Understanding the Trinity.

[Scott Downey]

Jesus here is talking to people who do not know who HE IS.
IF YOU DO NOT KNOW HIM, who He IS, then you also do NOT know the Father who sent HIM.

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 8
14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. 15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. 17 It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”

19 Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?”

Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”

21 Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”

22 So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”
-------------------------------------------------------------

23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”

And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”

27 They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.
-------------------------------------------------------------
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have [n]seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

 

[Scott Downey]

48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”

49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”

52 Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”

54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This has been thoroughly explained already on this and other threads.
This is a prophesy regarding the Messiah that the nation of Israel was expecting, and these are the roles that he would play in that capacity.....

So this “Son” was expected to be fully human....which Jesus was.

The “government” or the rulership of his kingdom, was to rest on his shoulders as King.

His titles....
“Wonderful Counselor”.....meant that his counsel would be superlative, and these are recorded in God’s word for our benefit now, and as our king will continue to provide his wonderful counsel into the future.

“Mighty God” was a reference to his divine authorisation, since the judges in Israel were also referred to as “gods”, (not that they were worshipped, but that they were acting representatively for God). He is referred to as “mighty” but not “Almighty”.....only Yahweh is ever referred to as “Almighty”.

“Everlasting Father” indicates his role as “life-giver”....as his sacrifice would give everlasting life to all redeemed mankind.

“Prince of Peace”.....a Prince is the son of a King, who is given rulership by his Father to rule in his Kingdom, bringing the human race back to God’s original purpose for mankind.....everlasting life in paradise on earth. He did not create us to go to heaven.

Those who continue to cling to false assumptions fed to them by Christendom’s apostate churches who defected centuries ago and introduced all manner of pagan concepts, will never see the big picture and appreciate why God could never become a human and die.

Yahweh is immortal and therefore cannot die. He “sent” his Son to fulfill that role, transferring his lifeforce from heaven to impregnate the woman he chose to give birth to him and to raise this precious son who would put everything to right, here on earth. Their expectations were totally fueled by their interpretation of the limited information that they had at that time. Add to that Paul’s mention of the “sacred mystery”, (Colossians 1:26) meaning that new information would be provided as the need to know became apparent.

This “Messiah” was never to be viewed as God incarnate, but as the one who would introduce the rulership of God’s Kingdom, and restore Israel to his favour.....they believed this kingdom and it’s king to be entirely earthly. The Jews had no concept of going to heaven, even as Jesus was ascending to heaven they showed that they had not clearly understood his words concerning their role in heaven, (Acts 1:6) but as the Holy Spirit revealed more details at Pentecost, they got to appreciate more about the operation of God’s kingdom from heaven over the earth.

Those who have been sold the trinity and who feel that their destiny is in heaven, have not understood the Bible’s message at all...so anything we say that interferes with these expectations are comparable to the Pharisees teaching their charges that Jesus was not the Messiah because he did not fulfill their expectations....not that he did not fulfill the scriptures written about him. We know that he did.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You Know Barney, I once had a JW come to my door and I refused to let her use the New World translation and gave her a KJV to defend herself with.... She left speechless, and they never came to my door again.

I say this not to brag, But to show you that the Spirit is not there, and once the watchtower writings are taken away, many cannot defend themselves and think on their own two feet.

Now this really made me laugh.....

When I was first introduced to the Bible and asked by the Witnesses if I wanted to study it, I insisted that I use my own KJV so I knew that what I was learning was true. The Witnesses used their NWT and I read every scripture from the KJV, so I heard both versions. I had trouble understanding the archaic English and was impressed that the NWT rendered the scripture correctly and in easy to understand English. I never found that there was a clear departure from the basic truths I was learning. The departures I found in the KJV later, when my studies became more in depth, getting into the original language meanings of words used in the Bible. Most people never bother to study what they are taught....or to check with the concordances as to what Hebrew and Greek expressions meant originally. It is very revealing.

Your story here tells me that you likely misinterpreted this sister’s actions. When we encounter people like you who have a closed mindset and are not really interested in hearing anything we have to say, regardless of the translation, we are instructed by Jesus himself to “shake the dust off” and move on. (Matthew 10:11-14)

If the encounter was hostile or gave no indication of any positive response, then that is probably why they did not come back...you were actually a waste of their time. Sorry to burst your bragging bubble....

