since the bible is perfect

[amadeus]

i would be happy if you were even in the ballpark of being right about the Trinity. You deny the Trinity, that is reallllly bad. Everyone has some bad theology, but the Trinity is not the place to be foing that.

You should read more carefully. I have never denied the Trinity. Neither have I embraced it as no one has given me a good reason to do so! I do not serve God because of what main-stream churches say nor because of what any man says. I serve Him because I love Him.

For more than 20 years on forums I have read the explanations of many different people for and against the Trinity. I have discussed or debated the issue. I have studied the Bible on the subject myself. I have spent a lot of time talking to God about it. He has not directed me to any Trinity either.

We do live for God by faith rather than by absolute knowledge. There is knowledge, but what man is able to separate the things believed from the things known? If we are sincere in our walk with God and if we need to change something, will God not so direct us?

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

You should read more carefully. I have never denied the Trinity. Neither have I embraced it as no one has given me a good reason to do so! I do not serve God because of what main-stream churches say nor because of what any man says. I serve Him because I love Him.

For more than 20 years on forums I have read the explanations of many different people for and against the Trinity. I have discussed or debated the issue. I have studied the Bible on the subject myself. I have spent a lot of time talking to God about it. He has not directed me to any Trinity either.

We do live for God by faith rather than by absolute knowledge. There is knowledge, but what man is able to separate the things believed from the things known? If we are sincere in our walk with God and if we need to change something, will God not so direct us?

1. The Trinity is spoken a lot in the Bible.
2. How do you know God isnt trying to tell you through this forum, this conversation that you should believe in the Trinity? God uses people to spread His message. I think thats what im doing right now.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

you are right
some YES
some NO
some NOT SURE
some YES but they thought they knew but were not

it's like practice makes perfect

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Job 2:6-7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

who was with God in the beginning?
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Colossians 1:16-18
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Philippians 2:6-9
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

so is the holy spirit a God?
where in the word of God that the holy spirit is a God?

1 Corinthians 2:11-13
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

We were discussing that you do not believe in the Trinity. So now you quote John 1:1 that the Word was not only God, but with God. So do you believe in a duelty?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It does not--those would-be contradictions are only due to misunderstandings.

And errors are only due to "confusion" placed upon all language by God at Babel.

CHuckle!! SO God placed "confusion" into HIS OWN WORD????

Why do you suppose He did that???

 

[amadeus]

1. The Trinity is spoken a lot in the Bible.

I think not. I have reading the Bible in three languages since 1978 and have yet to see the Trinity in it. I see the verses that Trinitarians have pointed out to me, but I do not see what they say that they see.

2. How do you know God isnt trying to tell you through this forum, this conversation that you should believe in the Trinity? God uses people to spread His message. I think thats what im doing right now.

How do I know? Am I not one of His sheep, who know His voice and follow Him?

Since 2008 I have been on this forum reading what people say. Everything you have said to me has been said by others many times before.

We all need the Truth, and the Truth, as Jesus told us, is Jesus.

If all the people who say they know Jesus, were able to see his face clearly now, would there be disagreements among brothers in Christ, or such a multitude of denominations bearing the Christian label?

It seems not to be "then" yet. If we are "then" on the highway of holiness mentioned by the prophet Isaiah, will we not see Him as He is?

 

[ScottA]

CHuckle!! SO God placed "confusion" into HIS OWN WORD????

Why do you suppose He did that???

"Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth." Genesis 11:7-9​

This has not been rescinded.

Which He has done for two reasons:

1. For the same reason "that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." Romans 11:25 Which has been done against them, but also for us. As the apostle Paul also said, "For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience." Romans 11:30

2. And also, so that the evils of the natural man "cannot inherit the kingdom of God." Therefore, as Jesus said, "The words that I speak to you are spirit." And Paul added, "the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."​

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. 9 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth." Genesis 11:7-9​

This has not been rescinded.

Which He has done for two reasons:

1. For the same reason "that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." Romans 11:25 Which has been done against them, but also for us. As the apostle Paul also said, "For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience." Romans 11:30

2. And also, so that the evils of the natural man "cannot inherit the kingdom of God." Therefore, as Jesus said, "The words that I speak to you are spirit." And Paul added, "the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."​

Unresponsive. Has nothing to do with the existence of contradictions in the Biblical Text. comparisons between "Kings", and "Chronicals" expose quite a few. Many Denominations have added the "Weasel words": "In the original autographs" to their Biblical accuracy proclamations (since the original autographs don't exist to our knowledge, it's a "safe" work-around).

I Agree that destruction of communication IS something the Lord uses to prevent humans from building things that God doesn't want built.

 

[ScottA]

1. The Trinity is spoken a lot in the Bible.
2. How do you know God isnt trying to tell you through this forum, this conversation that you should believe in the Trinity? God uses people to spread His message. I think thats what im doing right now.

I think not. I have reading the Bible in three languages since 1978 and have yet to see the Trinity in it. I see the verses that Trinitarians have pointed out to me, but I do not see what they say that they see.

How do I know? Am I not one of His sheep, who know His voice and follow Him?

