Tongues

[Curtis]

Look at Mark 16:16-18. These tongues are TO God. There is no interpretation noted. That is our prayer language. These gifts are for us individually. But there are higher gifts for ministry and the profit of all listed in 1 Corinthians 12. The tongues in that list must be accompanied with interpretation, because they are messages from God. 1 Corinthians 14 is a teaching on these two types of tongues - individual prayer language and the other whose messages are from God and are listed in 1 Corinthians 14:6. Therefore I will pray in my individual prayer language, or I will pray with interpretation for the profit of all.

14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding.

"Understanding" is "interpretation."

Exactly. I was going to cite that same verse, but ya beat me to it.

Paul prayed in the spirit with no understanding of what he was saying, which is a personal prayer language.

He also said he wanted everyone to speak in tongues, and thanked God he spoke in tongues more than anyone, then told the church at Corinth to stop forbidding tongues, something else cessationists are always ignorant of.

 

[Curtis]

The Bible does not authorize a special "prayer language". That is a made-up idea. If it were true, then Jesus would have told His apostles that they were to pray as directed in Matthew 6 using a prayer language.

Pentecost with the gift of tongues occurred after Jesus rose and ascended to heaven - there were no gifts of tongues until Acts 1.

Thus Jesus would not tell the apostles to use a gift not given yet, during His 3 tears of ministry before the cross.

 

[Curtis]

Sorry, I don't buy that. I choose to stay with what was actually spoken on Pentecost, as written...

Acts 2:5-8
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
KJV

God knows how we speak and hear. And in the Greek of that Acts 2 chapter, it even refers to the idea of dialects of their home languages is what they heard.

And FYI, in the 1 Corinthians 14 chapter, the KJV word "unknown" is NOT in the Greek manuscripts. Thus there is no such thing as a 'unknown' tongue.

When one actually studies the topic, it’s found that there is more than just one type of tongue.


Paul wrote that there are DIVERSITIES of tongues, meaning more than just one kind:.


1Co 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.


There’s a tongue found in Acts 1 that’s understood by everyone in their own language, needing no interpreting.


There’s an unknown tongue that’s never understood by any man, because it’s the Holy Spirit speaking mysteries unto God.


1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknowntongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.


There’s an unknown tongue spoken to the congregation in church, that is a message from God that needs interpreted by someone, that Paul calls prophecy.


1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.


There’s an unknown tongue that isn’t interpreted, that is the Holy Spirit praying for the person speaking in tongues, for things they know not how to pray for.


Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

 

[Curtis]

Actually there any number of spiritual gifts, and the "list of 9" is a mixture of Specifics (like Interpretation of Tongues) and Categories (Miracles).



Which assumes that the "list" implies any "order of importance".



1 Cor 14 disagrees, giving several uses for the Gift of Tongues (which is actually a subset of the gift of Prophesy).



There's no evidence that Peter addressed the crowd in "Tongues", but spoke in the Common tongue to the people who EARLIER had heard the disciples speaking in languages they shouldn't have known. Peter didn't manifest the "Gift of tongues" in addressing the crowd, although many of the disciples did.



1 Cor 14 disagrees.



Nope!!! The bible is specific, CAN'T BE UTTERED!!! So nothing is being spoken at all obviously.



More word games. since when is "Speaking to God" not "prayer" which makes those tongues a "Prayer language" whether YOU like it or not.



Not necessarily!!!! If somebody is deathly sick, which would make "the gifts of healings" the BEST Gift, And "Word of Knowledge" would be worthless.

"Tongues" would be the BEST Gift if you need to communicate with somebody who's language you don't speak (it still happens).

"Interpretation of Tongues would be the BEST Gift, when a message in tongues is given in a meeting, so that the Congregation is edified.

The BEST GIFT is ALWAYS the one that ministers to the situation you're faced with.

So what did Paul do with the least of the spiritual gifts?

He thanked God he spoke in tongues more than anyone, and told the Corinthians he wanted them all to speak in tongues.

Obviously being the so called least spiritual gift didn’t mean not using and ignoring it, as cessationists want people to think, by making the point it’s the last gift on the list.

