to what precedes. Thus, give me an apple and an orange; that is, give me an apple, add or give in addition to that, an orange. John and Peter and James rode to New York, that is, John rode to New York; add or further, Peter rode to New York; add James rode to New York.

 

[Scott Downey]

1. Revelation 21:22
   The Glory of the New Jerusalem
   But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Revelation 21:23
   The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

Again, you speak as a child! I worship the Father through His Christ, a Man name Jesus... This risen man named Jesus is my mediator between me and God! Jesus is my King in the coming Kingdom.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

AND
AND, conj.
And is a conjunction, connective or conjoining word. It signifies that a word or part of a sentence is to be added to what precedes. Thus, give me an apple and an orange; that is, give me an apple, add or give in addition to that, an orange. John and Peter and James rode to New York, that is, John rode to New York; add or further, Peter rode to New York; add James rode to New York.

Jesus warned you...
Joh 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

AND
AND, conj.
And is a conjunction, connective or conjoining word. It signifies that a word or part of a sentence is to be added to what precedes. Thus, give me an apple and an orange; that is, give me an apple, add or give in addition to that, an orange. John and Peter and James rode to New York, that is, John rode to New York; add or further, Peter rode to New York; add James rode to New York.

Again you refuse to answer, of course that means you do not Worship Jesus Christ.
That is a good point for all to see who is heretic and a false teacher.
Christians worship Jesus Christ.

 

[Wrangler]

Do you worship Jesus Christ?

Absolutely not! I pray to God, who alone is the Father, in the name of Jesus. Why do you deny 1 Cor 11:3? NOTE: God, in his unitarian nature, is the head of Christ. Why would you worship someone besides God?

 

[Scott Downey]

Even the Holy ANGELS of the LORD GOD worship Christ
Hebrews 1:5-7
New King James Version
The Son Exalted Above Angels
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?

And again:

“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

7 And of the angels He says:

“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”

 

[Pierac]

Another verse proving Christ is GOD, which you do not acknowledge
Do you worship Jesus Christ?
Only Christians worship Jesus Christ.
I don't know what to call you as you do not, but you are not a Christian.

Titus 2
9 Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back, 10 not [c]pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things.

Trained by Saving Grace
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,

13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

You realize the various creeds were written by the churches to prove they were in the faith, it was a teaching tool.

My friend, Creeds were written by Men. Men whom seek power over other men... not to teach! Creeds were used to justify the murder of fellow Christians whom did not agreed. How many members of the body of Christ were burned at the stake for not believing in the Trinity? Any group and any Doctrine who supports the murder of a fellow human... is of Satan.