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DuckieLady

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And keep in mind this babbling was not the same as speaking in tongues. You have footnote e at the end of verse 1 Cor 14:22.

It takes you to Isaiah 28:11,12.

Right on verse 23:


Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.

How are tongues a sign for unbelievers?

Because God sent them speaking to them in their own languages- actual languages, why? To lead them to repentance.

So!

There you go, then.
 
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1stCenturyLady

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There is no "office in the Church" that is related to "tongues".

No verse or Bible has any scripture in it, that even suggest this that you just made up.

So, what you just wrote is your imagination, combined with a commentary that lied to you.


I don't read commentaries for answers. I understand what Scripture is saying by the Spirit. And the gift of tongues in 1 Cor. 12 IS an office. That is why those who have it must look to see if the person with the office of interpreter is there; otherwise, they must keep silent. But the sign of tongues is given to all who believe and are baptized.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
 

Hidden In Him

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If Paul had given his body to be burned and he was dead he wouldn't have been writing and I'm not done so hold on.


Let me give you the rest of what my answer would be, and that is this:

I don't see any of the things he mentioned as being impossible; in fact, several of them were clearly being practiced in NT times, which means he would be mixing hyperbole with reality back and forth, which makes for a very confusing argument to follow.

But let me get the passage again:

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

Ok,

1. Speaking with the tongues of angels: In question, hence the discussion, but one I think is fully possible, based on the context.
2. Having the gift of prophecy: This one can hardly be disputed was real, and being practiced by the New Testament church.
3. Understand all mysteries: This is another one that is hard to dispute wasn't going on in NT times. Paul made mention of understanding the mysteries of God numerous times, and nearly always in the affirmative. Here would be a couple links:
What are Paul’s Mysteries of God?
Seven Mysteries Revealed to Paul
4. Have all faith to move mountains: Now this one is where you would seem to maybe have an argument, cuz this is talking about serious faith here. But was he talking about something that was impossible? He commanded Peter to walk on water, and during roughly the same time period taught them, "If you have faith, you shall say unto this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' and it will obey you."
5. Give all my goods to feed the poor: Another one that doesn't seem to be hyperbole. Acts says many were selling their property and distributing to the poor so that the early church had all things common, and Jesus also told the rich man, "Go, sell what you have and give it to the poor, and come follow me," and then mentioned how hard it was for the rich to enter the kingdom of God to His disciples, meaning He was serious.
6 Give my body to be burned: All the apostles including Paul did indeed eventually die a martyr's death, except John. I think he is referring here to giving one's life in service to God until one eventually has to pay the ultimate price for it.

Gonna step out for a bit. I'll check back later.

God bless,
- H
 

Hidden In Him

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Let me give you the rest of what my answer would be, and that is this:

I don't see any of the things he mentioned as being impossible; in fact, several of them were clearly being practiced in NT times, which means he would be mixing hyperbole with reality back and forth, which makes for a very confusing argument to follow.

But let me get the passage again:

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

Ok,

1. Speaking with the tongues of angels: In question, hence the discussion, but one I think is fully possible, based on the context.
2. Having the gift of prophecy: This one can hardly be disputed was real, and being practiced by the New Testament church.
3. Understand all mysteries: This is another one that is hard to dispute wasn't going on in NT times. Paul made mention of understanding the mysteries of God numerous times, and nearly always in the affirmative. Here would be a couple links:
What are Paul’s Mysteries of God?
Seven Mysteries Revealed to Paul
4. Have all faith to move mountains: Now this one is where you would seem to maybe have an argument, cuz this is talking about serious faith here. But was he talking about something that was impossible? He commanded Peter to walk on water, and during roughly the same time period taught them, "If you have faith, you shall say unto this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' and it will obey you."
5. Give all my goods to feed the poor: Another one that doesn't seem to be hyperbole. Acts says many were selling their property and distributing to the poor so that the early church had all things common, and Jesus also told the rich man, "Go, sell what you have and give it to the poor, and come follow me," and then mentioned how hard it was for the rich to enter the kingdom of God to His disciples, meaning He was serious.
6 Give my body to be burned: All the apostles including Paul did indeed eventually die a martyr's death, except John. I think he is referring here to giving one's life in service to God until one eventually has to pay the ultimate price for it.

Gonna step out for a bit. I'll check back later.