Since 2008 I have been on this forum reading what people say. Everything you have said to me has been said by others many times before.

We all need the Truth, and the Truth, as Jesus told us, is Jesus.

If all the people who say they know Jesus, were able to see his face clearly now, would there be disagreements among brothers in Christ, or such a multitude of denominations bearing the Christian label?

It seems not to be "then" yet. If we are "then" on the highway of holiness mentioned by the prophet Isaiah, will we not see Him as He is?

If I did not think that I was among friends here, I would not be so bold (or foolish) as to step in the middle or to appear to take one side or the other to this issue--but I am not taking a side.

Both positions are written. So, no, I am not taking a side...except the side of God whom is One either way.

But do please consider that if Jesus said, "I and the Father are One", and also said "I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—", calling Him "He"-- He is not contradicting Himself, as if one of you were right on His one hand, and the other right on His other. No, but He is right to say both. And He is also right to say what He has that some believe means it is one way, while others believe it means something different. Because it is that something different rather, that is the issue--God is One.

If He has therefore made an issue of His own identity and title--it is an issue worthy of consideration...but not of division or argument, and there is no need for disagreement. Thus, if we believe Him when He says the one point, and also believe Him when He says the other, we have no grounds to disagree with Him, or with each other. By this we know that it is not Him who is wrong to say what He has, but it is us rather who are wrong if we cannot reconcile the two positions which He has both given. It is better to say we don't know. And if we had known, we would not have taken a side, choosing one and not the other.

So then, this issue is an issue to God. And just as we did not know the Son until He was sent, we could not have known the Holy Spirit until He was sent. Even so, God is One.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

the Bible is the inerrant word of God. It is without error in all matters, and is necessary to learn God’s will for us in life.

Normally denominational groups that make that statement, add the "Weasel Words": "In the original Autographs" which, of course we don't have, but which does cover for the inaccuracies in the published Scriptures.

 

[ScottA]

Unresponsive. Has nothing to do with the existence of contradictions in the Biblical Text. comparisons between "Kings", and "Chronicals" expose quite a few. Many Denominations have added the "Weasel words": "In the original autographs" to their Biblical accuracy proclamations (since the original autographs don't exist to our knowledge, it's a "safe" work-around).

I Agree that destruction of communication IS something the Lord uses to prevent humans from building things that God doesn't want built.

You contradict yourself.

First you dismiss my factual explanation citing biblical precedence, just was is the practice of all who are sent. But then you finish with a statement that agrees with that biblical premise, after first dismissing it.

But that is you. I said nothing in error, nor did you even make a case for your own confused position. Please feel free to do so...but so far, you have expressed nothing but a lack of understanding--which is answered in the scriptures:

"My strength is made perfect in weakness.”​

But you, you are apparently unaware of it and unable to answer. If you had been aware, you would have known that those would-be contradictions are not just the folly of men, but also the intentional brilliance of God.

...The question is: Why? ...Why do you cast a shadow on God's word, as if to hold the things of men against Him?

 

[amadeus]

If I did not think that I was among friends here, I would not be so bold (or foolish) as to step in the middle or to appear to take one side or the other to this issue--but I am not taking a side.

And which side is it do you suppose it is that I am on...? I want to be on the Lord's side wherever that really is. I want to be directed to wherever it is that He would lead me. If I have taken a turn or missed a turn which hindered my progress toward Him, I do sincerely ask God to correct me.

Because God has not definitely redirected me, I have stayed still in effect on this issue for a long time now, but most people do not know where I am... although they sometimes believe that they do. They seldom ask me. Rather they are more interested in convincing me of something. I have said many times that God alone give real increases to them or to me.

Which way is up?

Both positions are written. So, no, I am not taking a side...except the side of God whom is One either way.

Give God the glory!

But do please consider that if Jesus said, "I and the Father are One",

And, we...?

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:20-21

and also said "I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—", calling Him "He"-- He is not contradicting Himself, as if one of you were right on His one hand, and the other right on His other. No, but He is right to say both. And He is also right to say what He has that some believe means it is one way, while others believe it means something different. Because it is that something different rather, that is the issue--God is One.

Yes, God is One! I believe that. I believe also that there is a Son of God [Jesus] and that there is a Helper/Comforter. Why do people insist that others put all these beliefs together as they have put them together to form a completed construct of what God is?

If He has therefore made an issue of His own identity and title--it is an issue worthy of consideration...but not of division or argument, and there is no need for disagreement.

Even so! Yes, many of the manifested disagreements among men need not be. Charity/love is expected from each and every believer on either side of this issue (and other issues). I see that God is testing us on this point of charity/love rather than on the correctness of our doctrine/theology/belief.

Thus, if we believe Him when He says the one point, and also believe Him when He says the other, we have no grounds to disagree with Him, or with each other. By this we know that it is not Him who is wrong to say what He has, but it is us rather who are wrong if we cannot reconcile the two positions which He has both given. It is better to say we don't know. And if we had known, we would not have taken a side, choosing one and not the other.

Even so...

So then, this issue is an issue to God. And just as we did not know the Son until He was sent, we could not have known the Holy Spirit until He was sent. Even so, God is One.