 

[Curtis]

So recently, it seems we have a lot of just terrible doctrine about the Trinity on here. And while i understand that it can be a confusing doctrine for over thinkers, i do believe its a necessary doctrine for salvation. To help those confused with it, i thought i’d help explain it.

the WCF has this to say about the Trinity;
“ In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.”

so what does this mean?? Well, heres what john calvin had to say;
“We believe and worship the one God whom Scripture proclaims to us. We also conceive Him as He is described to us there, namely of eternal, infinite, and spiritual essence, who alone has the power to subsist in Himself and from Himself, and who bestows it on all creatures. We reject the Anthropomorphites with their corporeal God and the Manicheans with their two gods. Instead, we acknowledge, in the one essence of God, the Father together with His eternal Word and Spirit. When we use this distinction of names, we do not imagine three gods, as if the Father were something other than the Word. In addition, we do not understand these as empty epithets, by the operations of which God is described in different ways. But together with the ecclesiastical writers, in the most simple unity of God, we think that these are three persons [hypostases], that is, substances[subsistentias] that nevertheless consist of one essence [essentia] but are not mingled with each other. And so although there is one God, the Father together with His Word and Spirit, the Father is nevertheless not the Word nor is the Spirit the Word Himself. And the firm testimonies of Scripture are found to support this way of thinking.

still confused?? Lets try this;
“The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.”

“There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.”

i know this is long winded, but i hope it helps.

It’s adding to the scripture to claim belief in the trinity is required for salvation, or that belief Jesus is God is required.

That the Godhead is a triune one, and that Jesus is God the son, are both biblical fact - BUT belief in that isn’t a salvational requirement.

All they have to understand and believe is that Jesus is the son of God, per Jesus Himself in John 3, per Romans 10, per Peters confession that Jesus is the son of God, Mathew 16:16, per 1 John 4:14-15, etc.

 

[Wrangler]

Sure God could die if he was incarnated as a flesh and blood body. The body dies, not the spirit.

Nowhere does the Bible qualify Jesus' death in this manner. It says he died, this means fully died like all men die. The Spirit is God, the Father's Spirit.

 

[Curtis]

Watchtower-ites love to claim that Jesus is nowhere said to be the Almighty in scripture.

Absolutely wrong.

Jesus Himself says He’s almighty, in revelation 1.

John hears a voice speaking, who says He’s the alpha and omega, the first and last, who is, and was, and IS TO COME, THE ALMIGHTY verse 8, and in verse 11 repeats that He’s the alpha and omega, first and last.

John looks to see who’s speaking, and it’s Jesus.

Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Jesus repeats again that He’s the first and the last, and that HE WAS DEAD but now lives forever. irrefutably proving it is Jesus who’s speaking to John.

Additionally, Jehovah is called the mighty God many times in scripture - thus Jesus being the mighty God in Isaiah, does NOT mean He’s not divinity.

Deu 7:21 Thou shalt not be affrighted at them: for the LORD thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible.

Psa 50:1 A Psalm of Asaph. The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.

Hab 1:12 Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

To review, Jesus calls Himself the Almighty, and Jehovah is also called the mighty God in scripture - thus both Jesus and Jehovah are the mighty God, and both are the Almighty.

Another watchtower claim is refuted.

 

[Curtis]

Nowhere does the Bible qualify Jesus' death in this manner. It says he died, this means fully died like all men die. The Spirit is God, the Father's Spirit.

Jesus existed as God the word from the beginning, and as God, He was a spirit, just like Jehovah is a spirit, and angels are spirits with no physical bodies, are.

When Jesus became fully man and fully God, Colossians 2:9, His spirit began to dwell in a mortal body. When the body died for 3 days, His spirit left the body, just as ours does at death, then returned to it three days later.

There are two kinds of death in scripture- separation of the soul from God due to sin, Ephesians 2:1, they used to be dead, but not physically. They were spiritually dead aka separated from Gods presence.

The second death is being separated from God forever in the lake of fire.

Scripture says when Jesus died He descended into the KARDIA, heart, middle, of the esrth and preached to OT spirits in prison.

