Understanding the Trinity.

[tigger 2]

1 John 5 New King James Version

6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

..........................................

1 John 5:7
Noted NT scholar, Dr. William Barclay, states the following about 1 John 5:7 as found in the KJV:
"There is, of course, nothing wrong with it [if the trinity were really true as trinitarians like Barclay himself want!]; but modern scholarship has made it quite certain that John did not write it and that it is a much later commentary on, and addition to, his words; and that is why [nearly] all modern translations omit it.” - pp. 110-111, The Letters of John and Jude, The Daily Study Bible Series, Revised Edition, The Westminster Press, 1976. [Material in brackets and emphasis added by me.]

Popular trinitarian scholar Daniel B. Wallace admits the same: https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8#_ftnref3

Notice the comments concerning this disputed passage found in the respected trinitarian reference work, The Expositor's Greek Testament:

It says in a note for 1 John 5:7 (as found in the Received Text and the KJV):

"A Latin interpolation, certainly spurious. (I) Found in no Gk. MS. [Greek Manuscript] except two late minuscules - 162 (Vatican), 15th c., the Lat. Vg. [Latin Vulgate] Version with a Gk. text adapted thereto; 34 (Trin. Coll., Dublin), 16th c. (2) Quoted by none of the Gk Fathers. Had they known it, they would have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian [325 A.D.]). (3) Found in none of the early versions - in Vg. but not as it [originally] left the hands of St. Jerome." - p. 195, Vol. 5, Eerdmans Publishing Co.

The following modern trinitarian Bibles do not include the spurious words found in the KJV at 1 Jn 5:7: Revised Standard Version; New Revised Standard Version; American Standard Version; New International Version; New American Standard Bible; Living Bible; Good News Bible; New English Bible; Revised English Bible; New American Bible (1970 and 1991 editions); Jerusalem Bible; New Jerusalem Bible; Modern Language Bible; Holy Bible: Easy-to-Read Version; An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed); and translations by Moffatt; C. B. Williams; William Beck; Phillips; Rotherham; Lamsa; Byington; Barclay; etc.

WHY did trinitarian copyists and scholars think it necessary to construct this “scripture” and actually add it to the Holy Scriptures? What, then, does this tell us about the evaluation of the rest of the “evidence” for a trinity by these very same trinitarians? Isn’t this most terrible, blasphemous action by them actually an admission that the rest of the “evidence” for a 3-in-one God is completely inadequate? Why else would they do such a desperate, terrible thing?

WHAT does this tell us about those men who first constructed the “trinity doctrine” and forced it on an unwilling Roman Church in 325 A. D. at the Nicene Council? (See HIST and CREEDS studies .)

WHY do so many trinitarians feel it necessary to “preserve” this clearly dishonest King James Version tradition in not only the most-used King James Version itself (which has been revised many times with thousands of changes in its 400-year history while still leaving this spurious verse), but even in at least three modern translations (NKJV, KJIIV, NLV)?
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/08/1-john-57-kjv.html

 

[Scott Downey]

Here is another good one.
Genesis 32
New King James Version
Jacob meets the angels of God, the impression is as a camp of war, Jacob is about to meet with Esau again, so a dangerous time is coming. Esau's plan is to kill Jacob.

1 So Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met him.
2 When Jacob saw them, he said, “This is God’s camp.” And he called the name of that place Mahanaim.

Jacob prays
9 Then Jacob said, “O God of my father Abraham and God of my father Isaac, the Lord who said to me, ‘Return to your country and to your family, and I will deal well with you’ 10 I am not worthy of the least of all the mercies and of all the truth which You have shown Your servant; for I crossed over this Jordan with my staff, and now I have become two companies. 11 Deliver me, I pray, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau; for I fear him, lest he come and attack me and the mother with the children. 12 For You said, ‘I will surely treat you well, and make your descendants as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.’ ”

Now Jacob spends the night there. And prepares his family and people to meet with and give gifts to Esau. Jacob remains behind.
And God comes to Jacob

22 And he arose that night and took his two wives, his two female servants, and his eleven sons, and crossed over the ford of Jabbok. 23 He took them, sent them over the brook, and sent over what he had. 24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. 25 Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob’s hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. 26 And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.”

