Understanding the Trinity.

[Scott Downey]

Contradicts Scripture. Jesus says at John 17:3 that only his Father is the true God.

Except that verse John 17:3 does not contradict with Christ also being God.

John 20:27-29
New King James Version
27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

God has placed this in scripture to prove that His Son was also God, and of course other verses also prove this, that Christ and God are of one substance, as in divine God.

The whole passage tells us Christ was one with the Father in Glory before the world was. \
And God we are told does not share His glory with anyone else.

John 17
New King James Version
Jesus Prays for Himself
17 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He [a]should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Isaiah 48:11
For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;
For how should My name be profaned?
And I will not give My glory to another.

 

[Scott Downey]

Some verses showing Christ has the same glory as of the Father
The Eternal Word, Christ is the WORD of GOD become flesh
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Luke 19:37-39
New King James Version
37 Then, as He was now drawing near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen, 38 saying:

“ ‘Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord!’
Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Matthew 19:28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 25:31 The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

Mark 8:38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Mark 10:37 They said to Him, “Grant us that we may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on Your left, in Your glory.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Here also are verses that also shows Christ is a part of the Godhood or Trinity, showing He is also a distinct person.

1 Corinthians 15
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Wrangler]

Except that verse John 17:3 does not contradict with Christ also being God.

100% Contradiction.

Duality "also" is the basis of trinitarianism. John 20:31 clearly states that nothing in his Gospel can be used to prove that Jesus is God as all of his Gospel is to prove something else; namely, that Jesus is the Son of God.

But there is that temptation to appeal to duality. Even though "ALL" of x is for purpose A, trinitarians rationalization is that x is ALSO for purpose B. Duality is void of logic. The enemies of trinitarianism:

1. Language Usage
2. Definition
3. Logic
4. Scripture

The trinity is not in Scripture. Jesus explicitly tells us that his Father is the only true God. This means nothing to your idol. It is laughable to assert that verse John 17:3 does not contradict with Christ also being God. It begs the question of what is the rejection criteria, i.e., what set of words qualify as contradicting the trinity?

Trinitarians never acknowledge a rejection criteria. If they did, the double standards would be obvious of what words it takes to explicitly teach the trinity.

 

[Wrangler]

Some verses showing Christ has the same glory as of the Father

There was already a brilliant analysis posted in this thread of agency. I suggest you read it.

If I use my sister's key, that does not make me my sister. This is the absurd rationalization trinitarians must adopt to work around the fact that the trinity is not in the Bible. There simply is no verse like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

If left to men in too many places designated by men as churches probably your motion would carry, and the vote might even go your way because God does at times allow people to get what they ask for... even if it is a rejection of Him and the best interests of the people themselves:

"And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them." I Sam 8:7

God has never encouraged or established democracies according to the written scriptures.

For men democracy might even be a good thing if the interests of the weak and poor minorities were really protected under law. We see the erosion of those rights in the USA today... which with unbelievers is, I guess to be expected... but with God's people?

God foresaw this kind of problem in the both the OT and the NT, but even in the churches which supposedly are His, it is not the Holy Spirit leading too much of the time. It is men leading the way themselves... seeking to suppress God Himself although they would deny it.

Does God need men's help to accomplish His purposes? Do we need to help God lead people to the Truth? We are the one who need His help. Winning this debate according to men will not put you or me on God's side!

People may say it is God's will because the majority says so... but...! What does God say? Let God speak for Himself! How many places is that happening? In what church groups? In what forums? In this forum?

Seems to me that there is a whole lot of Spirit quenching in the places people meet and call "churches" these days. Just follow the preacher/minister/priest and the local assembly rules and you will be...what? Never deceived? Hmmm?

"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1

If our leaders are not following Christ, what should we expect?

Well let us quench the Holy Spirit and keep silent as our blind leaders are directing us even when we really are being pressed by God to speak. What does it mean to quench the Spirit?

