Jehovah is either God or He is not, correct?

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Wrangler

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Your altered version of the Bible has separated us sir.
Reading your posts is like reading someone who denies gravity even though it can be demonstrated.

An undeniable fact of Scripture is that Jesus died. This is how we know he is not God. Is it your position that God died? Is it your position that God can die?

Scripture says Jesus died. It does not say the trinitarian dualistic addition of words to qualify an unqualified fact. Jesus died. This is not the same thing as part of him died. Jesus physically died, etc.

The theological significance of a man dying and being resurrected as eternal consequences for us. If God merely came in the form of a man and only appeared to die, it actually has no theological significance whatsoever given that God is all-powerful. I wonder how you dismiss from the verses below:
  1. God, in his unitarian nature, sent Jesus.
  2. God, in his unitarian nature, chose Jesus.
  3. Jesus has no power or choice but to stay in heaven until God, in his unitarian nature, announces the day.


17 Listen, friends, I know you didn’t fully realize what you were doing when you rejected and betrayed Jesus. I know that you, and your rulers as well, were acting in ignorance. 18 God was at work in all this, fulfilling what He had predicted through all the prophets—that the Anointed One would suffer (NOT GOD WHO SUFFERED). 19 So now you need to rethink everything and turn to God so your sins will be forgiven and a new day can dawn, days of refreshing times flowing from the Lord (WHO IS NOT THE ETERNAL GOD BUT ONE OF MANY lords IN THE BIBLE). 20 Then God may send Jesus the Anointed, whom God has chosen for you. 21 He is in heaven now and must remain there until the day of universal restoration comes—the restoration which in ancient times God announced through the holy prophets.
Acts 3:17-21 (Voice) EMPHASIS ADDED.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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It's awesome how you just make stuff up to support your doctrine.
Are you a Christian Scientist? You quoted a Christian Scientist in one of your posts which is why I ask. All the Christians I know would never do such a thing. If so, my stuff is very much different than Mary Baker Eddie's stuff?
 

Robert Gwin

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A little history: Jehovah is a made up name from the tetragrammaton, YHWH in the 16th century. First introduced by William Tyndale in his translation of Exodus 6:3. The consensus among scholars is that the vocalization of YHWH in the 6th century BC was Yahweh. During the 2nd century BC the pronunciation was avoided. The Jews did not want to mispronounce in fear so they used Adonai. The Hebrew vowels in Adonai were added to the Tretragrammaton by the Masoretes in the 12th century and the result was a transliteration, Yehowah, later changed to Jehovah.
Now, The pre-incarnate Son of God, was the one who spoke to Moses! Surprise! Therefore Jesus is YHWH. He has always been the mediator between God and man.
Proof: The whole Bible is about Jesus in the NT and the Messiah/ Savior in the OT.
If Jehovah is the correct name to be used, then Jesus is Jehovah.
He is the one who spoke to Moses when Moses asked Him, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.'" Exodus 3:13, 14
This was the introduction, a pre-cursor to Who GOD is and what His plan was that was to be fulfilled when He would enter our physical realm, empty himself into a child named Jesus, also known as Yeshua, the LORD, the Messiah, OUR SAVIOR, Immanuel.
Those two introductory words that express God's existence and being, only preface His identity until He would reveal Himself in the flesh. "I AM" is a clear reference to Jesus in the Old Testament. Jesus told us and showed us Who He was:
"I am the Bread which came down from heaven." John 6:41
"I am the Light of the World ..." John 8:12
"I am from above ..." John 8:23
" ... before Abraham was, I AM!" John 8:58
"I am the Door ..." John 10:9
"I am the Good Shepherd ..." John 10:11
"... I am the Way, the Truth and the Life ..." John 14:6
"I am the vine; you are the branches ..."John 15:5
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Rev.1:8

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God."
John 1:1
"The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. ..." John 1:14
"For by Him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were create by Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." Col. 1:16, 17 ["hold together" is also translated as "consist".]

May I ask why you stated I AM was what God said His name was instead of what He really told Moses Ron?
 

Robert Gwin

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You are so very wrong. the Watchtower New World Mistranslation has butchered the word of God in Philippians 2! and they will be held accountable for it. The rest of teh bible does not confirm it- the retranslation of the bible by the Watchtower says it, but that is not the Word of God and neither is the NWT.



Well lying is very unbecoming of you.

1. I never try to push Jesus into the position of His Father. I have consistently said He is equally divine as His Father. So you are ling here.