But he said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me!”

27 So He said to him, “What is your name?”

He said, “Jacob.”

28 And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

29 Then Jacob asked, saying, “Tell me Your name, I pray.”

And He said, “Why is it that you ask about My name?” And He blessed him there.

30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” 31 Just as he crossed over Penuel the sun rose on him, and he limped on his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the children of Israel do not eat the muscle that shrank, which is on the hip socket, because He touched the socket of Jacob’s hip in the muscle that shrank.

This was Christ, the Man, before he was born, incarnated as a baby.
Jacob acknowledges he has seen God and lived, and God blessed Jacob.
This appearing was not God the Father who know flesh can see His face and live, this was the Son.

 

[tigger 2]

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

........................................................
Is. 9:6

All Christians, I believe, accept this son as being the Christ. Some will tell you that since the meaning of this symbolic name includes the words "Mighty God, Eternal Father," then Jesus is the Mighty God and the Eternal Father."

But there are at least two other ways this personal name has been interpreted by reputable Bible scholars. (1) The titles found within the name (e.g., "Mighty God") are intended in their secondary, subordinate senses. (2) The titles within the name are meant to praise God the Father, not the Messiah.

….

And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name is with the understanding that it (as with many, if not most, of the other Israelites' personal names) does not apply directly to the Messiah (as we have already seen with "Elijah," "Abijah," etc.) but is, instead, a statement praising the Father, Jehovah God.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as "my," "is," "of," etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

For instance, two of the best Bible concordances (Young's and Strong's) and a popular trinitarian Bible dictionary (Today's Dictionary of the Bible) differ greatly on the exact meaning of many Biblical personal names because of those "minor" words which must be added to bring out the intended meaning.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name "Elimelech" (which is literally just "God King") means "God of (the) King." Young's Analytical Concordance says it means "God is King." Today's Dictionary of the Bible says it means " God his king" - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982.

I haven’t found any scholar/translator who says the name of Elimelech should be translated with its literal meaning of “God King.”

Those missing minor words that the translator must supply at his own discretion can often make a vital difference! - For example, the footnote for Gen. 17:5 in The NIV Study Bible: The name 'Abram' "means `Exalted Father,' probably in reference to God (i.e., `[God is] Exalted Father')."- Brackets in original.

But perhaps most instructive of all is the name given to the prophet’s child in Isaiah 8:3 shortly before his giving the name found in Is. 9:6.

Is. 8:3
Maher-shalal-hash-baz: Literally, “spoil speeds prey hastes” or “swift booty speedy prey.” Translated by various Bible scholars as: “In making speed to the spoil he hasteneth the prey” - - “swift [is] booty, speedy [is] prey” - - “the spoil speeded, the prey hasteth” - - “Speeding for spoil, hastening for plunder” - - “There will soon be looting and stealing”- - “Speeding is the spoil, Hastening is the prey” - - “The Looting Will Come Quickly; the Prey Will Be Easy” - - “Take sway the spoils with speed, quickly take the prey” - - “Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey” - - “Swift the Spoils of War and Speedy Comes the Attacker” - - “Make haste to plunder! Hurry to the spoil!” - - “Make haste to the spoil; fall upon the prey.”

And John Gill wrote:

“‘hasten to seize the prey, and to take away the spoil.’ Some translate it, ‘in hastening the prey, the spoiler hastens’; perhaps it may be better rendered, ‘hasten to the spoil, hasten to the prey.’”

Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated as:

"And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace" - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.) to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

‘For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, ‘Wonderful, Counselor [IS] The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.’ The two letter word ‘is,’ is usually not stated in Hebrew. Rather, the ‘is’ is understood.” - https://edward-t-babinski.blogspot.com/2016/04/prophecy-about-jesus-mighty-god.html

The Leeser Bible also translates it:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith and Goodspeed) says:
"Wonderful counselor is God almighty, Father forever, Prince of peace."

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:

".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

And,

‘Wonderful in counsel is God the mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace’ (Hertz 1968).

Of course it could also be honestly translated: "Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace."

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[1]"The Mighty God is planning grace;
[2] The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler."

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism ("Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz" means [1]"quick to the plunder; [2] swift to the spoil" - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [1]"For unto us a child is born; [2] unto us a son is given." It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

So it is clear, even to a number of trinitarian scholars, that Is. 9:6 does not imply that Jesus is Jehovah God.

 

[tigger 2]

Here is another good one.
....
30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” 31 Just as he crossed over Penuel the sun rose on him, and he limped on his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the children of Israel do not eat the muscle that shrank, which is on the hip socket, because He touched the socket of Jacob’s hip in the muscle that shrank.

This was Christ, the Man, before he was born, incarnated as a baby.
Jacob acknowledges he has seen God and lived, and God blessed Jacob.
This appearing was not God the Father who know flesh can see His face and live, this was the Son.

John tells us that no man has ever seen God (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12).
............................
"Yes, he [Jacob] wrestled with the angel and prevailed; He wept and implored His favor. He found Him at Bethel, And there He spoke with us," - Hosea 12:4, NASB.

 

[Wrangler]

The ‘incomprehensibility’ argument is old and pathetic as an excuse for believing that the Being who gave us logic and law, defies logic and law.

Most excellent. I look forward to his erudite rejoinder.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I am not a "oneness" Pentecostal if that is what you're accusing me of. The trinitarians believe in three different persons and One God, therefore I do not deny the Son of God, neither do I deny the Humanity of Christ.... "A body I have prepared for you"... This discussion is of the deity of Christ.


It is God the Son who became Human and died to save His creation. This is the scope and depth of his love for us, that he would die for such a worm as I.

Seeing as @Wrangler is still unwilling to answer my questions, I will ask them of you.

Acts 20:28 saysit is the blood of God that has purchased us, If Jesus is not God incarnate, when is it that God the Father shed his blood?

Zechariah 12:10 speaks of the redemption of Israel, and Jehovah speaking says they will see ME whom they have pierced. When was it that God the Father was pierced If Jesus is not Jehovah?

The phrase " God the Son" isn't in any of the manuscripts. By mistake it was put in a medieval manuscript, MS No.1985 where Galatians 2:20 has "Son of God" it was mistakenly changed to, "God the Son." John the Baptist didn't call Jesus, "God the Son" but instead called him the "Son of God." Jesus himself said he was the "Son of God," not "God the Son."
One thing I have learned in my research concerning the scriptures is that there are many different Bibles and in certain scriptures they don't translate them quite the same. That's why so many people speak out against a new version of he Bible. Some Bibles such as, Common English Bible, The Complete Jewish Bible, Good News Translation, Mechanical English Bible has son in brackets after the word son, New Century Bible, New Revised Standard, Revised standard Version, The Emphatic Diaglott, The Emphasized Bible, Schonfield at Acts 20:28 say purchased with the blood of his own Son.
At Zechariah 12:10 As far as literal piercing is concerned, this occurred in the case of Christ Jesus, and at John 19:37 the prophecy of Zechariah 12:10 is quoted and applied to Jesus: “They will look upon the one whom they pierced.” (NW) They did not literally pierce God, who was in heaven and to whom Jesus spoke when he was on the torture stake. (Matt. 27:46; Luke 23:46) God could not die, and then resurrect himself. (Ps. 90:2) Jesus Christ was Jehovah’s representative who became “the exact representation of his very being”, in piercing Jesus they could be said to be piercing Jehovah. (Heb. 1:3, NW) When sending out his followers to preach Jesus said: “He that receives you receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth.” (Matt. 10:40, NW) This shows that in receiving Jesus we receive Jehovah who sent him. In like manner, to pierce Jesus is to pierce Jehovah who sent him. It does not prove Jesus and Jehovah are one, any more than it proves Jesus and his followers are literally one. In another case Jehovah showed that to reject his representative is to reject Him. When Samuel was Jehovah’s appointed judge over Israel the people came requesting a king instead of a judge. Samuel was displeased when they said: “Give us a king to judge us.” But Jehovah told Samuel: “They have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me.” (1 Sam. 8:4-7, AS) In rejecting Jehovah’s representative they rejected Jehovah, in effect; but this did not make Samuel one with Jehovah in a trinity.