We do not cast lots these days as they did in the OT to find the will of God, but in too many places and at too times it would probably have a better result if we did. Without the Urim and Thummin, or the Holy Spirit directing us, are we in a better place than those children of Israel following their man-made idols instead of God?

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" Jerem. 10:23

I think you misunderstand me. I didn't cast a vote, that was a tongue in cheek comment. If you looked at #109, I just bowed out of any further conversation with Pierac. I chose a different direction at the fork in the road that we arrived at.

Seriously, If I was in a 2% minority in the Church/Body of Christ, concerning a major doctrine about the nature of the God I worshipped, the Church that was planned and grown by God, created to be complete in numbers as written in the Book of Life, I would question my view. I would doubt my view and this is why: If God is sovereign and His will perfect and His plan is right on course as we would expect, it is likely that the Trinity is true, because if it wasn't, He would not have led 98% of His precious Sheep to believe something about Him that is false. I would point out that Catholics and Protestants disagree with many doctrines, BUT NOT THE TRINITY.
GOD does factor in all our blunders and faults into His plan. But this sacred one, His nature, would not be allowed by Him to spread to such an extant, if it was false. That is not only a logical assessment but a spiritual one as well.

 

[amadeus]

I think you misunderstand me. I didn't cast a vote, that was a tongue in cheek comment. If you looked at #109, I just bowed out of any further conversation with Pierac. I chose a different direction at the fork in the road that we arrived at.

Oh, I understand now. My mistake! Sorry.

Seriously, If I was in a 2% minority in the Church/Body of Christ, concerning a major doctrine about the nature of the God I worshipped, the Church that was planned and grown by God, created to be complete in numbers as written in the Book of Life, I would question my view. I would doubt my view and this is why: If God is sovereign and His will perfect and His plan is right on course as we would expect, it is likely that the Trinity is true, because if it wasn't, He would not have led 98% of His precious Sheep to believe something about Him that is false. I would point out that Catholics and Protestants disagree with many doctrines, BUT NOT THE TRINITY.
GOD does factor in all our blunders and faults into His plan. But this sacred one, His nature, would not be allowed by Him to spread to such an extant, if it was false. That is not only a logical assessment but a spiritual one as well.

I do understand your viewpoint although I cannot agree with your conclusions.

What happened to the followers of Jesus when Jesus himself and the original apostles were gone is similar to what happened the followers of Moses and Joshua when those leaders were gone. Too many leaders leading people into ditches instead toward God.

It did not have to be that way, but that is the way people are and always have been. What man or men should we trust for guidance when it comes to our walk with God?

From the beginning men have been foolish. In spite of Jesus and what he brought to men, men have continued to be foolish.

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil." Prov. 3:5-7

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

...................................................
Why do you insist that it is I who is struggling with the meaning of Heb. 1:8. I have provided an impressive number of trinitarian scholars to give you a probable non-trinitarian rendering of Heb. 1:8/ Ps. 45:6. How is it my fault they disagree with you? Here's some more:

There is good evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6 - see my previous post) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”

If we look at some more trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering by some.

Oxford professor and famous trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, has been described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

Another acclaimed scholar of trinitarian Christendom has translated this verse similarly and made some interesting comments. Trinitarian Dr. William Barclay.

Dr. Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”

Famed trinitarian (Southern Baptist) New Testament Greek scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson acknowledges that either “Thy throne, O God” or “God is thy throne” may be proper renderings: “Either makes good sense.” - p. 339.

The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the famous trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ...’ in either case it is applicable to the mediatorial throne only.”

Are these scholars, any of the possibly thousands of experts who have actually translated any English version Bibles? I have about 60 versions here that all say the same thing. The Father says "to", or "about" or "in regards to" the His Son, "Your throne O God is forever and ever" or some that leave out the O". Examine all versions yourself.

Hebrews 1:8 - Bible Gateway

 

[GRACE ambassador]

an impressive number of trinitarian scholars to give you a probable non-trinitarian rendering of Heb. 1:8/ Ps. 45:6.