But that’s another JW error, denying hell is a literal place in the earth, and not the grave.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus existed as God the word from the beginning

Nowhere is this in Scripture.[/QUOTE]

Let me explain something to you. Words have meaning. Son's from from their Father's. The Bible explicitly says the Father alone is God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Now think about it this way, it is not all that abstract.
Man is spirit, soul, and body. 3 parts to make the whole individual man, who is also all of one being.
God is Christ (the incarnation of the body), Father (the soul or mind of the LORD GOD) Holy Ghost (Spirit of the Lord), 3 parts to make the whole God, they are all of one being.
The creation of man also shows the Trinity.

Well, actually the Jewish interpretation of "body, soul and spirit" is vastly different from Christendom's version of what they mean.

To a Jew, (all the first Christians were Jewish) the "body" was the physical housing, the "soul" was the "life" that the soul experienced (the expression "my soul" in the OT was actually referring to my "self") and the "spirit" was the breath in the lungs that kept the souls alive....Adam "became" a "soul" when God started him breathing......so all three were entirely physical. No trinity there either.....sorry.

Humans have no advantage over the animals, as we breathe the same air and die the same death as they do. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) Animals are called "souls" in Genesis...having the same "spirit" means the same breath. These are not promised heaven or even everlasting life. So Christendom's interpretations are bogus adoptions from pagan beliefs that were introduced so long ago, that no one even questions them. Its the heretics pointing fingers at the ones they are accusing of heresy.

Christ is the only form of God that become incarnate, meaning God gave to Him a body.

God's "form" is that he is a "spirit".....so the "spirit" being that was the pre-human Jesus resided in heaven with all the other spirit "sons of God" and his lifeforce was implanted in the womb of Mary to become the only other earthly "son of God" who was human and sinless. (Luke 3:38) This was because Jesus came to offer his 'sinless life' for the 'sinless life' Adam took away from all his children. That was the price of redemption....like for like. Its why Jesus had to come from outside the now flawed human race...but you knew that, right?

You know your opinion of the Trinity goes against the entire church of many centuries time as a strange doctrine and heresy.

The teaching of the trinity actually "goes against the entire church.....as a strange doctrine and heresy", but unless you know what the Jews believed and what Jesus and his apostles actually taught, you would be like all the other deceived individuals who have swallowed this doctrine that Christ never mentioned. Why do you suppose that "few" are on the road to life? (Matthew 7:13-14) The "many" are described by Jesus as those he "never knew"......"never" means "not ever". (Matthew 7:21-23) How are these 'Christians' not 'known' by Christ and called "workers of lawlessness"? Whose laws are they breaking? (Exodus 20:3)

Think about it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Watchtower-ites love to claim that Jesus is nowhere said to be the Almighty in scripture.

Absolutely wrong.

Jesus Himself says He’s almighty, in revelation 1.

John hears a voice speaking, who says He’s the alpha and omega, the first and last, who is, and was, and IS TO COME, THE ALMIGHTY verse 8, and in verse 11 repeats that He’s the alpha and omega, first and last.

John looks to see who’s speaking, and it’s Jesus.

The Revelation is given by God....to Jesus...to an angel...and then to John. There is a chain of command here right in verse 1.

Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Jesus repeats again that He’s the first and the last, and that HE WAS DEAD but now lives forever. irrefutably proving it is Jesus who’s speaking to John.

So what does the designation "alpha and omega" mean? These are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. And they simply mean "the first and the last" without defining what they are 'first and last' of......so this title can apply to both Jesus and his Father in a number of ways.....can this title apply to the holy spirit? Where does it say that?

Additionally, Jehovah is called the mighty God many times in scripture - thus Jesus being the mighty God in Isaiah, does NOT mean He’s not divinity.

Deu 7:21 Thou shalt not be affrighted at them: for the LORD thy God is among you, a mighty God and terrible.

Psa 50:1 A Psalm of Asaph. The mighty God, even the LORD, hath spoken, and called the earth from the rising of the sun unto the going down thereof.

Hab 1:12 Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

What does the word "mighty" mean?
Dictionary definition....."strong, powerful, robust, vigorous, sturdy, courageous, valiant, valorous, bold, able, capable"
So can this word "mighty" be applied to both God and Christ? Absolutely!.....but can the word "Almighty" apply to both?

Definition of Almighty..."having complete power; omnipotent."
Scripture shows that Christ is not omnipotent. He needs God's spirit to accomplish God's will, not his own.....and he needs authorization from his Father to fulfill his various roles. (Matthew 28:18) His God even gives him new names. (Revelation 3:12)
Jesus is never said to be omnipotent.