 

[Wrangler]

Is. 9:6

All Christians, I believe, accept this son as being the Christ. Some will tell you that since the meaning of this symbolic name includes the words "Mighty God, Eternal Father," then Jesus is the Mighty God and the Eternal Father."

But there are at least two other ways this personal name has been interpreted by reputable Bible scholars. (1) The titles found within the name (e.g., "Mighty God") are intended in their secondary, subordinate senses. (2) The titles within the name are meant to praise God the Father, not the Messiah.

Great analysis but I fear he does not have eyes to see.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The anti Trinity people are under a strong delusion about who God is.

But that could not possibly apply to trinitarians....could it? You who are pointing fingers....how many are pointed back at yourselves?

Scripture clearly says Christ is a form of God, so therefore God of one God.

No it doesn’t. It says that Christ existed in God’s form....so what “form” does God have?

Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well....
“Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You people worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, because salvation is from the Jews. But a time is coming—and now is here —when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers. God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:21-24 - NET)

According to Jesus, God is in “spirit” form as are all who inhabit the spirit realm. So Jesus too was in spirit form before his earthly mission and returned there. (1 Peter 3:18) The angels too are spirits. (Hebrews 1:14)

'The Lord said to my Lord.' Even back then they dared not question Christ anymore, but people today when Christ is not physically present, do attack Christ on who He is. Even all the Jews knew that the Christ was equal with God as Christ called God His Father, and they knew what the term Christ meant.

I think you are inventing your own truth now.....

If Christ had claimed to be God, he would have been committing blasphemy and the Jews would have had proof and a legal reason to put him to death under their law......but since Christ (which means “anointed one”) was only ever claiming to be “the Son of God”, (never "God the Son") no blasphemy was committed. He had to die as an innocent man.
The Jews wanted an excuse to put him to death, but he committed no crime. Never once did he claim equality with his God and Father.

Matthew 22
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?”

They said to Him, “The Son of David.”

43 He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying:

44 ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool” ’?

45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?” 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.

They did not dare to question him because they could not defeat his argument.
David called the coming Messiah his “Lord”....but did that make him God?

In the Hebrew scripture you quoted there, the Tanakh has the divine name, which reads....
“Yahweh said to my Lord”.....and if you check with reputable translations you will see that one “LORD” is capitalised (indicating Yahweh) and the other is not, to distinguish which “Lord” is being spoken about.
You really need to do some Bible study....the title "Lord" does not necessarily mean "God".

Then a super obvious one teaching us Christ is God come in the flesh, and that all of creation will worship and acknowledge Him as the Lord.
The non Trinitarians will all do it eventually, acknowledge Him, none can escape Christ, God has submitted ALL things under Christ.

Philippians 2 also proves Christ and God as distinct 'forms' of one God

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This is a favourite of mine.....super obvious eh? let's see....

The translation you used is terrible....very pro-trinitarian.

The ASV renders this passage more correctly in line with the Greek.....lets take it apart bit by bit....

“Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped”
So equality with God was NOT something to be grasped....hence Jesus never even suggested such a thing.

“but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.”

So the pre-human Jesus, “emptied himself” of his glorious spirit body and willingly took the form of a human servant and “obediently” followed his plotted course to his death.
Who was Jesus being obedient to?
Is one part of God subservient to his equal self? Why does God need to obey God?
If Jesus was "fully man and fully God" as most trinitarians believe, then how can that be true?

“Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name”

God highly exalted his equal self? How is that possible? And how does God give himself a name that is higher than the one he already has? (Psalm 83:18)
In the Bible, God has many titles but only one name.....Jesus OTOH, has many names and many titles depending on the role he is playing. So the superior Father can exalt his son to a higher position and with a new name to his credit. (Revelation 3:12) But there is no one who can exalt God. That is ridiculous.

“that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

So in the name of Jesus (our savior) we bow in respect because of his willing sacrifice on our behalf. We acknowledge him as our “Lord” (a title of respect, not deity) and agree that all the things Jesus said and did was “to the glory of God the Father”....never to his own glory, which was to be restored to him upon his return to heaven. (John 17:5, 11, 24)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Ephesians 1, Christ is far above all created things for all ages now and to come, which shows Christ is not a created being.
When it says the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, that shows the distinctness of the Godhead. That there exists both as God, the Lord Jesus Christ and God, but not separate 'gods'.

Revelation 3:14....
“....These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God”.

Colossians 1:12-17....
“giving thanks unto the Father, who made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love; in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins: who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.”

Let’s explore this other one you quoted too then....Ephesians 1:15-23...

“15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him (Christ and God), 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.”

When it says....
“that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him (Christ and God)”
Do you see what I see? If Jesus is God, how does he have a God? How is this proving that God is a trinity? Who is identified as the God of our Lord Jesus? And the acknowledgment in brackets, is not in the scripture, but placed there to indicate something that is not said.

What is “God’s mighty power” if not the Holy Spirit that raised Christ from the dead?
Was Jesus said to be at God’s right hand before his earthly mission? How else was he exalted?
And how does he have “all things put under his feet and to be head over all things to the church” if he is God. The Supreme one is already over all things.

Jesus said that “all authority has been given to me”....(Matthew 28:18) So how does God need authority to be “given” to him by his equal self?

Sorry, but none of what you have said is supported by the scripture you used. It is pure indoctrinated nonsense IMO.

 

[David H.]

Your analogy is comical.....and childish.
At least the properties of water make sense scientifically.....but even three forms of water do not make God into a threesome, especially when there is not a single statement in the scriptures to the effect that God is not what he says he is....and what Jesus taught him to be......“one” not “three”.

Comical, yes it was intended to be so. But it is more than adequate to explain how the trinity is ot the same as a triad. The fact that you have no rational competency to see how you are falsely accusing trinitarians of teaching a triad of Gods, shows how blind you are.

That is what you might want to believe but is it what scripture teaches?
If you cannot produce scripture that proves by direct statement that God is a trinity, then you are reading into scripture what you want it to say......the Jews never accepted that God was three and still don’t. (Deuteronomy 6:4)
Since Jesus was Jewish and never once said he was God, where on earth do you think the idea of a trinity came from? It is as pagan as immortality of the soul and hellfire.....which makes up Christendom’s very own trinity. These were introduced into an apostate church centuries after Jesus’ death. A little research will reveal this.

We Here have given you hundreds of scriptures to prove the trinity, You just do not want to see them, because you are busy following teachings of men.

All you are doing is kicking at the pricks if you think you will convince any otherwise, for it is the Holy Ghost that confirms the deity of Christ to us, The Holy Ghost being God with us.

That is because there is not one single verse in all of scripture where Jesus or his God claim equality with the Holy Spirit, or with each other.

Let's explore this since you do not believe the Holy Ghost is God either with a scripture that confirms he is God. This one is rather simple and straight forwrd.