 

[Christ4Me]

There is more than just one type of tongue.

Paul wrote that there are DIVERSITIES of tongues, meaning more than just one kind:.

1Co 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

So what you had boldened is about the variety of foreign languages because what follows is the interpretation of those tongues.

There’s a tongue found in Acts 1 that’s understood by everyone in their own language, needing no interpreting.

That is the real God's gift of tongues, however when used in the assembly, it will come with interpretation because the manifest of the gifts are to profit the body of Christ.

There’s an unknown tongue that’s never understood by any man, because it’s the Holy Spirit speaking mysteries unto God.

Are there mysteries to God? No. Read that again.

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknowntongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him;howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

It is man that does not understand what he is saying, so what he is speaking is a mystery to those around him. But read that in context;

1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

That is Paul explaining why prophesy is better than all the gifts, especially tongues because tongues is not a stand alone gift to use in the assembly.

There’s an unknown tongue spoken to the congregation in church, that is a message from God that needs interpreted by someone, that Paul calls prophecy.

Prophesy which is edification, is a separate function in the church from tow or 3 speak in tongues which another is to be interpreted. When it comes to prophesying, it is the same as two or three prophesy and one judges it.

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknowntongue, let it beby two, or at the most bythree, and thatby course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

One can get the order & decency in the church because when two or three speak in tongues or prophesy, they do so one by one.

Why did Paul say if there is no interpreter, to make that person be silent in church? This is Paul explaining that is a foreign visitor speaking out of turn during this function where 2 or 3 speak in tongues for that other to interpret. That is why there is no interpretation to that person because he is not speaking in God's gift of tongues. He is speaking in the language he understands as that is what Paul mean that he is speaking to himself and to God as God understands him too, not that the man is a nut speaking to himself and to God in verse 28

That is why in verse 2 when he speaks unto God, God understands what he is saying because that tongue is manifested by the Holy Spirit; not that the tongue speaker is speaking to God but unto men whereby a the moment he speaks in mysteries for why prophesy is better than tongues among all spiritual gifts because tongues is not a stand alone gift to use in the assembly for why it will come with interpretation.

There’s an unknown tongue that isn’t interpreted, that is the Holy Spirit praying for the person speaking in tongues, for things they know not how to pray for.

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

That means no sound at all. This is a testimony about the Holy Spirit for all believers that do not know what to pray for so that is why it is not involving a supernatural tongue at all. Jesus is he he in verse 27 that searches our hearts & knows the mind of the Spirit for how the silent intercessions of the Spirit is known to the Father because Jesus gives the silent intercessions of the Spirit to the Father, being our only Mediator between God and men which is in according to the will of God for Him to do ( 1 Timothy 2:5 & Hebrews 7:25 )

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

BTW, Paul ordered the Corinthian church not to forbid speaking in tongues: If the only kind of tongue was the type found in Acts 1 (that is understood by everyone), this means that church had forbidden speaking in known languages - which would have resulted in very quiet church services!

Paul instructed that if there is no interpreter, he is to be silent because he is not really speaking in God's gift of tongues but in his own language.

As for any notion for private use, believers should have rea 1 Corinthians 12th chapter that proves none of the gifts are for private use.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.

The scripture above testifies that there is only one baptism with the Holy spirit as that had occurred at our salvation so there is no other baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues because that is an apostate calling for why that tongue is gibberish nonsense that cannot come with interpretation. So believers wanted to believe it is of God without testing the spirits and so they just go with the flow of that supernatural tongue, not knowing what benefit that is being manifested by that tongue; hence unwittingly making God he author of confusion, but He is not, therefore that tongue for private use gained by that extra phenomenon is why it is not of Him at all.

Below is proof that the real God's gift of tongues would never be for private use because that would be the same as needing no interpreter or any other body of Christ.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Better to shun that tongue for private use, pray normally so you know what you had prayed for to give the Father genuine thanks in Jesus's name.

 

[Christ4Me]

yes, and the old understanding of praying by the spirit was the same as understanding the scriptures just by having the Holy Spirit and by having the Holy Spirit, we would know what to pray for.