God bless,
- H

Ugh. Cleaned up now. (That one was a typo battlefield. My apologies :rolleyes: ).
 
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DuckieLady

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Let me give you the rest of what my answer would be, and that is this:

I don't see any of the things he mentioned as being impossible; in fact, several of them were clearly being practiced in NT times, which means he would be mixing hyperbole with reality back and forth, which makes for a very confusing argument to follow.

But let me get the passage again:

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

Ok,

1. Speaking with the tongues of angels: In question, hence the discussion, but one I think is fully possible, based on the context.
2. Having the gift of prophecy: This one can hardly be disputed was real, and being practiced by the New Testament church.
3. Understand all mysteries: This is another one that is hard to dispute wasn't going on in NT times. Paul made mention of understanding the mysteries of God numerous times, and nearly always in the affirmative. Here would be a couple links:
What are Paul’s Mysteries of God?
Seven Mysteries Revealed to Paul
4. Have all faith to move mountains: Now this one is where you would seem to maybe have an argument, cuz this is talking about serious faith here. But was he talking about something that was impossible? He commanded Peter to walk on water, and during roughly the same time period taught them, "If you have faith, you shall say unto this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' and it will obey you."
5. Give all my goods to feed the poor: Another one that doesn't seem to be hyperbole. Acts says many were selling their property and distributing to the poor so that the early church had all things common, and Jesus also told the rich man, "Go, sell what you have and give it to the poor, and come follow me," and then mentioned how hard it was for the rich to enter the kingdom of God to His disciples, meaning He was serious.
6 Give my body to be burned: All the apostles including Paul did indeed eventually die a martyr's death, except John. I think he is referring here to giving one's life in service to God until one eventually has to pay the ultimate price for it.

Gonna step out for a bit. I'll check back later.

God bless,
- H
The prophecy part isn't an exaggeration, it is part of the writing but Paul would use what they know as an example.

Paul could not fathom all mysteries and knowledge. God said so, throughout the entire book of Job.

If anyone had moved mountains, the Bible likely would have told us. If anyone does do that, I want to be there.

It isn't meant to be taken literally. It is an exaggeration rebuking their boastfulness, and letting them know, you could exceed all of these things to this intensely impossible degree and it STILL would be nothing without love.

Mark 12:29-31
 
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Hidden In Him

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Paul could not fathom all mysteries and knowledge.

Slight hyperbole, possibly, but the man was constantly revealing and teaching the mysteries of God (as those links provide) in his letters, which means he wasn't really talking in terms of complete exaggeration.
If anyone had moved mountains, the Bible likely would have told us. If anyone does do that, I want to be there.

Yes, well I'm not saying anyone DID during New Testament times, but the question was, would such a thing be possible in Christ or impossible. Moses parted the Red Sea, so there is a certain amount of precedent in scripture for doing similarly supernatural things by the power of God.
It isn't meant to be taken literally. It is an exaggeration rebuking their boastfulness, and letting them know, you could exceed all of these things to this intensely impossible degree and it STILL would be nothing without love.

Ok, now wait... The Corinthians did indeed have a problem with pride, but in this particular part of the letter that's not what Paul was driving at; in fact, quite the opposite. He was criticizing them for focusing on speaking in tongues, yet with no interpreters, at the expense of operating in the greater gifts, which was causing him to liken them to spiritual children in the gifts. He wasn't dealing with their boastfulness in that part of the letter so much as with their spiritual childishness.
It's like that part in Thumbelina, where Cornelius sings to her that they'll "dance on Saturn's rings" but it is unrealistic so they won't.

Never watched Thumbelina. Is it any good? :)
 

DuckieLady

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He was criticizing them for focusing on speaking in tongues, yet with no interpreters, at the expense of operating in the greater gifts, which was causing him to liken them to spiritual children in the gifts. He wasn't dealing with their boastfulness in that part of the letter so much as with their spiritual childishness.
You're right about this, but that direction is taken in in 1 Cor 14, but 1 Cor 13 isn't about order in the church - the whole chapter is about taking them in the direction of love first, starting with a gentle rebuke.

Then, look at vs 4-7. I won't clog the thread, I'll just let you look yourself.

There you can see what he is correcting, starting with boasting, and how these actions contrast with the works of love.