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. (Acts 5:3-4)

You see in the words of Peter, The Holy Ghost is God..... But of course, you will come up with some semantic game to explain the plain language here away, or say it is a "translation error" Which it is not because if the Holy Spirit is God then there would have to be a "diunity" at the very least that you would have to admit to. But we know there is trinity because we see this trinity in Genesis 1, God the Father, the Word, and the Spirit above the waters, hence what John wrote in John 1:1. What was that first WORD? "Let there be Light" What did Jesus say he was, "I AM the light of the world".

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

 

[David H.]

You who are pointing fingers.

Ahem! Actually it is you who are falsely accusing trinitarians of preaching a triad because you cannot grasp the difference between the trinity and a triad. You have called me childish, deceived, promoting heresy, etc.... As the old saying goes it takes two to tango, so stop trying play victim and deal with the facts presented.

 

[David H.]

The phrase " God the Son" isn't in any of the manuscripts. By mistake it was put in a medieval manuscript, MS No.1985 where Galatians 2:20 has "Son of God" it was mistakenly changed to, "God the Son." John the Baptist didn't call Jesus, "God the Son" but instead called him the "Son of God." Jesus himself said he was the "Son of God," not "God the Son."
One thing I have learned in my research concerning the scriptures is that there are many different Bibles and in certain scriptures they don't translate them quite the same. That's why so many people speak out against a new version of he Bible. Some Bibles such as, Common English Bible, The Complete Jewish Bible, Good News Translation, Mechanical English Bible has son in brackets after the word son, New Century Bible, New Revised Standard, Revised standard Version, The Emphatic Diaglott, The Emphasized Bible, Schonfield at Acts 20:28 say purchased with the blood of his own Son.
At Zechariah 12:10 As far as literal piercing is concerned, this occurred in the case of Christ Jesus, and at John 19:37 the prophecy of Zechariah 12:10 is quoted and applied to Jesus: “They will look upon the one whom they pierced.” (NW) They did not literally pierce God, who was in heaven and to whom Jesus spoke when he was on the torture stake. (Matt. 27:46; Luke 23:46) God could not die, and then resurrect himself. (Ps. 90:2) Jesus Christ was Jehovah’s representative who became “the exact representation of his very being”, in piercing Jesus they could be said to be piercing Jehovah. (Heb. 1:3, NW) When sending out his followers to preach Jesus said: “He that receives you receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth.” (Matt. 10:40, NW) This shows that in receiving Jesus we receive Jehovah who sent him. In like manner, to pierce Jesus is to pierce Jehovah who sent him. It does not prove Jesus and Jehovah are one, any more than it proves Jesus and his followers are literally one. In another case Jehovah showed that to reject his representative is to reject Him. When Samuel was Jehovah’s appointed judge over Israel the people came requesting a king instead of a judge. Samuel was displeased when they said: “Give us a king to judge us.” But Jehovah told Samuel: “They have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me.” (1 Sam. 8:4-7, AS) In rejecting Jehovah’s representative they rejected Jehovah, in effect; but this did not make Samuel one with Jehovah in a trinity.

You Know Barney, I once had a JW come to my door and I refused to let her use the New World translation and gave her a KJV to defend herself with.... She left speechless, and they never came to my door again.

I say this not to brag, But to show you that the Spirit is not there, and once the watchtower writings are taken away, many cannot defend themselves and think on their own two feet.

 

[David H.]

You Know Barney, I once had a JW come to my door and I refused to let her use the New World translation and gave her a KJV to defend herself with.... She left speechless, and they never came to my door again.

I say this not to brag, But to show you that the Spirit is not there, and once the watchtower writings are taken away, many cannot defend themselves and think on their own two feet.

@BARNEY BRIGHT
That is why I do not even bother responding to some here, because all they do is copy and paste watchtower sites and cannot think for themselves.... It is quite sad actually.