Is the holy spirit ever said to be omnipotent?

To review, Jesus calls Himself the Almighty, and Jehovah is also called the mighty God in scripture - thus both Jesus and Jehovah are the mighty God, and both are the Almighty.

Another watchtower claim is refuted.

No, sorry...you are apparently really bad at deduction......you missed by a long shot....

 

[tigger 2]

Curtis wrote (#307):

“John hears a voice speaking, who says He’s the alpha and omega, the first and last, who is, and was, and IS TO COME, THE ALMIGHTY verse 8, and in verse 11 repeats that He’s the alpha and omega, first and last.

“John looks to see who’s speaking, and it’s Jesus.

”Rev 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

”Rev 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.”

….……………………………………………….

There are only three places in the entire Bible where the title "Alpha and Omega" is used: Rev. 1:8; Rev. 21:6; Rev. 22:13. "Alpha and Omega" as found at Rev. 1:11 in the KJV and NKJV is recognized as spurious by most knowledgeable modern Bible scholars.

Rev. 1:8 is God speaking. Jesus is never called by the title ‘Alpha and Omega’ (that’s why earlier trinitarian copyists had to add their version of Rev. 1:11). Jesus is never called ‘Almighty.’

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus existed as God the word from the beginning, and as God, He was a spirit, just like Jehovah is a spirit, and angels are spirits with no physical bodies, are.

When Jesus became fully man and fully God, Colossians 2:9, His spirit began to dwell in a mortal body. When the body died for 3 days, His spirit left the body, just as ours does at death, then returned to it three days later.

I hope you understand that the word "godhead" does not exist in any passage of scripture.
In Greek this is "theotēs" which linguists believe means "deity" (related to "theos") and is used only once in all of the Greek text.
Only the KJV and its copiers render it "godhead". Its an invented word.

Other Bibles render it...
"All the fullness of deity lives in Christ’s body." (CEB)
"For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ" (CSB)
"For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily". (ESV)
"For all the fullness of God’s being dwells bodily in Christ."(EHV)
"For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ" (HCSB)

And nowhere does the Bible say that Jesus' spirit left his body and returned 3 days later....where do you get this stuff?
Jesus was "dead" in his tomb for 3 days. He did not go anywhere any more than Jonah left the belly of the fish to go somewhere else. (Matthew 16:4; Matthew 12:38-40)

The "spirits in prison" were the disobedient angels who materialized in Noah's day and were placed under restraint in "Tartarus"....not a literal place but a condition where sanctions were imposed. There is no record of them ever materializing again. That was the catalyst for the flood, which eliminated their violent offspring from existence and sent their errant fathers back to the spirit realm where God dealt with them....but he did not eliminate the devil or his demons.....they were allowed to continue their assault on humanity, just not in physical form. Do you know why? What did the flood accomplish?

There are two kinds of death in scripture- separation of the soul from God due to sin, Ephesians 2:1, they used to be dead, but not physically. They were spiritually dead aka separated from Gods presence.

This applies to all who are naturally separated from God due to inherited sin. Jesus' sacrifice makes forgiveness possible, but sin's wages still apply. We all still die. Having Jesus as our Mediator means that communication with God is still possible even in our sinful state. Jesus' sacrifice guarantees a resurrection for both the "righteous and the unrighteous". (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15) Some will survive the end of this present world system and have the privilege of never dying at all.

The second death is being separated from God forever in the lake of fire.

The "second death" is a death from which no resurrection is possible. Only the incorrigibly "wicked" will be cast into "Gehenna"....like the Pharisees.
No one is alive in that place. Jesus said it is a place where God "destroys body and soul". (Matthew 10:28)

Scripture says when Jesus died He descended into the KARDIA, heart, middle, of the esrth and preached to OT spirits in prison.

But that’s another JW error, denying hell is a literal place in the earth, and not the grave.

No sorry, it doesn't. "Hell" in the Bible is the Greek "hades" which correlates to "sheol" in Hebrew. What did the Jews believe about "sheol"?
Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10....
"For the living know that they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor do they have a reward any longer, for their memory is forgotten. 6 Indeed their love, their hate, and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun. . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity, planning, knowledge, or wisdom in Sheol where you are going."