9-12 expands on to 1-3

13 is the conclusion, the greatest of these is love

Never watched Thumbelina. Is it any good? :)
Ummmmm YEAH. lol
 
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Hidden In Him

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You're right about this, but that direction is taken in in 1 Cor 14, but 1 Cor 13 isn't about order in the church - the whole chapter is about taking them in the direction of love first, starting with a gentle rebuke.

Then, look at vs 4-7. I won't clog the thread, I'll just let you look yourself.

There you can see what he is correcting, starting with boasting, and how these actions contrast with the works of love.

9-12 expands on to 1-3

13 is the conclusion, love is the greatest of these


So you still don't think there's a tongue of angels?

The other interesting thing is that he said, "If I speak with the tongues of men and angels," and then mentioned they would just be a clanging symbol without love, i.e. meaning that without interpretation they would just be making noise. This again suggests real noise, such as the unintelligible tongues of men are to us. Wouldn't the tongue of angels also have to be interpreted in this context as potentially a real noise? :)
 

Lambano

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The other interesting thing is that he said, "If I speak with the tongues of men and angels," and then mentioned they would just be a clanging symbol without love, i.e. meaning that without interpretation they would just be making noise.
No, I think it means what it says. Even if you can do supernatural stuff, it means nada if you don't have love.

(I'm kinda big on this "love one another, even as I have loved you" stuff. It's what I do.)
 

DuckieLady

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So you still don't think there's a tongue of angels?

The other interesting thing is that he said, "If I speak with the tongues of men and angels," and then mentioned they would just be a clanging symbol without love, i.e. meaning that without interpretation they would just be making noise. This again suggests real noise, such as the unintelligible tongues of men are to us. Wouldn't the tongue of angels also have to be interpreted in this context as potentially a real noise? :)
put it this way-

If you consider what the purpose of tongues was for (#41) and that there is NO record in the Bible of anyone praying in ANY language other than a KNOWN language in the Bible, then absolutely not.

We are just "speaking mysteries into the air". (That was another rebuke in 14. Because if you look in 14, you'll see the babbling was addressed. There are a few different things going on there.)
 

Hidden In Him

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put it this way-

If you consider what the purpose of tongues was for (#41) and that there is NO record in the Bible of anyone praying in ANY language other than a KNOWN language in the Bible, then absolutely not.

We are just "speaking mysteries into the air". (That was another rebuke in 14. Because if you look in 14, you'll see the babbling was addressed. There are a few different things going on there.)


Ah, but see, he makes reference to speaking with the tongue of angels in company with operating in the gift of prophecy, and there are numerous references to the gift of prophecy in the NT; several in 1st Corinthians alone. But if you go to look for actual examples of that gift in operation in the New Testament, you get Agabus prophesying over Paul and that's about it. I think the reason was because they didn't spend a ton of time recording actual instances of the gifts in use, since we have zero recorded instances of tongues and interpretation, at least as far as exactly what words were spoken and exactly what the interpretation was. So why should we preclude the existence of a tongue of angels if Paul also made reference to it yet we don't have an actual example of its use in scripture?
 

DuckieLady

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So why should we preclude the existence of a tongue of angels if Paul also made reference to it yet we don't have an actual example of its use in scripture?
Everything should line up clearly in scripture, and you can see the gift of tongues again and how it was used in the book of Acts.
 

1stCenturyLady

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i already done all that. Baptism too.
No one stops sinning in this life.

You're kidding yourself.

1 John 3:Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

You won't be able to stop sinning on your own with your old nature intact. First that old nature must be nailed to the cross. Read Romans 6:6-7. If you want to know how to become actually born again and filled with the powerful Spirit of Christ, which is not given automatically after acknowledging who Jesus is, then ask me to share my testimony through our mail.
 

Lifelong_sinner

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You're kidding yourself.

1 John 3:Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

You won't be able to stop sinning on your own with your old nature. First that old nature must be nailed to the cross. Read Romans 6:6-7. If you want to know how to become actually born again and filled with the powerful Spirit of Christ, which is not given automatically after acknowledging who Jesus is, then ask me to share my testimony through our mail.

thats ok. I find testimonies dont mean much due to the high amount of false converts today. Also, you sin. Everyday. And you cant stop it. Its the same for all of us.
 

1stCenturyLady

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Also, you sin. Everyday. And you cant stop it.

You'd be right about my first 30 years of going to church. My testimony tells of what I had to do to stop having the desire to sin. If you want to go to heaven stop having itching ears and choosing the doctrines of demons. Demons don't care if you believe in Jesus, as long as you keep sinning.