 

[Scott Downey]

But that could not possibly apply to trinitarians....could it? You who are pointing fingers....how many are pointed back at yourselves?


No it doesn’t. It says that Christ existed in God’s form....so what “form” does God have?

Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the well....
“Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You people worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, because salvation is from the Jews. But a time is coming—and now is here —when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be his worshipers. God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:21-24 - NET)

According to Jesus, God is in “spirit” form as are all who inhabit the spirit realm. So Jesus too was in spirit form before his earthly mission and returned there. (1 Peter 3:18) The angels too are spirits. (Hebrews 1:14)


I think you are inventing your own truth now.....

If Christ had claimed to be God, he would have been committing blasphemy and the Jews would have had proof and a legal reason to put him to death under their law......but since Christ (which means “anointed one”) was only ever claiming to be “the Son of God”, (never "God the Son") no blasphemy was committed. He had to die as an innocent man.
The Jews wanted an excuse to put him to death, but he committed no crime. Never once did he claim equality with his God and Father.


They did not dare to question him because they could not defeat his argument.
David called the coming Messiah his “Lord”....but did that make him God?

In the Hebrew scripture you quoted there, the Tanakh has the divine name, which reads....
“Yahweh said to my Lord”.....and if you check with reputable translations you will see that one “LORD” is capitalised (indicating Yahweh) and the other is not, to distinguish which “Lord” is being spoken about.
You really need to do some Bible study....the title "Lord" does not necessarily mean "God".


This is a favourite of mine.....super obvious eh? let's see....

The translation you used is terrible....very pro-trinitarian.

The ASV renders this passage more correctly in line with the Greek.....lets take it apart bit by bit....

“Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped”
So equality with God was NOT something to be grasped....hence Jesus never even suggested such a thing.

“but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, becoming obedient even unto death, yea, the death of the cross.”

So the pre-human Jesus, “emptied himself” of his glorious spirit body and willingly took the form of a human servant and “obediently” followed his plotted course to his death.
Who was Jesus being obedient to?
Is one part of God subservient to his equal self? Why does God need to obey God?
If Jesus was "fully man and fully God" as most trinitarians believe, then how can that be true?

“Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name”

God highly exalted his equal self? How is that possible? And how does God give himself a name that is higher than the one he already has? (Psalm 83:18)
In the Bible, God has many titles but only one name.....Jesus OTOH, has many names and many titles depending on the role he is playing. So the superior Father can exalt his son to a higher position and with a new name to his credit. (Revelation 3:12) But there is no one who can exalt God. That is ridiculous.

“that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

So in the name of Jesus (our savior) we bow in respect because of his willing sacrifice on our behalf. We acknowledge him as our “Lord” (a title of respect, not deity) and agree that all the things Jesus said and did was “to the glory of God the Father”....never to his own glory, which was to be restored to him upon his return to heaven. (John 17:5, 11, 24)

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[Wrangler]

In the Hebrew scripture you quoted there, the Tanakh has the divine name, which reads....
“Yahweh said to my Lord”.....and if you check with reputable translations you will see that one “LORD” is capitalised (indicating Yahweh) and the other is not, to distinguish which “Lord” is being spoken about.
You really need to do some Bible study....the title "Lord" does not necessarily mean "God".

Sadly, some know this but push the false equality to advance their doctrine. Biblegateway reads LORD but when copied and pasted, pastes as lowercase deception, lord.

For others, LORD and lord is an eye opener.