Read that carefully because this is what the ancient Jews believed, as opposed to the latter ones who adopted belief in an immortal soul from the Greeks. Christendom did too. The dead were not conscious.....they did not have any thoughts, plans or activities.....not even any love or hate.....and no zeal!....how can that be if they are with God and Jesus?

"Hades" is not the "lake of fire"......"Gehenna" is the "lake of fire". When you have these words incorrectly translated as "hell", no wonder people get confused.

Whatever goes into this symbolic "lake", never comes out...."death and hades" are also thrown in there....so it is not a literal place. (Revelation 20:13-14)

Whoever believes that God needs to torture people after they die, just does not know God at all.
When Israel had fallen into false worship and were sacrificing their children in the fire to Molech, at the very site called the valley of Hinnom, (Gehenna) God said....
"They have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of Ben-hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, and it did not come into My mind." (Jeremiah 7:31)

If such a thing had never been commanded or had ever come into God's mind, where does the notion of a fiery hell come from? Certainly not the Bible. But look in false religion and you will see that they all have belief in an immortal soul as well as their own version of hell.

Have you been hoodwinked? We certainly do not worship the same God as you do......thankfully.

 

[Pierac]

Jesus is in the form of God and equal with God.
Your not a believer in Jesus Christ, some other false christ for sure, because you do not acknowledge Him at all and do not abide in the doctrine of the Father and the Son.
Here it is exactly written in scripture what I am telling you and the others.

Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Spoken like a child... whom does not even understand that... He is showing scripture... that goes against his Church's written/documented beliefs.
Allow me to show you...

Who is the one that says Jesus Christ "did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself (v. 6-7). It is unfortunate that the Old King James version of the Bible translated this verse completely wrong. It reads that Jesus "thought it not robbery to be equal with God" and gives the impression that as the preexistent God, Jesus did not think there was anything wrong in being considered equal with God.

It ought to be clear by now that this is the exact opposite of what is meant. The whole context of the passage is about being humble, putting God's will and glory first, and serving others’ interest above one's own interest. Although he was in "the form of God" Jesus did not reckon his God-given status as something to be exploited.

This meaning contrast well with the conduct of Adam who unfortunately did consider equality with God anything to be grasped at. Adam wanted to be like God as Genesis 3:5 teaches. Adam tried to grasp at equality with God. But Jesus would not usurp God's authority for selfish advantage. He said, "I came to serve" (Matt. 20:28), not to snatch! At his arrest in the garden, he said, "Do you not think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and He will at once put at my disposal more than 12 legions of angels?" (Matthew 26:53). As the Messiah, God's appointed King, he had every right to call for divine protection. He "emptied himself" of all such Messianic privileges.


Therefore, it can be categorically stated that Philippians 2: 5-11 has nothing to do with Jesus Christ being God in a preexistence state. The importance is really very simple and very practical: how are Christians to conduct themselves in this world? Not by imitating the man Adam who forfeited everything by a grab for power and glory, but by imitating Jesus the Messiah (v.5) who through humility and obedience to God gained it all and more. After all, if Jesus was already God, then verses 9 to 11 are nonsensical. There is no "Therefore also God highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth." If he was already God, he had this before his birth! No. It is clear that God has given him a new position, a new name (authority), and a new rank that he did not previously possess.

The Greek is very clear here: dio kai means (as in Luke 1:35) "for this reason precisely." Why has God exalted Jesus to His right hand? "Therefore, God has highly exalted him and given him the name above every other name because he is back where he was before as God"? Not at all! He is given the status as a reward for the precise reason that he humbled himself and died. His exalted status is a reward. If we follow the last Adam's pattern, we too will be exalted by God when Christ returns. It is evident, then, that "this hymn does not contained what numerous interpreters seek and find in it: an independent statement about preexistence or even a Christology preexistence… No preexistence of Christ before the world with an independent significance can be recognized even in Philippians 2.

This is the creed of ALL Orthodox Christian Beliefs! All of them!

DEFINITION OF THE COUNCIL OF CHALCEDON (451 AD)

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

So pay close attention Scott.... The Kenotic Doctrine claims that Jesus emptied himself of his deity. Well, you can simply read in the Chalcedon Creed that it defines Jesus’ nature as fully God and fully man at all times, without division, without separation. You cannot say that you believe in the Trinity and use this excuse. If you subscribe to the Kenotic Doctrine, then you have already rejected the Trinity. You cannot be both.

 

[David H.]