2. I have read and posted the Corinthians verse many many many times. so you are lhying here as well.



I believe the same as your last paragfraph, for that is Scripture. where you err in believing in your Watchtower masters is that Jesus is as divine as His Father, inferior in His position but equal in nature. Yes, Jesus at teh end of His 1,000 year kingdom will hand th ekingdom back to His father!



This is so sad. As jesus said:

Matthew 6:23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

How great is the darkness that surrounds you. but have hope as the watchtower says when they are caught in changing- the light is getting brighter and brighter! when it gets bright enough to see the truth- You will rejoice I was a pain in your backside!

Just remember, the reason why the "translators" of the NWT remained anonymous is because they could only get marginal scholars in the languages to say anything good about that abomination.

We are convinced that Jesus continues to direct the congregation still today sir. If it is evil in your heart to serve Jehovah, fine with me, as for me and my household, we will serve Jehovah.
 

Robert Gwin

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The trinitarian absurdity is to deny this passage makes explicit that God, in his unitarian nature, acted and is the subject of the sentence. "Under his feet" is a difference "him" that did the acting, which is to say, Jesus is the object of the sentence.

This is NOT the same as Jack and Jill ran up the hill. Both Jack and Jill are the subjects of that sentence.

If Jesus were God, the emphatic distinction made in v27 is purposeless. It's like saying, "Thank God Trump is out of office and Biden now occupies the seat of power. Trump will never have power again. AND Biden is Trump." If Trump is Biden, the previous 2 sentences are wrong, purposeless and pointless. That is, nonsense. The trinitarian take is nonsense.

The truth is that if Jesus is God we have no hope. Our hope is based on his sinless sacrifice. If he sinned, then his ransom could not be accepted, as it would not equal what was lost. I fail to understand the logic of such a clear doctrine. I can only state that satan is an extremely capable god. Like the song says, he's got the whole world in his hands. 2 Cor 4:4
 
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Robert Gwin

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Reading your posts is like reading someone who denies gravity even though it can be demonstrated.

An undeniable fact of Scripture is that Jesus died. This is how we know he is not God. Is it your position that God died? Is it your position that God can die?

Scripture says Jesus died. It does not say the trinitarian dualistic addition of words to qualify an unqualified fact. Jesus died. This is not the same thing as part of him died. Jesus physically died, etc.

The theological significance of a man dying and being resurrected as eternal consequences for us. If God merely came in the form of a man and only appeared to die, it actually has no theological significance whatsoever given that God is all-powerful. I wonder how you dismiss from the verses below:
  1. God, in his unitarian nature, sent Jesus.
  2. God, in his unitarian nature, chose Jesus.
  3. Jesus has no power or choice but to stay in heaven until God, in his unitarian nature, announces the day.


17 Listen, friends, I know you didn’t fully realize what you were doing when you rejected and betrayed Jesus. I know that you, and your rulers as well, were acting in ignorance. 18 God was at work in all this, fulfilling what He had predicted through all the prophets—that the Anointed One would suffer (NOT GOD WHO SUFFERED). 19 So now you need to rethink everything and turn to God so your sins will be forgiven and a new day can dawn, days of refreshing times flowing from the Lord (WHO IS NOT THE ETERNAL GOD BUT ONE OF MANY lords IN THE BIBLE). 20 Then God may send Jesus the Anointed, whom God has chosen for you. 21 He is in heaven now and must remain there until the day of universal restoration comes—the restoration which in ancient times God announced through the holy prophets.
Acts 3:17-21 (Voice) EMPHASIS ADDED.

Amen to this sir, fer sher!
 