A much different belief than we are taught in most churches today.

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

Since the Father knows before we ask Him, then that testimony below is for all believers for why it does not involve any supernatural praying in tongues.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

 

[Enoch111]

Thus Jesus would not tell the apostles to use a gift not given yet, during His 3 tears of ministry before the cross.

Where's the biblical evidence that the apostles used "prayer language" after Pentecost?

 

[DuckieLady]

but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Interesting! Never understood this verse until now. Or maybe it was written differently in a different version.

Thanks!

 

[Christ4Me]

Interesting! Never understood this verse until now. Or maybe it was written differently in a different version.

Thanks!

The KJV and a few modern versions has it that way but yeah, other modern Bibles have it written differently with an entirely different message as if the holy Spirit can utter sounds from Himself when making intercessions for us, but whatever Bible version you use, check with John 16:13 which testifies He cannot speak from Himself or on His own authority, but speak what He hears and so Christ speaking through the Holy Spirit unto the people in a variety of languages is limiting how the Spirit cannot use God's gift of tongues for His own purposes like praying His intercessions for us out loud to God.

 

[DuckieLady]

Hey brother.

I do think Paul emphasized seeking the greater gifts, but I don't think jumping pews and playing with snakes were among them, Lol.

Today I learned you've never been to a heavy southern Apostolic Pentecostal church. Some do.

Interesting one I read posted on here yesterday. Look at verse 9, in context though- it's about learning from Israel.

1 Corinthians 10

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

From the WCF concerning apostolic gifts;
“The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.”

WCF chpt 1 part 6.

 

[Davy]

God gave each devout Jew the supernatural ability to HEAR their own language.

No, He simply allowed the 'original' tongue that all... peoples once spoke prior to the tower of Babel event, to go forth.

Gen 11:1
11 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
KJV

That is why everyone present understood it. The idea of it being 'cloven' means when it went out, it was divided... into the various languages of the multitude present. It had nothing to do with gibberish, as everyone understood in their own language. And that is what is meant that God knows how we speak and hear.

Read it again and you can see that that is what it plainly says. Tongues are not understood by any man. 1 Corinthians 14:2. That also is plainly stated, even without adding "unknown". Carnal human reasoning says otherwise.

Nah, that's just an idea you've been taught by preachers who claim speaking gibberish is the real cloven tongue of Pentecost. And I've even heard their blasphemy of saying that those who don't speak 'their' idea of the cloven tongue are not saved in Christ.

 

[Davy]

Name it then whatever you like, but I have been talking to God in a language He gave to me 46 years ago. For many years now it has been a daily communication link between me and Him. You can disbelieve it, but for me you cannot disprove it. You use the scripture to support your position as if God must agree with it. I strive to surrender to God to be led to His position, whatever that is.

"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" Rom 8:31

Oh, I believe in the cloven tongue that manifested on Pentecost day per Acts 2. And what was it that manifested per God's Word? Tell us if you know.

 

[Lambano]

My friend tells the story of a little Baptist church in western North Carolina she attended in which the Holy Spirit decided something was going to happen that Sunday that wasn't in the bulletin. People started speaking in tongues (including my friend, for the first and only time in her life), and somebody else was given the power of interpretation. The pastor had the good sense to shut up and just let what happened happen. Strangest (and most memorable) worship experience she ever had. It was just a one-off event, though. Never happened again.

 

[Curtis]

yes, and the old understanding of praying by the spirit was the same as understanding the scriptures just by having the Holy Spirit and by having the Holy Spirit, we would know what to pray for.

A much different belief than we are taught in most churches today.

Praying in the spirit is praying in an unknown language:

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

 

[DuckieLady]

Praying in the spirit is praying in an unknown language:

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

out of context- I don't feel it is worth repeating but I think @Christ4Me already spelled it out well.

if you all listened to sermons from the early church, I have yet to hear a single sermon or read a single written work regarding any "strange" unknown tongue being used in prayer. Only in modern churches is it a "every day" thing.