Yes, God is One.
To be clear, at this point with what I have understood and understand I cannot be a Trinitarian, but neither can I be a Oneness Jesus Only [as per UPC] as I was once taught to be. What am I? God knows and He cares. Who else really cares? Does it matter?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Why do you cast a shadow on God's word,

I don't, of course. God's Word is that upon which FAITH is based (Rom 10:17). However the WISDOM to apply God's Word properly is also a gift (james 1:5). The Bible PLUS the enlightening presence of the Holy Spirit leads to TRUTH. However, the Bible in the hands of "skilled Theologians" only leads to all sorts of confusion.

 

[amadeus]

@ScottA
On another issue, I have long thought about some of your thoughts on time and related issues. I have resolved to buy of few books of interest to me when my income tax refund arrives this month.

Your book, "Walking Like Einstein:the greatest spiritual find of our time", will be one of them. I do not expect to be disappointed by it. When it is in my hands and I have read some of it, I would like to interact with you on it, if I may...

 

[ScottA]

And which side is it do you suppose it is that I am on...? I want to be on the Lord's side wherever that really is. I want to be directed to wherever it is that He would lead me. If I have taken a turn or missed a turn which hindered my progress toward Him, I do sincerely ask God to correct me.

Because God has not definitely redirected me, I have stayed still in effect on this issue for a long time now, but most people do not know where I am... although they sometimes believe that they do. They seldom ask me. Rather they are more interested in convincing me of something. I have said many times that God alone give real increases to them or to me. Which way is up?

It seems to me that you do not prescribe to the Trinity doctrine. Is that correct?

And, we...?

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:20-21

Yes, we too, if we are God's, are One with Him.

Yes, God is One! I believe that. I believe also that there is a Son of God [Jesus] and that there is a Helper/Comforter. Why do people insist that others put all these beliefs together as they have put them together to form a completed construct of what God is?

It is the scriptures that refer to Jesus as the Son, but also as One with the Father, and as God.

But there are two things at work in the scriptures:

1) There is the thinking of men at work, even their/our folly.
2) There is also God breaking down and [separating] what is inseparable, for the sake of our elementary understanding, as children slow to learn.​

Yes, God is One.
To be clear, at this point with what I have understood and understand I cannot be a Trinitarian, but neither can I be a Oneness Jesus Only [as per UPC] as I was once taught to be. What am I? God knows and He cares. Who else really cares? Does it matter?

As above, God is inseparably One. Nonetheless, He has revealed each separately giving each the title of God, giving each a Name, and referring to each as "He."

I would suggest that it is not wrong for men to have a doctrine regarding these God given separations of identity--but that it is wrong to keep it. For in doing so, we deny the Oneness of God, whom also first said "Let Us make man in Our image", but then referred to Himself as "I am."

 

[ScottA]

I don't, of course. God's Word is that upon which FAITH is based (Rom 10:17). However the WISDOM to apply God's Word properly is also a gift (james 1:5). The Bible PLUS the enlightening presence of the Holy Spirit leads to TRUTH. However, the Bible in the hands of "skilled Theologians" only leads to all sorts of confusion.

Except, it is not really in their hands.

 

[amadeus]

It seems to me that you do not prescribe to the Trinity doctrine. Is that correct?

I do not!

Yes, we too, if we are God's, are One with Him.
It is the scriptures that refer to Jesus as the Son, but also as One with the Father, and as God.

I agree.

But there are two things at work in the scriptures:

1) There is the thinking of men at work, even their/our folly.
2) There is also God breaking down and [separating] what is inseparable, for the sake of our elementary understanding, as children slow to lean.​

​

Again, I agree!

As above, God is inseparably One. Nonetheless, He has revealed each separately giving each the title of God, giving each a Name, and referring to each as "He."

Perhaps there are even more than three or less depending on who is drawing the lines. In my head there are certainly lines drawn, but I strive not to do that... leaving it in the hands of God. I may have gotten it wrong and be getting it wrong, but God certainly has it right.

I would suggest that it is not wrong for men to have a doctrine regarding these God given separations of identity--but that it is wrong to keep it. For in doing so, we deny the Oneness of God, whom also first said "Let Us make man in Our image", but then referred to Himself as "I am."

Having a definite doctrine is what I strive to avoid. Although because I do have some definite beliefs on the issue, some might call it a doctrine, but I am not inflexible.

Even when I belonged to a particular church group [which I do not now], I was always struggling with or against what they did stand for or against. I am still open to growth.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Except, it is not really in their hands.

Then explain the utter confusion that they cause.

 

[ScottA]

Then explain the utter confusion that they cause.

The scriptures explain: what they "meant for evil, God has meant it for good."

As I said already, this is not unlike the partial blindness put upon Israel, and for the same reason-- "until the fullness of the gentiles has come in."

 

[Abigail]

In reference to why Protestants protested.

Thank you for clearing that up for me.

 

[Abigail]

CHuckle!! SO God placed "confusion" into HIS OWN WORD????

Why do you suppose He did that???

I always wondered why in the Old Testament both God and Satan enlisted king David to take a census.