Now this really made me laugh.....

When I was first introduced to the Bible and asked by the Witnesses if I wanted to study it, I insisted that I use my own KJV so I knew that what I was learning was true. The Witnesses used their NWT and I read every scripture from the KJV, so I heard both versions. I had trouble understanding the archaic English and was impressed that the NWT rendered the scripture correctly and in easy to understand English. I never found that there was a clear departure from the basic truths I was learning. The departures I found in the KJV later, when my studies became more in depth, getting into the original language meanings of words used in the Bible. Most people never bother to study what they are taught....or to check with the concordances as to what Hebrew and Greek expressions meant originally. It is very revealing.

Your story here tells me that you likely misinterpreted this sister’s actions. When we encounter people like you who have a closed mindset and are not really interested in hearing anything we have to say, regardless of the translation, we are instructed by Jesus himself to “shake the dust off” and move on. (Matthew 10:11-14)

If the encounter was hostile or gave no indication of any positive response, then that is probably why they did not come back...you were actually a waste of their time. Sorry to burst your bragging bubble....

The encounter was not hostile in the least. It lasted about 15 minutes, and scriptures were presented.... the thing is once she did not have the watchtower teachings she could not react, because I used scriptures that are not commonly used to defend the trinity.

For example, in Isaiah Jehovah says, "my Glory I will not give to another". Yet in the high priestly prayer Jesus speaks of returning to the glory he had before. It is a contradiction that forces the Jehovah's Witness to admit that Jesus was a usurper of God's glory if he was not God Himself. It is something that SHOULD make you rethink your teaching, But most are so indoctrinated by the Watchtower society and the manipulation they use to control their followers. That is what I mean about thinking for yourself. A JW is not allowed to do this and when they do they lose their status as elders in the Church.... I Know this is true because I have known several former J.W.'s.

Submitting to the LORD is the most liberating thing a person can do, not a binding thing, Jw's live their lives bound to the creeds and doctrines passed down to them by the watchtower society. Free thought is not allowed, conformity is the rule. This is why all the denominationalism in the church is a "Good thing", Because it shows that there is freedom of thought and not a forced conformity to the Christian faith. The Unity of the Spirit will come eventually to the church but this will come of the Spirits doing and moving, not forced conformity.

I do admire the JW's for their zeal, but it is a zeal built on fear and conformity to the edicts of the Watchtower society... Much like Saul/Paul was zealous in his hunting down and persecuting Christians for the Jewish religion(Acts 22:3-4). God uses Love to motivate us and the immensity of that Love is expressed in the fact that the creator died for His creation and shed His own blood to redeem us.... Amazing Love.... It is this love that motivates and moves us to do his will, and to submit to His will, not fear and manipulation. We then become the vessels of His love for the world to reach those who are lost. In Other words, we Love Him, because he first loved us....

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us. (1 John 4:18-19)

 

[Aunty Jane]

The encounter was not hostile in the least. It lasted about 15 minutes, and scriptures were presented.... the thing is once she did not have the watchtower teachings she could not react, because I used scriptures that are not commonly used to defend the trinity.

You know, when we are given unfamiliar scriptures, presented in an unfamiliar Bible, (or even an incomprehensible one like the KJV) and the person bringing things to our attention is genuine, we usually ask if its OK to do some research and get back to them.

Let me give you what I might have found out....

For example, in Isaiah Jehovah says, "my Glory I will not give to another". Yet in the high priestly prayer Jesus speaks of returning to the glory he had before. It is a contradiction that forces the Jehovah's Witness to admit that Jesus was a usurper of God's glory if he was not God Himself. It is something that SHOULD make you rethink your teaching

Wow....you never considered that all spirit creatures are glorious? Glory is not something reserved for God alone. Satan actually rebelled because he got carried away with his own magnificence. (Ezekiel 28:13-15)
You don't do much study, do you? That is an incredibly weak argument.

When Jesus said...."And now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created." (NET)
Jesus had his own glory at his Father's side before the world of mankind was created.....God did not need to share his glory with his son because he had his own. Humans can give God glory....(Matthew 5:16)....so what do you think it means?

But most are so indoctrinated by the Watchtower society and the manipulation they use to control their followers. That is what I mean about thinking for yourself. A JW is not allowed to do this and when they do they lose their status as elders in the Church.... I Know this is true because I have known several former J.W.'s.