Precious friend, of course, ONE Triune GodHead Clearly Vanquishes the impressive number of scholars who probably Disagree With The Word Of
Truth, By a Factor Of 498 to 2:

"Complete" Case For JESUS Is Almighty God!!

 

[Aunty Jane]

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit planned this event before the foundation the world. God orchestrated the death and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus laid down His life willingly, the Pharisees were set up, Judas even Satan. It was prophesied. So you again do not have the correct perspective.
You are claiming that I ha e the Satan's spirit, who I suppose is inspiring me to honor and recognize the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Isn't that a similar charge what the Pharisee's implied about Jesus, that He was doing miracles by the power of Satan. And Jesus said rhey were blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Maybe I was unfair by that comment. You do see something, because you read His words, just as the Jews study and practice the Old Testament. But they do not discern the deep spiritual richness if the word as most of us who have been baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Yes you are passivists. Well I hope you appreciate that the freedoms in the USA ( that slowly being removed) were fought for in battles. As God sent the Israelites into the Promise land and told them to kill everyone and take it. Peace is good, but evil must be put down and so police, soldiers stand to thwart evil and if they have to, kill.
JW's clould never have their own country because you are not willing to fight and hence would be slaves to anyone who came along. I suppose if someone forced their way into your house to rape, pillage and plunder your family, your husband would just stand there defenseless and let it happen?


The Holy Spirit dwells in me and confirms with my spirit oir relationship. I am sealed by the Holy Spirit. JW's don't believe that are saved, they are uncertain. You think you habe to earn salvation and by good works, maybe afternthe Millenial Kingdom you'll find out. This is also said that you do not have the faith that all Christians should have. The faith that is a gift. Look it up, Hebrews 11:1 It is a sureness, a knowing of our salvation. It is a done deal.
You have been lied to and deprived of many aspects if the Christian life and truth.
You think Jesus is Michael - that is a disgrace and dishonor.
You think the Holy Spirit is a force - you are blind Him, who is God. And because if this you lack a relatiinship with Him, hence a lack of spiritual discernment.
You pass the bread and don't eat it, you pass the wine and don't drink it as if that is symbolic for communion with Christ. Oh, some of you do -only the ones who think they are going to heaven. He said, take and eat, this is My body ... take and drink, this is my blood ... Everytime you gather in my name.
You think heaven only has enough room for 144k JW's - what an fallacy. Sad!
You think because birthdays are not in the Bible that we are deprived of observing. Actually in Job 1, a birthday is celebrated. Tennis isn't in the Bible. Cars, phones and million other things aren't in there. We don't celebrate to glorify ourselves, we thank God for the person who was born on that day. It is a special day. God gave us life and we celebrate it any which way. Of course are carnally minded person does not celebrate with thanks to God and they can be self indulgent and sinful as well - this is not the kindnof celebration I am talking about. There are many Jewish feasts that actually were celebrations of historical events blessed by God. And in each celebration, thanks is given to God. JW's are deprived of celebrating anything accept a wedding or anniversary. There is nothing in the Bible that prohibits family gatherings, good food, dancing singing and joyful times for any reason as long as it has love and a thankful attitude towards God.



The proof is in the pudding they say. After over 100 years, the JW org only has just under 9 million believers. You have growth like a lawn that is suffering from a drought. You knock on doors for 200 million hours a year just in the US and where is the fruit of your labor??? People trickle in. And I would say most of your congregation was generated by family. You bring you kids that and and so on.
In 1900, there were 509 milliom Christians (Catholics, Protestants, Non-Denominaltional)..Nownthere are 2.65 billion believers -- that's growth. And why is thks so? The Holy Spirit blesses those chuech movements that are kn linebwith His will. Example: Chuck Smith started Calvary Chapel about 50 years ago and it has grown to over 2000 churches, many of which are mega-churches. Spirit-filled churches grow. Those with false doctrine do not!


