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Hidden In Him

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Today I learned you've never been to a heavy southern Apostolic Pentecostal church. Some do.


I'm familiar with a lot of the stuff that goes on, yes. I wasn't born yesterday, you know. :)

I've attended a few services that were borderline the same thing. Just junk, and a lot of acting spiritual by cooking stuff up in the flesh. But I do recall attending services much earlier in my walk with Christ where things were much more genuine. It's why I was referencing a book called Quitting Church by Julia Duin in a previous conversation on this. A lot of older Charismatics no longer recognize how things are today from how they were 50 years ago, so they are just bowing out of church altogether. I haven't been a member anywhere in... maybe 10 years now.
 

Curtis

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out of context- I don't feel it is worth repeating but I think @Christ4Me already spelled it out well.

if you all listened to sermons from the early church, I have yet to hear a single sermon or read a single written work regarding any "strange" unknown tongue being used in prayer. Only in modern churches is it a "every day" thing.



This to me seems like a better example of what we should be seeing.


1Co 14:1 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.

1Co 14:2 For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

1Co 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.

1Co 14:16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?

There’s your CONTEXT.

 

Hidden In Him

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There could be! I was getting errors recently, so they may not be working right now.

Thanks. I was trying to message somebody before work, and it's like all the conversations had zero participants in them. The conversations were still there, but there were no options to reply anymore, like they had all been closed down. It was weird.
 
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Christ4Me

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Today I learned you've never been to a heavy southern Apostolic Pentecostal church. Some do.

Makes me wonder how many were turned away from Jesus Christ by that church because they did not get tongues for private use. They would wonder why God does not love them to have the Holy Spirit pray for them out loud like that for why that kind of tongue cannot be of Him at all.

Interesting one I read posted on here yesterday. Look at verse 9, in context though- it's about learning from Israel.

1 Corinthians 10

Thanks for sharing that pointer for edification. It can tie in with Isaiah 8:19 & the warning in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 for why believers are not to believe every spirit but test them and the tongues they bring so they do not have the supernatural tongues that is gibberish nonsense as found in the world 1 John 4:1-6.
 
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Lambano

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Thanks. I was trying to message somebody before work, and it's like all the conversations had zero participants in them. The conversations were still there, but there were no options to reply anymore, like they had all been closed down. It was weird.
Seems to be working now.
 

Christ4Me

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No, He simply allowed the 'original' tongue that all... peoples once spoke prior to the tower of Babel event, to go forth.

Gen 11:1
11 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
KJV


That is why everyone present understood it. The idea of it being 'cloven' means when it went out, it was divided... into the various languages of the multitude present. It had nothing to do with gibberish, as everyone understood in their own language. And that is what is meant that God knows how we speak and hear.

@1stCenturyLady

Cloven tongues was explained if one reads on.

Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

Nah, that's just an idea you've been taught by preachers who claim speaking gibberish is the real cloven tongue of Pentecost. And I've even heard their blasphemy of saying that those who don't speak 'their' idea of the cloven tongue are not saved in Christ.

This is why praying in tongues or assuming tongues for private use is not of Him at all. It makes those who do not pray in tongues as if God does not care about them to have the Holy Spirit in them to pray for them. It is no wonder why some will doubt they have the Holy Spirit at all.

Yet we all do for coming to & believing in Jesus Christ for why there is only one baptism with the Holy Ghost and that was at the calling of the gospel when we had first believed for why there is no other baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues or for any other gift..

1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Those who doubt because they do not have tongues for private use;

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
 

Christ4Me

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Name it then whatever you like, but I have been talking to God in a language He gave to me 46 years ago. For many years now it has been a daily communication link between me and Him. You can disbelieve it, but for me you cannot disprove it. You use the scripture to support your position as if God must agree with it. I strive to surrender to God to be led to His position, whatever that is.

"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" Rom 8:31

This is why praying in tongues or assuming tongues for private use is not of Him at all. It makes those who do not pray in tongues wonder why God does not care about them to have the Holy Spirit in them to pray for them. It is no wonder why some will even doubt they have the Holy Spirit at all.

Yet we all do for coming to & believing in Jesus Christ for why there is only one baptism with the Holy Ghost and that was at the calling of the gospel when we had first believed for why there is no other baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues or another baptism of the Holy Ghost for any other gift..