Oh, now I understand.....you take all your queues from ex-Witnesses? One side of a story.....I get it. But you couldn't be indoctrinated though, could you?

That is utter baloney. The only way to "lose status" in our organization is to imagine that you had any to begin with. Positions in our brotherhood are positions of service, and those who want to "think for themselves" and sway others to their own inflated opinions, do not belong in our organization. 1 Corinthians 1:10 says that true Christians will "all speak in agreement with no divisions"...that is a standard we maintain because that is what Christ taught. If anyone wants to introduce his own ideas we do what 2 John 10-11 says....
"If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house and do not give him any greeting, 11 because the person who gives him a greeting shares in his evil deeds."

People get kicked out because they are either unrepentant sinners, or trouble makers who want to cause division in our ranks by promoting their own version of things......we don't need people like that, so we are glad to be rid of them. When they don't get their own way, they like to get even by spreading lies about us to justify themselves, but if you want to believe them, that is up to you.....as you judge so shall you be judged....remember? You never heard the other side of the story, did you?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Submitting to the LORD is the most liberating thing a person can do, not a binding thing, Jw's live their lives bound to the creeds and doctrines passed down to them by the watchtower society. Free thought is not allowed, conformity is the rule. This is why all the denominationalism in the church is a "Good thing", Because it shows that there is freedom of thought and not a forced conformity to the Christian faith. The Unity of the Spirit will come eventually to the church but this will come of the Spirits doing and moving, not forced conformity.

That is a joke...right? Where is the Biblical precedent for freedom of thought? Denominationalism is another name for division.
There was to be "no divisions".....it is a sign that Christianity is fractured.....how many fractures do you think there are? Are they all right? What if they are all wrong? Majority rules do not apply in Christianity otherwise the broad road would be the one leading to life.....(Matthew 7:13-14)

I do admire the JW's for their zeal, but it is a zeal built on fear and conformity to the edicts of the Watchtower society... Much like Saul/Paul was zealous in his hunting down and persecuting Christians for the Jewish religion(Acts 22:3-4). God uses Love to motivate us and the immensity of that Love is expressed in the fact that the creator died for His creation and shed His own blood to redeem us.... Amazing Love.... It is this love that motivates and moves us to do his will, and to submit to His will, not fear and manipulation. We then become the vessels of His love for the world to reach those who are lost. In Other words, we Love Him, because he first loved us....

Nice sermon...wasted on me I'm afraid. I was raised in Christendom so I have been on both sides of this story.....I know what I believe and why I believe it, and where to find it in God's word. You might remember the apostle John's words in John 10:34-35....?
“I give you a new commandment—to love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 Everyone will know by this that you are my disciples—if you have love for one another.”

How is "love for one another" shown?
Take for example the history of the church in this regard. In the two world wars of last century, Christendom's churches were in the thick of it, sanctioning the bloodshed and even killing members of their own church who happened to be on the opposing side. Can you tell which side God was on when Jesus taught us to "love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you". (Matthew 5:44)
Have you ever read Isaiah where God's words to his people still apply....
"When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I look the other way;
when you offer your many prayers,
I do not listen,
because your hands are covered with blood." (Isaiah 1:15)
Even today, the clergy are in the armed forces salving consciences and telling sweet lies that God sanctions political wars and conflicts. But Jesus said that his disciples were to be "NO PART of the WORLD"....'on this account the world would hate them'. (John 15:18-21) There are no true Christians in the military. A Christian could not even train to kill another.

Romans 12:17-21...
"Do not repay anyone evil for evil; consider what is good before all people. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all people. Do not avenge yourselves, dear friends, but give place to God’s wrath, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 Rather, if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in doing this you will be heaping burning coals on his head. 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

I know who needs to rethink their teachings...

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us. (1 John 4:18-19)

What makes you think we have fear? I have been a JW for 50 years and have experienced only love...never fear. The only time we need to fear is if we have offended God by our beliefs and conduct. Christendom has way more to be ashamed of than we do. Her track record is appalling.

You cannot defend Christendom's churches to me because I know exactly what they teach, and I know exactly how hypocritical they are....and you know what?.....so does God.

 

[JohnPaul]

The encounter was not hostile in the least. It lasted about 15 minutes, and scriptures were presented.... the thing is once she did not have the watchtower teachings she could not react, because I used scriptures that are not commonly used to defend the trinity.