Yes, I have seen the growth in the Body of Christ, though some churches remain stagnant.


I am excited, jumpimg for joy, my redemption draws near. It is sad for you to have to wait with uncertainty for that time.
I have many JW's in my family and I love them, but we don't see eye to eye with much of the Bible. Actually I could find more in common with a Catholic and be in agreement about the essentials than a JW. Oh well, we do live in peace, just refrain from talking about the things that are most important to us - sad.

I will just let that sit there as your personal testimony.....no need to respond. What would be the point. We will just wait and see....because Jesus is the judge, so he will tell us who is saved and who is not......no one else's judgment matters.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Jesus is the judge

Precious friend:
Better to speak The FULL Truth, According To The Scriptures!
What Saith The Scriptures?:

"The LORD JESUS CHRIST, Is God, The JUDGE!" ie:

From Bible study "Short" Case FOR The Triune GodHead!:

13) God Almighty Is The JUDGE Of All!

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest
them which do such things, and doest the
same, that thou shalt escape The Judgment Of God?…

...But after thy hardness and impenitent heart
treasurest up unto thyself Wrath against
The Day Of Wrath and Revelation Of
The Righteous JUDGMENT Of God! (Romans 2:3, 5)

...God The JUDGE of all!...God Will JUDGE!… (Hebrews 12:23, 13:4)
...Strong Is The LORD God Who JUDGES!... (Revelation 18:8)

JESUS CHRIST Is God, Because All The Verses In The Holy BIBLE,
That Talk About GOD Being The JUDGE, Must Refer To JESUS CHRIST,
Since HE Alone JUDGES! The Father JUDGES no man! (John 5:22)

The Father Has Committed All JUDGMENT
To His SON, The LORD JESUS CHRIST!! (John 5:22) Why?

"That All men should honour The SON, even as
they honour The Father. He that honoureth not The SON
honoureth not The Father Who Hath Sent HIM!" (John 5:23)

Notice:

Rev_20:11 "And I saw a Great White Throne, and HIM (JESUS) That Sat On
It, from Whose Face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."
Rev_20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;..."
---------------------------------------
Much More Scriptural Confirmation:
"Complete" Case For: JESUS Is Almighty God!!

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In The WORD Of Truth!
God's Simple Will!

 

[Wrangler]

my comment was Tongue in cheek

No, it wasn’t. Proof is you doubling down on it below.

Seriously, If I was in a 2% minority …. I would doubt my view

Well, since your view is a minority on Earth you should question it based on your own logic of appealing to majority.

 

[tigger 2]

I would be very worried if my worship were a majority one!

Matt. 7:13-14, NASB

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Matt.7:21-23

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

 

[Aunty Jane]

Precious friend:
Better to speak The FULL Truth, According To The Scriptures!
What Saith The Scriptures?:

What indeed do the scriptures tell us....? Do you really need to sound so sanctimonious...?

"The LORD JESUS CHRIST, Is God, The JUDGE!" ie:

From Bible study "Short" Case FOR The Triune GodHead!:

13) God Almighty Is The JUDGE Of All![/quote]
Well lets have a look then shall we?

1)(A) The Holy Spirit Is The God That "Ananias And Sapphira lied to!"
(Acts 5:3-4 KJB!).

Firstly you can put you beloved KJB away since I do not speak archaic English and neither does anyone I know.
The whole purpose of a translation is to have the Bible in the language you speak.....the KJB is a translation and in todays world should be shelved for the confusion it creates....it does not come directly from God and is a dinosaur for today's readers.

Secondly, the holy spirit that Ananias and Sapphira lied to, was the ability of Peter by means of God's spirit to detect the lie and expose it. If Peter did not have the holy spirit, he would never have been any the wiser.

2)(B) The Holy Spirit IS The God That Raised JESUS CHRIST From The Dead!,
(Romans 8:9-11 cp 1 Corinthians 6:14; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 1 Peter 3:18)
"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:11. NASB)
All I needed was one of your cited verses to show you that the holy spirit is NOT God but is possessed by God that can give even mortals the ability to do what is normally impossible.

