Understanding the Trinity.

[Scott Downey]

Revelation 1, Jesus is the First and the Last, or Alpha and Omega, beginning and ending

12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. 19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. 20 The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches.

AND From the start of the chapter 1 this

7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Revelation 22, Jesus is the First and Last, Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End, the Almighty, just as Revelation 1 states.

Those who take away from that, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.

9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” 10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

Jesus Testifies to the Churches
12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

A Warning
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[David H.]

Wow....you never considered that all spirit creatures are glorious?

"MY GLORY I WILL NOT GIVE TO ANOTHER..." You missed the whole point of the argument.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (John 17:5)

That is utter baloney. The only way to "lose status" in our organization is to imagine that you had any to begin with. Positions in our brotherhood are positions of service, and those who want to "think for themselves" and sway others to their own inflated opinions, do not belong in our organization. 1 Corinthians 1:10 says that true Christians will "all speak in agreement with no divisions"...that is a standard we maintain because that is what Christ taught. If anyone wants to introduce his own ideas we do what 2 John 10-11 says....
"If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house and do not give him any greeting, 11 because the person who gives him a greeting shares in his evil deeds."

People get kicked out because they are either unrepentant sinners, or trouble makers who want to cause division in our ranks by promoting their own version of things......we don't need people like that, so we are glad to be rid of them. When they don't get their own way, they like to get even by spreading lies about us to justify themselves, but if you want to believe them, that is up to you.....as you judge so shall you be judged....remember? You never heard the other side of the story, did you?

This is exactly my point (See emboldened text above).... Let us say that someone has a different eschatology than the Watchtower society teaches....they try to teach what they are seeing in the Word of God and they are labeled a troublemaker and silenced or even excommunicated.

For example, the 144,000 are said to be of the twelve tribes of Israel and virgin males. Is this an actual description or symbolic? Some say it is an actual description of the 144k others say it is symbolic of the church and the virginity is symbolic of their devotion to the church.... what have you. The watchtower has its own interpretation of this, and to question their interpretation os to be considered a "troublemaker".

The true church is made up of many parts of the body not just one. The church is not all "hands", But feet and ears and eyes (See I Corinthians 12). There will be differences within the Body until the time the unity of the Spirit comes (Ephesians 4:11-16) and that Body is joined together as one. This is what I mean about denominationalism being a "good thing". Yes there are many problems with denominationalism but this is how God designed his church. He knew the nature of man and that the doctrines of men would lead to division, But he used this that in fellowship we would learn and know more of Christ, for we all Know in Part. This division was allowed for that we would learn to love one another with a brotherly Love.

Oh, now I understand.....you take all your queues from ex-Witnesses? One side of a story.....I get it.

Actually, no, I have attended a Jehovah's witness' church, read the watchtowers and spoken face to face with the elders in an interview format. They are very much like the Baptists in the church I grew up in, but something was missing. That something is the Love of God.

 

[David H.]

Is there freedom of thought in the RCC and no forced conformity to their rules and laws? Lest you not follow them you'll be excommunicated, doesn't sound like too much freedom there as for the other denominations I do not know as I was only part of the RCC.

You're looking at a fraction of the church if you are looking at the RCC. Read my comment above.... God knew men would cause divisions in the church, and he accounted for this when he designed the church, and used this as a means of teaching those who are his to mature and grow as they learned to love one another.

I can call a Calvinist a brother even though i am what one would call an Armenian, I can call a Wesleyan a Brother even though I am Baptist, I can call a charismatic a Brother even though I am a fundamentalist..... Some are still stuck in the denominational immaturity, and following the teachings of those men and doctrines they are following, I still love them even though I may disagree with them..... We all know in part and when maturity comes we begin to ask what truth does my brother have that I may learn more of the fulness of Christ. The truth, when we are mature enough to receive it, Unifies, not divides.

 

[Scott Downey]

Witnessing to Jehovah’s Witnesses - what is the key? | GotQuestions.org

example, does this sound Christian to you?

Jehovah’s Witnesses say they are the only true Christians, but they are neither Protestant nor Catholic. The fundamental doctrinal issue that distinguishes them from orthodox Christianity is the Trinity. They say the doctrine of the Trinity is a pagan teaching, but they misrepresent it, saying that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit must be three gods. They actually agree with the Trinity doctrine when it says that the Father and the Son are two Persons, but they imagine they need to prove this to Trinitarians. They fail to grasp how the three Persons comprise the One Being of God, and so they come up with the idea of a Big God and a little god—two gods. They say Jesus was created (Arianism), that He was Michael the archangel, and that Jesus’ body was not resurrected; it simply disappeared and He rose as a spirit creature. They say the Holy Spirit is not a person but is Jehovah’s active force or energy.