Romans 6:6-7; Romans 6:15-16
 

amadeus

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...we have zero recorded instances of tongues and interpretation...of its use in scripture?
What do you suppose Jesus spoke when he spoke in parables? How many understood him before he gave an interpretation of a parable for a very few close followers... but not for everyone? Jesus spoke the parable and also gave the interpretation.


 

Hidden In Him

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What do you suppose Jesus spoke when he spoke in parables? How many understood him before he gave an interpretation of a parable for a very few close followers... but not for everyone? Jesus spoke the parable and also gave the interpretation.

Yes, only the parables were spoken in a language they could understand. :)

But I admit it is an interesting question. I'm guessing very few, actually. The obvious thing that you come away with is that Jesus was not pleased with their not being able to discern the meaning of the parables. Mildly maybe, but He scolded them for not even understating the most basic one, the Parable of the Sower...

You know, related to this I sometimes wonder where we are spiritually today....

But I'd better shut up. That could come off all wrong, LoL. :rolleyes:
 

1stCenturyLady

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How are tongues a sign for unbelievers?

Because God sent them speaking to them in their own languages- actual languages, why? To lead them to repentance.

Verse 23 contradicts your reasoning and most likely the commentary you are studying instead of the Word of God. Those is 23 didn't repent as you claim. They ran for their lives! So, the "sign" of tongues is not a positive sign, but a negative sign. Actually to believers it is positive, but to unbelievers they will think you are crazy, BECAUSE it is just gibberish to them, and many in the church believe lies. 1 Corinthians 14:2 shows that "no man understands them, only God." Your theories are contradicting Scripture. And the account in Acts 2 shows that not only did the disciples experience something supernatural, but the devout Jews HEARING, heard them all speaking their own individual language - like a choir. That is supernatural hearing from the Spirit. There is nothing natural about the gifts of the Spirit.

Tongues is the same type of sign that Jesus was to Israel - "a sign which will be spoken against." Luke 2:34. Note that Luke 2:35 and 1 Corinthians 14:25 say the same thing, confirming that tongues are for a sign which will be spoken against by unbelievers. The negative response confirms them in their unbelief. So be careful what you say against tongues.
 

Enoch111

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What do you suppose Jesus spoke when he spoke in parables? How many understood him before he gave an interpretation of a parable for a very few close followers... but not for everyone? Jesus spoke the parable and also gave the interpretation.
The parables were given to HIDE spiritual truth from those who were wilfully blind and deaf, and in opposition to Christ. But the interpretations were given to those who were disciples and would listen to what Christ was teaching.

There is a lesson here for us today. Those who oppose the truths of the Gospel are rendered judicially blind. They are unable to see spiritual things. And there are many who oppose the Bible and Bible truth. And a time is coming when God will send strong delusion upon this earth (while Christians are absent). Therefore people will believe the lies of Satan and the Antichrist. It almost seems that that strong delusion is already here. There is a flood of lies being broadcast daily, and too many people are believing those lies.
 
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DuckieLady

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Verse 23 contradicts your reasoning and most likely the commentary you are studying instead of the Word of God. Those is 23 didn't repent as you claim. They ran for their lives! So, the "sign" of tongues is not a positive sign, but a negative sign. Actually to believers it is positive, but to unbelievers they will think you are crazy, BECAUSE it is just gibberish to them, and many in the church believe lies. 1 Corinthians 14:2 shows that "no man understands them, only God." Your theories are contradicting Scripture. And the account in Acts 2 shows that not only did the disciples experience something supernatural, but the devout Jews HEARING, heard them all speaking their own individual language - like a choir. That is supernatural hearing from the Spirit. There is nothing natural about the gifts of the Spirit.

Tongues is the same type of sign that Jesus was to Israel - "a sign which will be spoken against." Luke 2:34. Note that Luke 2:35 and 1 Corinthians 14:25 say the same thing, confirming that tongues are for a sign which will be spoken against by unbelievers. The negative response confirms them in their unbelief. So be careful what you say against tongues.
When did I say they repented?

And when did I speak against tongues?

And when did I say it was positive ?

I get the feeling, even seeing with the attack on @Lifelong_sinner, you are not as quick to listen and slow to speak as you could be.

I mean that delicately, not trying to cause harm.
 
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