What about 1 Corinthians 6:14?
"Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power."
Are you reading what I am reading? God raised up the Lord.....is that the same as saying "God raised up God" from the dead?
God's "power" is the holy spirit.

2 Corinthians 4:14...?
"knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will also raise us with Jesus, and will present us with you
Who raised Jesus up from the dead? God did.....by means of his spirit.

The holy spirit is not a person, but the power of God which can be directed to whomever or whatever he wishes.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest
them which do such things, and doest the
same, that thou shalt escape The Judgment Of God?…

...But after thy hardness and impenitent heart
treasurest up unto thyself Wrath against
The Day Of Wrath and Revelation Of
The Righteous JUDGMENT Of God! (Romans 2:3, 5)

What????

How about plain English?

"But do you suppose this, you foolish person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and yet does them as well, that you will escape the judgment of God?. . . .But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God".

The Judgment of God is the same as the judgment under law. The Law had representatives of God and could act on his behalf.
Men like Moses and the judges in Israel were God's representatives to his people. They spoke from God and were authorized by him to pass sentence on wrongdoers.

...God The JUDGE of all!...God Will JUDGE!… (Hebrews 12:23, 13:4)
...Strong Is The LORD God Who JUDGES!... (Revelation 18:8)

JESUS CHRIST Is God, Because All The Verses In The Holy BIBLE,
That Talk About GOD Being The JUDGE, Must Refer To JESUS CHRIST,
Since HE Alone JUDGES! The Father JUDGES no man! (John 5:22)

The Father Has Committed All JUDGMENT
To His SON, The LORD JESUS CHRIST!! (John 5:22) Why?

"That All men should honour The SON, even as
they honour The Father. He that honoureth not The SON
honoureth not The Father Who Hath Sent HIM!" (John 5:23)

"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."

So if God authorizes his son to do the judging, how is Jesus God? If he was God no one would have to authorize him to do anything...he would already have the authority.

What did Jesus say before his return to heaven....?
"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me."

Again he needs the authority of his God and Father......so he is not God but has authority from God to act on his behalf.
Jesus is a servant of his God. (Acts 4:27)

Much More Scriptural Confirmation:
"Complete" Case For: JESUS Is Almighty God!!

There is no scriptural confirmation...not one direct statement in the whole Bible that Jesus is God or even his equal.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In The WORD Of Truth!
God's Simple Will!

Thanks, but I have an abhorrence for blasphemy. To put two more 'gods' in the Father's place is a clear breach of the First Commandment. The Jews had no trinity, therefore Jesus did not teach it. If Jesus did not teach it then neither did the apostles.

You have to force it into scripture by inference because there is not a single clear and direct statement from either God or his Christ that they are equal gods in a made-up 'godhead'...a word that does not appear in the Bible at all.

You have no clear scriptural basis for your beliefs.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I will just let that sit there as your personal testimony.....no need to respond. What would be the point. We will just wait and see....because Jesus is the judge, so he will tell us who is saved and who is not......no one else's judgment matters.

I never said you or anyone else was saved or not. I just said it was sad that you weren't and couldn't be sure of your salvation. Jesus will judge those who do not put their faith in Him. Don't you? You believe He died for your sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures. You follow Him and practice obedience. And He said, if you believe in Me you will not perish, but have eternal life. That's it, belief. But people want to add to that works or their own, as if they can merit salvation. That would being saying Christ's sacrifice was insufficient. My parents were rebellious and resistant to God up until just before their deaths. Then God got their attention. The first will be last and the last first. I think we will be surprised at the turnout when we arrive on the other side - it will certainly be more than 144k.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I never said you or anyone else was saved or not. I just said it was sad that you weren't and couldn't be sure of your salvation. Jesus will judge those who do not put their faith in Him. Don't you? You believe He died for your sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures.