Ronald David Bruno

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May I ask why you stated I AM was what God said His name was instead of what He really told Moses Ron?
Because that is what scripture stated. I've looked at about 60 English translations and they all say the same thing. Here are those I am familiar with.
KJ21
And God said unto Moses, “I Am That I Am.” And He said, “Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, ‘I Am hath sent me unto you.’”
ASV
And God said unto Moses, I am that I am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I am hath sent me unto you.
AMP
God said to Moses, “I Am Who I Am”; and He said, “You shall say this to the Israelites, ‘I Am has sent me to you.’”
CSB
God replied to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.”
CEB
God said to Moses, “I Am Who I Am. So say to the Israelites, ‘I Am has sent me to you.’”
CEV
God said to Moses: I am the eternal God. So tell them that the Lord, whose name is “I Am,” has sent you. This is my name forever, and it is the name that people must use from now on.
DARBY
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.
ERV
Then God said to Moses, “Tell them, ‘I Am Who I Am.’ When you go to the Israelites, tell them, ‘I Am’ sent me to you.”
ESV
God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
GNV
And God answered Moses, I AM THAT I AM. Also he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
HCSB
God replied to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.”
JUB
And God answered unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the sons of Israel: I AM (YHWH) has sent me unto you.
KJV
And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
NABRE
God replied to Moses: I am who I am. Then he added: This is what you will tell the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.
NASB
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “This is what you shall say to the sons of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
NASB1995
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’
NIRV
God said to Moses, “I am who I am. Here is what you must say to the Israelites. Tell them, ‘I am has sent me to you.’ 
NIV
God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
NKJV
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’
NRSV
God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” He said further, “Thus you shall say to the Israelites, ‘I am has sent me to you.’
RSV
God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
WEB
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM,” and he said, “You shall tell the children of Israel this: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’
YLT
And God saith unto Moses, `I Am That Which I Am;' He saith also, `Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.'

What does your NWT say? Probably something different?
 
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Wrangler

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The truth is that if Jesus is God we have no hope. Our hope is based on his sinless sacrifice. If he sinned, then his ransom could not be accepted, as it would not equal what was lost.

To be honest, I never understood the trinitarian claim that Jesus has to be God if we are to be saved because only God is sinless. God was going to accept the human sacrifice of Isaac. Where is the claim that Isaac was God or that he was sinless?
 

Wrangler

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Because that is what scripture stated.

I generally like the CEV translation. If you look, it combines v14 -15 for easier readability. This translation is not so good when it comes to peeing matches about what word was used.

Verse 14 merely says I AM has sent you. The VOICE translation explains this is why it generally refers to Jesus God as The eternal because this expression means he is eternal. However, Verse 15 explicitly states his name, which you have to deny for doctrinal reasons.

14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and thus I am to be remembered throughout all generations.
Ex 3:15 (ESV)


The name of God is the LORD (capitalized). Jesus is never referred to as the LORD (capitalized) but 1 among many lords (lowercase). This is how you know the NT writers did not think Jesus was God. Hope this helps.
 

Ronald Nolette

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We are convinced that Jesus continues to direct the congregation still today sir. If it is evil in your heart to serve Jehovah, fine with me, as for me and my household, we will serve Jehovah.

Yes Jesus does through the Person of the Holy Spirit which lives in all true believers. But as your organization denies that Jesus rose from teh dead in the body He died with as the Scriptures say, be warned that no kingdom hall is a congregation of God. May the Lord Jesus Christ enlighten you to see this truth that you may be saved and born again as all men are required to be!
 

Ronald Nolette

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Wasn't it you that are saying Jesus is God? We do not say that sir.

I have explained many timesd to y9ou what that means. so to imply what you write is you simply either being completely ignorant of what I wrote or intentionally lying about what I have wrote.

I said Jesus is not the Father. But He is equally God in nature as His Father God is Divine , Jesus is equally divine!

Teh Father is above all, then comes Jesus!

If you do not understand this, let me know I will expalin as much as needed. But if you do understand, stop lying about my words!
 

Ronald David Bruno

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To be honest, I never understood the trinitarian claim that Jesus has to be God if we are to be saved because only God is sinless. God was going to accept the human sacrifice of Isaac. Where is the claim that Isaac was God or that he was sinless?
That was a test of his faith, God never intended to allow him to kill his son. What did happen was that a Lamb was provided. 2000 years later, The Lamb of God was sacrificed in the same location. Jesus was without sin, and became sin, taking all the sins of the world for all time upon himself - only God can accomplish that. We are talking about trillions of sins.
 

Cassandra

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Your altered version of the Bible has separated us sir.

Don't you just love it when he calls every other Bible altered except for his?

NWT done in 1950? Why that was ages ago. I wasn't even born yet.

Usually if one thing is made, and another thing is made after it that is like it, but not completely like it--that is the altered one.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Saying that is an assertion but you say it as though it were conclusion. What verse says that only God can be the suffering servant and Anointed? None.
I didn't say that. We are all suffering servants and many are anointed. All the prophets were.
I sad only God could become sin - as in take all the sins of humanity upon himself and wash them away. It takes omnipotence, omnipresence and omniscience to accomplish that.
 