Because they say that Jesus is a demi-god, their understanding of salvation and atonement is wrong. They say Jesus, who was a perfect Man, died only to atone for the sin of Adam and that, when we die, our death pays the penalty of our own sin. Only some 10,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses today can possibly claim to be born again and have a heavenly hope. The rest say they don’t want to go to heaven to be with the Lord but they want to live forever on a paradise earth (Restorationism). They believe if they remain faithful and obedient till the end of the Millennial Reign of Christ Jesus, they will earn the right to be declared righteous, and that’s why they have to keep on striving, with no assurance of salvation.

 

[Curtis]

You may like this in confirming the JW are not saved
Worship Jesus Worship God Deity of Christ

Jesus and the Father are both equally worshiped at the same time in Heaven by all of his creation:
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped. (Rev 5:11-14)

Hence, Jesus is worshiped in the presence of the Father and in the same way that the Father is worshiped. Not only that, but it also says every creature is praising the Father and Jesus, thereby excluding Jesus from the created class, since he can't be praising himself! That means Jesus is not Michael the archangel, as some were wrongly taught.

etc...

The fact that Jesus is God the son is irrelevant to the salvational criteria the scriptures give - which is belief Jesus is the Son of God - even Peter the apostle confessed the belief that Jesus is the Sin of God, when Jesus asked him who he thought Jesus was - and Jesus commended him for it, and did not correct him by telling Peter he must belief He is God.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Let’s not add to the scriptures a salvation criteria that’s not there, by confusing the fact of Jesus’ divinity with what must be believed for salvation.

 

[Keiw]

So recently, it seems we have a lot of just terrible doctrine about the Trinity on here. And while i understand that it can be a confusing doctrine for over thinkers, i do believe its a necessary doctrine for salvation. To help those confused with it, i thought i’d help explain it.

the WCF has this to say about the Trinity;
“ In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.”

so what does this mean?? Well, heres what john calvin had to say;
“We believe and worship the one God whom Scripture proclaims to us. We also conceive Him as He is described to us there, namely of eternal, infinite, and spiritual essence, who alone has the power to subsist in Himself and from Himself, and who bestows it on all creatures. We reject the Anthropomorphites with their corporeal God and the Manicheans with their two gods. Instead, we acknowledge, in the one essence of God, the Father together with His eternal Word and Spirit. When we use this distinction of names, we do not imagine three gods, as if the Father were something other than the Word. In addition, we do not understand these as empty epithets, by the operations of which God is described in different ways. But together with the ecclesiastical writers, in the most simple unity of God, we think that these are three persons [hypostases], that is, substances[subsistentias] that nevertheless consist of one essence [essentia] but are not mingled with each other. And so although there is one God, the Father together with His Word and Spirit, the Father is nevertheless not the Word nor is the Spirit the Word Himself. And the firm testimonies of Scripture are found to support this way of thinking.

still confused?? Lets try this;
“The most difficult thing about the Christian concept of the Trinity is that there is no way to perfectly and completely understand it. The Trinity is a concept that is impossible for any human being to fully understand, let alone explain. God is infinitely greater than we are; therefore, we should not expect to be able to fully understand Him. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.”

“There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.”

i know this is long winded, but i hope it helps.

Its proven fact. the trinity was created at a council of catholicism near the end of the 4th century. It does not exist.

 

[Curtis]

Witnessing to Jehovah’s Witnesses - what is the key? | GotQuestions.org

example, does this sound Christian to you?

Jehovah’s Witnesses say they are the only true Christians, but they are neither Protestant nor Catholic. The fundamental doctrinal issue that distinguishes them from orthodox Christianity is the Trinity. They say the doctrine of the Trinity is a pagan teaching, but they misrepresent it, saying that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit must be three gods. They actually agree with the Trinity doctrine when it says that the Father and the Son are two Persons, but they imagine they need to prove this to Trinitarians. They fail to grasp how the three Persons comprise the One Being of God, and so they come up with the idea of a Big God and a little god—two gods. They say Jesus was created (Arianism), that He was Michael the archangel, and that Jesus’ body was not resurrected; it simply disappeared and He rose as a spirit creature. They say the Holy Spirit is not a person but is Jehovah’s active force or energy.