My friend tells the story of a little Baptist church in western North Carolina she attended in which the Holy Spirit decided something was going to happen that Sunday that wasn't in the bulletin. People started speaking in tongues (including my friend, for the first and only time in her life), and somebody else was given the power of interpretation. The pastor had the good sense to shut up and just let what happened happen. Strangest (and most memorable) worship experience she ever had. It was just a one-off event, though. Never happened again.

This to me seems like a better example of what we should be seeing.

 

[Davy]

The kjv translators CORRECTLY added the word unknown to the verse, because a language that IS NEVER UNDERSTOOD BY ANYONE but is the spirit speaking MYSTERIES to God, is by definition AN UNKNOWN TONGUE:

Nah, the KJV translators ADDED the word "unknown" in 1 Corinthians 14 because of TRADITIONS OF MEN, just like they added the word "Easter" in Acts 12:4 per traditions of men, which is not in the Greek texts either (the actual Greek Textus Receptus has the word pascha, which means 'passover'). I understand their adding certain articles and conjunctions which are necessary for translation to the English language, but adding those words is not about that need.

The word Easter is actually from the Saxon goddess Eastre, and same as the Syrian Venus Astarte, called Ashtoreth in the Old Testament. Pagan converts to Christ kept the day instead of discarding it, thus it became a tradition applied to the day of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection. And what do bunny rabbits and eggs have to do with Christ's death and resurrection? Absolutely nothing! But those symbols come from that old pagan ritual they celebrated as a 'sexual ritual'. Thus the rabbit and egg represent fertility in that old pagan Eastre tradition.

 

[DuckieLady]

Nah, the KJV translators ADDED the word "unknown" in 1 Corinthians 14 because of TRADITIONS OF MEN, just like they added the word "Easter" in Acts 12:4 per traditions of men, which is not in the Greek texts either (the actual Greek Textus Receptus has the word pascha, which means 'passover'). I understand their adding certain articles and conjunctions which are necessary for translation to the English language, but adding those words is not about that need.

The word Easter is actually from the Saxon goddess Eastre, and same as the Syrian Venus Astarte, called Ashtoreth in the Old Testament. Pagan converts to Christ kept the day instead of discarding it, thus it became a tradition applied to the day of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection. And what do bunny rabbits and eggs have to do with Christ's death and resurrection? Absolutely nothing! But those symbols come from that old pagan ritual they celebrated as a 'sexual ritual'. Thus the rabbit and egg represent fertility in that old pagan Eastre tradition.

This is why I want to do a study on actual Biblical celebrations.

(I know we can't do it on this thread but can we plleeeeaase do this at some point.)

 

[Davy]

When one actually studies the topic, it’s found that there is more than just one type of tongue.


Paul wrote that there are DIVERSITIES of tongues, meaning more than just one kind:.


1Co 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

You have simply been deceived. Paul's idea of "diversities of tongues" means various 'known' languages of the world. With some, The Holy Spirit gives the gift of being able to speak many languages. I even know someone who has a son that he figured wouldn't amount to much, because he couldn't get him interested in anything. Then the son joined the U.S. Army, and when the Army tested his aptitudes, they found out he had a talent for languages. He is fluent in English, Chinese, Korean, and Japanese. (And I consider those Asian languages very difficult).

 

[Curtis]

You have simply been deceived. Paul's idea of "diversities of tongues" means various 'known' languages of the world. With some, The Holy Spirit gives the gift of being able to speak many languages. I even know someone who has a son that he figured wouldn't amount to much, because he couldn't get him interested in anything. Then the son joined the U.S. Army, and when the Army tested his aptitudes, they found out he had a talent for languages. He is fluent in English, Chinese, Korean, and Japanese. (And I consider those Asian languages very difficult).

If all tongues were known languages understood by all, there’d be no reason to need them interpreted in church, and when the Corinthian church forbade speaking in tongues, that means they forbade speaking in known languages that are understood - which would mean a VERY quiet church service.

If all tongues were understood, then Paul wouldn’t have said when he prays in tongues, his spirit prays but he has no understanding of what’s being said.