Robert Gwin

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Because that is what scripture stated. I've looked at about 60 English translations and they all say the same thing. Here are those I am familiar with.
KJ21
And God said unto Moses, “I Am That I Am.” And He said, “Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, ‘I Am hath sent me unto you.’”
ASV
And God said unto Moses, I am that I am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I am hath sent me unto you.
AMP
God said to Moses, “I Am Who I Am”; and He said, “You shall say this to the Israelites, ‘I Am has sent me to you.’”
CSB
God replied to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.”
CEB
God said to Moses, “I Am Who I Am. So say to the Israelites, ‘I Am has sent me to you.’”
CEV
God said to Moses: I am the eternal God. So tell them that the Lord, whose name is “I Am,” has sent you. This is my name forever, and it is the name that people must use from now on.
DARBY
And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.
ERV
Then God said to Moses, “Tell them, ‘I Am Who I Am.’ When you go to the Israelites, tell them, ‘I Am’ sent me to you.”
ESV
God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
GNV
And God answered Moses, I AM THAT I AM. Also he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
HCSB
God replied to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.”
JUB
And God answered unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the sons of Israel: I AM (YHWH) has sent me unto you.
KJV
And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
NABRE
God replied to Moses: I am who I am. Then he added: This is what you will tell the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.
NASB
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “This is what you shall say to the sons of Israel: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
NASB1995
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’
NIRV
God said to Moses, “I am who I am. Here is what you must say to the Israelites. Tell them, ‘I am has sent me to you.’ 
NIV
God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
NKJV
And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’
NRSV
God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” He said further, “Thus you shall say to the Israelites, ‘I am has sent me to you.’
RSV
God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
WEB
God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM,” and he said, “You shall tell the children of Israel this: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’
YLT
And God saith unto Moses, `I Am That Which I Am;' He saith also, `Thus dost thou say to the sons of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.'

What does your NWT say? Probably something different?

No sir, that was not the name Jehovah gave to Moses as being His name, you cut Him off. He gave Moses His name 1 verse later, and told Moses that would be His name forever. Am I in error Ron, or is that what the Bible really teaches? I Am was one of His qualities He was going to demonstrate to Pharaoh sir, not His name.

If you agree this is the case, then let us walk through those passages you posted, and the validity of what they actually say.
 

Robert Gwin

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To be honest, I never understood the trinitarian claim that Jesus has to be God if we are to be saved because only God is sinless. God was going to accept the human sacrifice of Isaac. Where is the claim that Isaac was God or that he was sinless?

Offering Isaac was a test of Abraham's loyalty Wrangler, and it foreshadowed God offering up His only begotten as well. Interestingly Isaac is referred to as Abrahams only begotten, but was actually his second son. (Hebrews 11:17, 18) . . .By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac—the man who had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up his only-begotten son— 18 although it had been said to him: “What will be called your offspring will be through Isaac.”
Jesus was a descendant of Isaac. Jesus of course was sinless, with God as His father, he was not born with inherited sin of Adam. The Bible calls him a corresponding ransom. Equal in other words.
 

Robert Gwin

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Yes Jesus does through the Person of the Holy Spirit which lives in all true believers. But as your organization denies that Jesus rose from teh dead in the body He died with as the Scriptures say, be warned that no kingdom hall is a congregation of God. May the Lord Jesus Christ enlighten you to see this truth that you may be saved and born again as all men are required to be!

Of course we deny Jesus rose bodily. We do not teach he reneged on the sacrifice. We fully recognize that we were redeemed by the sacrifice of Jesus' flesh and blood. Luke 22:19,20. We are further aware that Jesus returned to heaven, where flesh and blood cannot go. We are also aware that the Bible states Jesus was raised a spirit (1 Peter 3:18) . . .For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

A fact I found interesting as well, were you aware that Jesus wasn't given full control of holy spirit until after he returned to heaven? Acts 2:33 I really found that interesting when I first seen it.
 

Robert Gwin

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I have explained many timesd to y9ou what that means. so to imply what you write is you simply either being completely ignorant of what I wrote or intentionally lying about what I have wrote.

I said Jesus is not the Father. But He is equally God in nature as His Father God is Divine , Jesus is equally divine!

Teh Father is above all, then comes Jesus!

If you do not understand this, let me know I will expalin as much as needed. But if you do understand, stop lying about my words!


On this point we agree Ronald, but likely have a different understanding of the word Divine. We believe all spirit beings are Divine in nature sir, but not equally, which I gather you don't really think either since you stated the Father is above all, then comes Jesus, which we are in complete agreement of. There is an organized class structure in heaven 1 Cor 11:3; Job 1:6
 
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