So why is it sad that we non-trinitarians don't believe what you believe....? If we are saved anyway because we are "believers"....what are you saying?

How are we not sure of our salvation? We are as sure as Paul was....
Paul was not presumptuous....
"Brothers and sisters, I do not regard myself as having taken hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." (Philippians 3:13-14)

Since I do not have the "heavenly calling", (Hebrews 3:1) I have a different expectation to my anointed brothers of the 144,000. I will happily be a subject of theirs on earth.
Not all Christians are going to heaven. That was never in the plan.

You follow Him and practice obedience. And He said, if you believe in Me you will not perish, but have eternal life. That's it, belief. But people want to add to that works or their own, as if they can merit salvation.

So that's it...just belief? That's all we need....?
"You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." (James 2:19)
What does it mean to "believe" then? In the next verse he says...."But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless?".....so we need both. We need faith and we need works motivated by faith....works are proof of our faith.

As James said...
"What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 In the same way, faith also, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works. . . . You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. . . . For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”

I think we will be surprised at the turnout when we arrive on the other side - it will certainly be more than 144k.

What is this "other side" of which you speak? There is no "other side". There is just life or death....there is no conscious existence after death. The resurrection which Jesus preached and performed was a restoration of life, not a continuation of it in the spirit realm for the vast majority of humankind. Those of Christ's "elect" will join him in heaven because they have been chosen for a specific role in God's Kingdom....."kings and priests" to guide mankind back into reconciliation with God.....(Revelation 20:6) These are resurrected "first" but not until Christ's return, according to Paul.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17...NASB
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

There is order in the resurrection, but most people have no idea that this is how it takes place. No one was to go to heaven until Christ's return. Which means that all were "sleeping" in their graves all this time.....Its right there in the scriptures. There is no "other side".

So, we should let the scriptures speak.....they tell the story, not us.

 

[Scott Downey]

100% Contradiction.

Duality "also" is the basis of trinitarianism. John 20:31 clearly states that nothing in his Gospel can be used to prove that Jesus is God as all of his Gospel is to prove something else; namely, that Jesus is the Son of God.

But there is that temptation to appeal to duality. Even though "ALL" of x is for purpose A, trinitarians rationalization is that x is ALSO for purpose B. Duality is void of logic. The enemies of trinitarianism:

1. Language Usage
2. Definition
3. Logic
4. Scripture

The trinity is not in Scripture. Jesus explicitly tells us that his Father is the only true God. This means nothing to your idol. It is laughable to assert that verse John 17:3 does not contradict with Christ also being God. It begs the question of what is the rejection criteria, i.e., what set of words qualify as contradicting the trinity?

Trinitarians never acknowledge a rejection criteria. If they did, the double standards would be obvious of what words it takes to explicitly teach the trinity.

'This means nothing to your idol.' Interesting choice of words you use.

"you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
John 8
23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”

And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning.

 

[Scott Downey]

Why are these non trinitarian Christ denying posts not struck down and banned from this subforum??

 

[Wrangler]

'This means nothing to your idol.' Interesting choice of words you use.

"you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
John 8
23

LOL See how trinitarians are forced to rely on vague verses to support your doctrine?

I believe completely Jesus is the ‘He’ who he explicitly said he was at Mark 14:61-62, ‘I am’ to the question of being not God incarnate but God’s Anointed, the Liberating King,the Son of the Blessed One. VOICE

Of course, trinitarians must rely on the ‘and also’ of duality, denying exclusivity in language usage.

It’s not that you deny Jesus is God’s Anointed. It’s that you assert against all reason he is ALSO the Blessed One who Anointed him. Your doctrine requires you to claim Jesus Anointed himself contrary to Scripture.

 

[Wrangler]

Why are these non trinitarian Christ denying posts not struck down and banned from this subforum??

Because we see the hierarchical relationship in 1 Cor 11:3 - with no mention of the HS, etc.