Because they say that Jesus is a demi-god, their understanding of salvation and atonement is wrong. They say Jesus, who was a perfect Man, died only to atone for the sin of Adam and that, when we die, our death pays the penalty of our own sin. Only some 10,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses today can possibly claim to be born again and have a heavenly hope. The rest say they don’t want to go to heaven to be with the Lord but they want to live forever on a paradise earth (Restorationism). They believe if they remain faithful and obedient till the end of the Millennial Reign of Christ Jesus, they will earn the right to be declared righteous, and that’s why they have to keep on striving, with no assurance of salvation.

That there will be a kingdom on earth forever is one of the few things they got right.

JWs can’t be saved because they deny the bodily resurrection of Christ, a required salvational belief per Romans 10:8-13 - and by definition, resurrection means bodily rising from the dead - there’s no such thing as spiritual resurrection, because our spirit is immortal, and at physical death, our spirit goes either to paradise with Jesus, 2 Corinthians 5, or to hell to await judgment.

 

[Curtis]

Its proven fact. the trinity was created at a council of catholicism near the end of the 4th century. It does not exist.

They affirmed the trinity in a council, they didn’t invent it, since it’s in scripture.

 

[Keiw]

They affirmed the trinity in a council, they didn’t invent it, since it’s in scripture.

I started a thread about that today. true God worship history.

 

[Keiw]

That there will be a kingdom on earth forever is one of the few things they got right.

JWs can’t be saved because they deny the bodily resurrection of Christ, a required salvational belief per Romans 10:8-13 - and by definition, resurrection means bodily rising from the dead - there’s no such thing as spiritual resurrection, because our spirit is immortal, and at physical death, our spirit goes either to paradise with Jesus, 2 Corinthians 5, or to hell to await judgment.

Peter said he was killed in the flesh and raised in the spirit- 1Peter3:18-- Peter the cornerstone of Jesus religion--your teaching is calling him a liar? Wow your whole post is false. Its called dogma. it will not stand.

 

[Curtis]

Wow....you never considered that all spirit creatures are glorious? Glory is not something reserved for God alone. Satan actually rebelled because he got carried away with his own magnificence. (Ezekiel 28:13-15)
You don't do much study, do you? That is an incredibly weak argument.

When Jesus said...."And now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created." (NET)
Jesus had his own glory at his Father's side before the world of mankind was created.....God did not need to share his glory with his son because he had his own. Humans can give God glory....(Matthew 5:16)....so what do you think it means?

You’re the one with a weak defense of JW error.

God dwells in glory that only God has, and says He won’t share that glory with another- if God’s glory was merely what all those in His creation has, it would be redundant to say He won’t give His glory to anyone else, because they already have it.

DUH!

 

[Keiw]

You’re the one with a weak defense of JW error.

God dwells in glory that only God has, and says He won’t share that glory with another- if God’s glory was merely what all those in His creation has, it would be redundant to say He won’t give His glory to anyone else, because they already have it.

DUH!

The Jw,s arent in error--The house divided that will not stand are the ones in error. They cant even understand this simple bible milk-1Cor 1:10-- unity of thought( all of Gods truth) no division. God requires one to serve him in spirit and truth( John 4:22-24)

 

[Curtis]

Peter said he was killed in the flesh and raised in the spirit- 1Peter3:18-- Peter the cornerstone of Jesus religion--your teaching is calling him a liar? Wow your whole post is false. Its called dogma. it will not stand.

You have no clue what being raised in the spirit means - a spirit body isn’t an invisible ghost, but has flesh and bone:

Scripture says that flesh and blood bodies can’t inherit the kingdom:


1Co 15:50 Now this is what I am saying, brothers and sisters: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

But Jesus rose in a body of flesh and bone - no blood - and Paul makes clear that we will be like Him.

(In fact the apostles thought Jesus’ risen body was a spirit, but He set them straight):


Luk 24:36 While they were saying these things, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”


Luk 24:37 But they were startled and terrified, thinking they saw a ghost.


Luk 24:38 Then he said to them, “Why are you frightened, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?


Luk 24:39 Look at my hands and my feet; it’s me! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones like you see I have.”

His body is now flesh and bone, not flesh and BLOOD.

You claim Jesus is now a ghost - the apostles ignorantly thought He was a ghost, but zjesus corrected them, but you won’t believe Jesus’ own words - you believe the watchtower over Jesus!


And Paul makes clear we shall be like the resurrected Jesus is now:


1Jn 3:2 Dear friends, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him


Philippians 3:21 (NET)


21 who will transform these humble bodies of ours into the likeness of his glorious body by means of that power by which he is able to subject all things to himself.