 

[Scott Downey]

The phrase " God the Son" isn't in any of the manuscripts. By mistake it was put in a medieval manuscript, MS No.1985 where Galatians 2:20 has "Son of God" it was mistakenly changed to, "God the Son." John the Baptist didn't call Jesus, "God the Son" but instead called him the "Son of God." Jesus himself said he was the "Son of God," not "God the Son."
One thing I have learned in my research concerning the scriptures is that there are many different Bibles and in certain scriptures they don't translate them quite the same. That's why so many people speak out against a new version of he Bible. Some Bibles such as, Common English Bible, The Complete Jewish Bible, Good News Translation, Mechanical English Bible has son in brackets after the word son, New Century Bible, New Revised Standard, Revised standard Version, The Emphatic Diaglott, The Emphasized Bible, Schonfield at Acts 20:28 say purchased with the blood of his own Son.
At Zechariah 12:10 As far as literal piercing is concerned, this occurred in the case of Christ Jesus, and at John 19:37 the prophecy of Zechariah 12:10 is quoted and applied to Jesus: “They will look upon the one whom they pierced.” (NW) They did not literally pierce God, who was in heaven and to whom Jesus spoke when he was on the torture stake. (Matt. 27:46; Luke 23:46) God could not die, and then resurrect himself. (Ps. 90:2) Jesus Christ was Jehovah’s representative who became “the exact representation of his very being”, in piercing Jesus they could be said to be piercing Jehovah. (Heb. 1:3, NW) When sending out his followers to preach Jesus said: “He that receives you receives me also, and he that receives me receives him also that sent me forth.” (Matt. 10:40, NW) This shows that in receiving Jesus we receive Jehovah who sent him. In like manner, to pierce Jesus is to pierce Jehovah who sent him. It does not prove Jesus and Jehovah are one, any more than it proves Jesus and his followers are literally one. In another case Jehovah showed that to reject his representative is to reject Him. When Samuel was Jehovah’s appointed judge over Israel the people came requesting a king instead of a judge. Samuel was displeased when they said: “Give us a king to judge us.” But Jehovah told Samuel: “They have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me.” (1 Sam. 8:4-7, AS) In rejecting Jehovah’s representative they rejected Jehovah, in effect; but this did not make Samuel one with Jehovah in a trinity.

you said,
"They did not literally pierce God, who was in heaven and to whom Jesus spoke when he was on the torture stake. (Matt. 27:46; Luke 23:46) God could not die, and then resurrect himself."

Sure God could die if he was incarnated as a flesh and blood body. The body dies, not the spirit. This is who Jesus was when He was born as a baby, he had a flesh and blood body.

TORTURE STAKE?? no it was the cross. The cross is mentioned many times in scripture. He was hung on a cross pierced thru his hands and feet, not impaled.

Having a flesh and blood body that could die was important for the Christ to have to be the Savior, for without the shedding of blood, as in resulting in death of the sacrifice, there is no forgiveness of sins.

And in Hebrews 2
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

 

[Wrangler]

God could die

If God is dead, then there is no hope, no salvation and this life is it.

God is eternal but Jesus died. This is how we KNOW he is not God.

 

[Scott Downey]

If God is dead, then there is no hope, no salvation and this life is it.

God is eternal but Jesus died. This is how we KNOW he is not God.

Jesus is in the form of God and equal with God.
Your not a believer in Jesus Christ, some other false christ for sure, because you do not acknowledge Him at all and do not abide in the doctrine of the Father and the Son.
Here it is exactly written in scripture what I am telling you and the others.

Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus is in the form of God and equal with God.

I just proved he is not equal to God.

God is Spirit. Jesus was a man.

No one has seen God. Many thousands saw Jesus.

God raised Jesus from the dead. God did not die and cannot die.

 

[David H.]

I just proved he is not equal to God.

God is Spirit. Jesus was a man.

No one has seen God. Many thousands saw Jesus.

God raised Jesus from the dead. God did not die and cannot die.

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:18

What did Jesus say to make the Jews say he was saying he was equal to God? He was Proclaiming himself Lord of the Sabbath, and he works because His Father works (John 5:17)

You see, by saying God was His Father he was saying he was God.... We who believe are not Sons (Capital S) but sons (small s) by adoption by the Blood of God that has purchased us (Acts of the Apostles 20:28)