1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Now do consider how sharing all the benefits of tongues for private use is the same as saying, verse 21 above that you do not need anyone else with that "manifestation" of tongues for private use because you get all those benefits alone.

Not to mention if you gained that tongue for private use by an extra phenomenon apart from salvation for which you separate yourself from the testimony we are all supposed to share in 1 Corinthians 12:13 for having drank one drank of the One Spirit by how we were all baptized into that one body by.

That means tongues were never for private use. This is why the apostle John said not to believe every spirit but test them and the tongues they bring in 1 John 4:1-6 because there is a pagan supernatural tongue that existed before Pentecost and still does today that is just gibberish nonsense. Isaiah 8:19 confirms this in the occult & we are warned 1 Timothy 4:1-2

Tongues for private use cannot benefit you if you do not know without interpretation what that tongue for private use is doing for all the "supposed" benefit for tongues for private use.

Is it not God's will for us to pray normally to know what we had prayed for so when we do get answer to prayer, we can give the Father thanks in Jesus's name?

1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

So you should wonder why tongues had interrupted you when you were praying normally at times. It can't be of Him but it does make me believe that is the devil's will to keep you from doing God's will in praying normally.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

You are saved, brother, but I really believe you are not discerning that spirit nor that tongue for private use, but just wanting to believe it is of God when scripture can show why it is not. So shun that tongue & pray normally so you can get an answer to prayer to give the Father thanks in Jesus's name for answers to prayers which is the will of God for us to do.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is for those who doubt they are saved because they do not have tongues for private use;

Hebrews 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
 

Christ4Me

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out of context- I don't feel it is worth repeating but I think @Christ4Me already spelled it out well.

May God cause the increase.

if you all listened to sermons from the early church, I have yet to hear a single sermon or read a single written work regarding any "strange" unknown tongue being used in prayer. Only in modern churches is it a "every day" thing.

And that should raise a red flag but it doesn't, because believer are not testing the spirits & the tongues when they want to believe it is of God. 1 John 4:1-6

Another red flag about that story as reported by Lambano's friend below.

@Lambano

Lambano said:
My friend tells the story of a little Baptist church in western North Carolina she attended in which the Holy Spirit decided something was going to happen that Sunday that wasn't in the bulletin. People started speaking in tongues (including my friend, for the first and only time in her life), and somebody else was given the power of interpretation. The pastor had the good sense to shut up and just let what happened happen. Strangest (and most memorable) worship experience she ever had. It was just a one-off event, though. Never happened again. end of quote

Women are not allowed to speak in church as this is a commandment from the Lord. 1 Corinthians 14:34-37 & 1 Timothy 2:11-14

So would the Holy Spirit break that commandment? No. So that is a red flag there when it was done in the assembly. God has used women in outward ministry in the O.T. & the N.T., but it is the Lord's commandment for them not to preach or teach in the assembly or in the synagogue.

This to me seems like a better example of what we should be seeing.

Unfortunately, even an event like that, if it was true since it is a second hand report, needs to be tested. Here is why.

There was a report on the internet many years back about a church that had reported as really believing they had the real God's gift of tongues with interpretation. That church had hired a linguist to record the event and interpret it to find out how many languages that was being manifested there, but only found that they were not speaking in a foreign language and certainly not interpreting a foreign language at all but it was just gibberish nonsense.

Now I know that some believers will fake tongues to fit in but there is pause to accuse those interpreting the tongues as purposefully faking it. Here is why. Joyce Meyers explains how she interprets tongues by getting the gist or the feel of what is being said. It is no wonder that those who had thought they were interpreting tongues in that church, were not really doing it, but winging it by their guts rather than by the Holly Spirit. And the Holy Spirit wasn't interpreting those tongues because it was never a foreign language in the first place and so those tongues were not manifested by Him for why there is no interpretation coming from the Holy Spirit in another.

I do not believe the gifts have ceased but back then, churches had members & visitors with different languages and since the gifts are to profit the body of the assembly, to edify everyone, and yet when everyone speaks the same language, why the run around? Is the Holy Spirit vain? No. If the Holy Spirit teaches us directly through the scripture, then why would anyone believe they are being edified by tongue with no interpretation when they do not understand it unless it was interpreted? I believe even Paul spoke against this here.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Gnosticism is not very well known other than "secret knowledge" or "hidden knowledge". It is no wonder why their manuscripts in the Alexandria region were the oldest manuscripts, because the scripture fell out of use as I discern with Him that it is because they were led astray also into believing tongues for private use as being self edifying, and yet they admit that they do not understand it for why it is secret or hidden knowledge.