1 Corinthians 15 thus is NOT saying that our new bodies will be nebulous and non-corporeal spirits, like a ghost - but that our new bodies won’t be mortal bodies that need to breathe, or that needs blood in them.


1. Jesus did not rise as a ghostly spirit, but has a body of flesh and bone.


2. Our resurrected bodies will be just like His - flesh and bone.

 

[Scott Downey]

The fact that Jesus is God the son is irrelevant to the salvational criteria the scriptures give - which is belief Jesus is the Son of God - even Peter the apostle confessed the belief that Jesus is the Sin of God, when Jesus asked him who he thought Jesus was - and Jesus commended him for it, and did not correct him by telling Peter he must belief He is God.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Let’s not add to the scriptures a salvation criteria that’s not there, by confusing the fact of Jesus’ divinity with what must be believed for salvation.

JW's don't believe God raised Christ from the dead, true that disqualifies them for salvation.
They also do not Believe Jesus Christ is LORD, also disqualifies them.

All the NT verses describing Christ as Lord acknowledge He is God the Son, they don't believe that. The believe Christ was a created person. They do not worship Christ.
This is not a concept being added to the scriptures.

The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name’s sake. ...

 

[Curtis]

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house and do not give him any greeting, 11 because the person who gives him a greeting shares in his evil deeds."

Which is why I don’t let Jehovah’s Witnesses in my house.

 

[Scott Downey]

Example, Jesus Christ is Lord God. Same theme in Romans 10 about being saved.

Matthew 4:6-8
New King James Version
6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:

‘He shall give His angels charge over you,’

and,

‘In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’ ”

7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’ ”

 

[Curtis]

JW's don't believe God raised Christ from the dead, true that disqualifies them for salvation.
They also do not Believe Jesus Christ is LORD, also disqualifies them.

All the NT verses describing Christ as Lord acknowledge He is God the Son, they don't believe that. The believe Christ was a created person. They do not worship Christ.
This is not a concept being added to the scriptures.

The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name’s sake. ...

It is adding to the scriptures (that say that belief He is Gods SON is required), when you rewrite them to say belief He is GOD is required.

Thats not a hard concept to understand.

Do not add to the scriptures.

Understanding that He is God comes after salvation, not before.

Try all you want, but you cannot escape the fact that Peter confessed to Jesus that he is the son of God when Jesus specifically asked him who he thought he was, and Jesus commanded him for it.

If what you claim was true, Jesus would have corrected him and admonished him, that he must believe he is God. This clearly did not happen.

Paul told new believers that they are on milk, but need to get off the milk and into the meat of doctrine, yet you are demanding that before they are even a believer they must be on meat, and skip the milk completely.

That Jesus is God is deep understanding of the Scriptures, but God does not require such deep understanding to be saved, but only the understanding that Jesus is the son of God, and I gave the relevant scriptures earlier that all say belief in God‘s son is required, including Jesus himself in John three.

 

[Curtis]

Example, Jesus Christ is Lord God. Same theme in Romans 10 about being saved.

Matthew 4:6-8
New King James Version
6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:

‘He shall give His angels charge over you,’

and,

‘In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’ ”

7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’ ”

Unlike the Old Testament were YHWH is translated as LORD - in the New Testament where it says Lord, it’s the word KURIOS, which means master, not Yahweh.

Thus Romans 10 does not say that you must believe Jesus is God, when it says you must believe Jesus is Lord.

You are missing the point completely - scripture says Jesus is divinity, but that is not a required salvational belief, get it?

Therefore you can quote scriptures that prove Jesus is God until the cows come home, it still doesn’t change the fact that to be saved you only have to understand and believe that Jesus is the son of God.

Do not add to the scriptures.

 

[Curtis]

JW's don't believe God raised Christ from the dead, true that disqualifies them for salvation.
They also do not Believe Jesus Christ is LORD, also disqualifies them.

All the NT verses describing Christ as Lord acknowledge He is God the Son, they don't believe that. The believe Christ was a created person. They do not worship Christ.
This is not a concept being added to the scriptures.

The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me to lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside the still waters. He restores my soul; He leads me in the paths of righteousness For His name’s sake. ...

Once again, in the Old Testament they wrote YHWH as LORD, in all caps, but in the New Testament where it writes ‘Lord’ without using all caps, it is the Greek word KURiOS which means master, not Yahweh.

Therefore when Romans 10 says you must believe in the Lord Jesus, that is not demanding you believe he is God Jesus.