For example, in Isaiah Jehovah says, "my Glory I will not give to another". Yet in the high priestly prayer Jesus speaks of returning to the glory he had before. It is a contradiction that forces the Jehovah's Witness to admit that Jesus was a usurper of God's glory if he was not God Himself. It is something that SHOULD make you rethink your teaching, But most are so indoctrinated by the Watchtower society and the manipulation they use to control their followers. That is what I mean about thinking for yourself. A JW is not allowed to do this and when they do they lose their status as elders in the Church.... I Know this is true because I have known several former J.W.'s.

Submitting to the LORD is the most liberating thing a person can do, not a binding thing, Jw's live their lives bound to the creeds and doctrines passed down to them by the watchtower society. Free thought is not allowed, conformity is the rule. This is why all the denominationalism in the church is a "Good thing", Because it shows that there is freedom of thought and not a forced conformity to the Christian faith. The Unity of the Spirit will come eventually to the church but this will come of the Spirits doing and moving, not forced conformity.

I do admire the JW's for their zeal, but it is a zeal built on fear and conformity to the edicts of the Watchtower society... Much like Saul/Paul was zealous in his hunting down and persecuting Christians for the Jewish religion(Acts 22:3-4). God uses Love to motivate us and the immensity of that Love is expressed in the fact that the creator died for His creation and shed His own blood to redeem us.... Amazing Love.... It is this love that motivates and moves us to do his will, and to submit to His will, not fear and manipulation. We then become the vessels of His love for the world to reach those who are lost. In Other words, we Love Him, because he first loved us....

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us. (1 John 4:18-19)

Is there freedom of thought in the RCC and no forced conformity to their rules and laws? Lest you not follow them you'll be excommunicated, doesn't sound like too much freedom there as for the other denominations I do not know as I was only part of the RCC.

 

[Scott Downey]

It’s adding to the scripture to claim belief in the trinity is required for salvation, or that belief Jesus is God is required.

That the Godhead is a triune one, and that Jesus is God the son, are both biblical fact - BUT belief in that isn’t a salvational requirement.

All they have to understand and believe is that Jesus is the son of God, per Jesus Himself in John 3, per Romans 10, per Peters confession that Jesus is the son of God, Mathew 16:16, per 1 John 4:14-15, etc.

Jehovah Witness, do not recognize Christ nor do they worship Christ as Lord, they are not saved. To them Christ is only a man, a person God created. Michael the archangel incarnated as a man, Michael being the first created being is who Jesus is to them. The Question for Jehovah’s Witnesses: Who Is Jesus?

If Jesus is the Son of God, then He is equal with God.
God calls Himself 'I Am' Jesus also call Himself 'I Am'

Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

Mark 12
35 Then Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the temple, “How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit:

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ’

Romans 10, People who are confessing He is God's Christ are those who believe that he is not just a man God highly exalted, But that He is the Christ of God.

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Jehovah Witness, do not recognize Christ nor do they worship Christ as Lord, they are not saved.

Matthew 10
32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.
33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

People who deny who Christ is, are not saved.

Matthew 13, everywhere Christ says He is the son of God, He makes Himself equal with God, yet as a distinct person in the form of God

13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”

14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

So when Christ says this, He is identifying Himself as equal with God who is His Father.

Mark 8:38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

The Son of MAN was never an archangel-angel, Hebrews 1

 

[Scott Downey]

It’s adding to the scripture to claim belief in the trinity is required for salvation, or that belief Jesus is God is required.

That the Godhead is a triune one, and that Jesus is God the son, are both biblical fact - BUT belief in that isn’t a salvational requirement.

All they have to understand and believe is that Jesus is the son of God, per Jesus Himself in John 3, per Romans 10, per Peters confession that Jesus is the son of God, Mathew 16:16, per 1 John 4:14-15, etc.

You may like this in confirming the JW are not saved
Worship Jesus Worship God Deity of Christ

Jesus and the Father are both equally worshiped at the same time in Heaven by all of his creation:
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped. (Rev 5:11-14)

Hence, Jesus is worshiped in the presence of the Father and in the same way that the Father is worshiped. Not only that, but it also says every creature is praising the Father and Jesus, thereby excluding Jesus from the created class, since he can't be praising himself! That means Jesus is not Michael the archangel, as some were wrongly taught.

etc...