Makes you wonder, huh? But I believe that was what Paul was exhorting believers to do for edification rather than those who wrest Paul's words into believing tongues are for self edification when he was trying to show why prophesy is better than tongues because tongues is not a stand alone gift for why they should pray that another interpret that tongue so they can understand it too for that tongue to be fruitful to them.
 

Lambano

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Women are not allowed to speak in church as this is a commandment from the Lord.
Fine, you can tell the Holy Spirit what He can and cannot do.

31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

7 But if you had known what this means: ‘I desire compassion, rather than sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” (Matthew 12:7-8)

Ὃ γέγραφα γέγραφα
 
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Davy

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If all tongues were known languages understood by all, there’d be no reason to need them interpreted in church, and when the Corinthian church forbade speaking in tongues, that means they forbade speaking in known languages that are understood - which would mean a VERY quiet church service.

If all tongues were understood, then Paul wouldn’t have said when he prays in tongues, his spirit prays but he has no understanding of what’s being said.

Again, you're being deceived, because Apostle Paul was preaching about a translator of KNOWN languages in the Church, that even if no one present could translate to remain silent.

You should watch the following video. God is not the author of confusion, like Apostle Paul said (1 Corinthians 14:33). The examples in that video are obvious confusion, and not of God...

 

1stCenturyLady

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Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?


Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

"Them" is all of them. Each man heard all of them speak in his own language. So the Parthians heard all of them speak his own language. The Elamites heard all of them speak his own language, etc. They HEARD a choir speak his own particular language.
 

1stCenturyLady

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Again, you're being deceived, because Apostle Paul was preaching about a translator of KNOWN languages in the Church, that even if no one present could translate to remain silent.

You sound like my mother's pastor who who was born in Germany, then his family went to Brazil so he knew three languages. He said that was speaking in tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:2 is the rule you cannot contradict.
 

Christ4Me

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Fine, you can tell the Holy Spirit what He can and cannot do.

31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matthew 12:31-32)

7 But if you had known what this means: ‘I desire compassion, rather than sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” (Matthew 12:7-8)

Ὃ γέγραφα γέγραφα

Like I had asked, would the Holy Spirit break the Lord's commandment by manifesting tongues in women or even to prophesy or to teach?

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

1 Timothy 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I'd say no.

It cannot be blasphemy when we recognize what the Holy Spirit will not do in according to the scripture.

The Lord can use women in outreach ministry, but not in the church. In churches that compromises in having women elders & deacons, I had heard enough complaints from the women about how they have to do everything. I hear the complaint about the home life too. So no.

If women recognize their roles to where the Lord would use them at; outward ministry like fellowship, social functions, missionary outreach, eating out, having Bible studies in their homes as well as fellowship, & prayer meetings, visitations of the elderly and home bound, the sick in the hospital or at home, by engaging church members through out the week, maybe, just maybe, church's attendance would not be declining, but increasing.

And maybe the elders & deacons will be more active in ministry in the church rather than letting the pastor do it all.

Do note how 1 Timothy 2:11-13 as displayed above n this post is before this edification about the office of elders & deacons.

1 Timothy 3:1This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
 

Davy

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You sound like my mother's pastor who who was born in Germany, then his family went to Brazil so he knew three languages. He said that was speaking in tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:2 is the rule you cannot contradict.

Oh, that's actually very easy...

1 Cor 14:2-3
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
KJV


Firstly, scrap... that word "unknown" there in the KJV, it is NOT in the Greek texts of The New Testament. The translators added it.

Secondly, the word "tongue" there in the Greek is 'glossa', which means KNOWN languages of the world.

Thirdly, if someone among a group of people is from a different country with a different language that none present understand, then that person will be speaking to GOD only, as He understands all languages. And thus it will be that person's spirit speaking to God with God only knowing what he is saying.

Fourthly, Apostle Paul's idea there to 'prophesy' does NOT mean speaking in an unknown tongue. It means to TEACH with easily UNDERSTOOD WORDS, and that means in KNOWN language.