Amillennialism versus Dispensationalism

[Daniel L.]

Him as being fully man, in whom all sin came

He carried our iniquities, not inside of Him, but on the outside, as one carries a cross on the outside, a point of light surronded by darkness, without any darkness on the inside. So, you still can't have the abomination of desolation on Him, not even in the "human Jesus".

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

-The "Human Jesus" was tempted, proving His humanity, yet there is no sin in Him, as John already told us, but this verse proves there is no sin in the "Human Jesus". So, you cannot have the abomination of desolation standing on neither the natures of Jesus, not even on His Human Nature, because He is Fully Holy, King of Righteousness.

 

[Enoch111]

So, you still can't have the abomination of desolation on Him, not even in the "human Jesus".

You have absolutely no idea of what you are discussing.

 

[ScottA]

He carried our iniquities, not inside of Him, but on the outside, as one carries a cross on the outside, a point of light surronded by darkness, without any darkness on the inside. So, you still can't have the abomination of desolation on Him, not even in the "human Jesus".

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

-The "Human Jesus" was tempted, proving His humanity, yet there is no sin in Him, as John already told us, but this verse proves there is no sin in the "Human Jesus". So, you cannot have the abomination of desolation standing on neither the natures of Jesus, not even on His Human Nature, because He is Fully Holy, King of Righteousness.

The distinction that you are making does not take away the fact that Jesus took the sins upon Himself. He did. And it is He who explained that the virgins who wait for Him do not all qualify, or that He even knows all who take up His Name. Moreover, His own countrymen crucified Him, and those who betray Him are the members of His own household.

But...is there sin in Him, by Him? No.

How then is sin in Him, that abomination that makes desolation? Because He opened the door to it and took it upon Himself...much as you said.

 

[Daniel L.]

He opened the door to it and took it upon Himself.

You have no Scripture to say He opened the door and took sin inside Himself. It is your own understanding. All Scripture testifies there is no sin in Him. Im going to stop arguing with you, because I don't want you to keep blaspheming more and more, trying to fit sin into Jesus. Just know, the "Holy Place" has to be in the world, the only temple that can have sin in it. So the temple cannot be His body who can't have sin in Him, never ever, whatsoever at all, period.

 

[ScottA]

You have no Scripture to say He opened the door and took sin inside Himself. It is your own understanding. All Scripture testifies there is no sin in Him. Im going to stop arguing with you, because I don't want you to keep blaspheming more and more, trying to fit sin into Jesus. Just know, the "Holy Place" has to be in the world, the only temple that can have sin in it. So the temple cannot be His body who can't have sin in Him, never ever, whatsoever at all, period.

I said "upon" Himself, but in that "holy place" (which is in the church in this world) that foreshadows the "Holy Place."

But yes, if we both square off and talk about each of the two sides of the church coming to Christ, as different--they are--as different as heaven and earth...indeed, we will not agree. But I have expressed both sides, and therefore, do not disagree.

 

[Daniel L.]

the church in this world

Not even in the Church in this world can there be any sin, because His Church abides in Him, and He in them:

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

There can not be any sin in the Body of His Church, all the saints who abide in Him can't sin, even tho they are in the world:

John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

The temple cannot be the temple of His Body, nor Church because He is One with the Body of His Church, and abides in all His saints.

John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

 

[ScottA]

Not even in the Church in this world can there be any sin, because His Church abides in Him, and He in them:

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

There can not be any sin in the Body of His Church, all the saints who abide in Him can't sin, even tho they are in the world:

John 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

The temple cannot be the temple of His Body, nor Church because He is One with the Body of His Church, and abides in all His saints.

John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

These things I know, and they are true.

But you are not accounting for that good work that He has begun in some to be finished:

Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ,
To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine making request for you all with joy, for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; just as it is right for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as both in my chains and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers with me of grace. Philippians 1:1-7​

 

[Daniel L.]

He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ

If they are saints they can't have sin in them, because they abide in Him. So he is just refering to the resurection and glorification of their bodies, who is not yet "finished", since they still have to endure to the end, and await for Messiah to gather them.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

"But He was speaking of the temple of His body." John 2:21

Good question!

John 2:21 and Matthew 24:2 have nothing to do with each other.

One is the crucifixion; the other 70 AD.

 

[Jay Ross]

"But He was speaking of the temple of His body." John 2:21


Good question!

John 2:21 and Matthew 24:2 have nothing to do with each other.


One is the crucifixion; the other 70 AD.

John 2:18-22: - 18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, "What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?"

19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

20 Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"

21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.​

What sign did Jesus give first before He said that He would raise up the temple in three days?

Was it not, "If you, the people in the Temple should cause the temple of stone etc. to be destroyed, then I will cause the Temple of God to be raised up in three days in the Lord's timeframe."

It is my understanding that the Jews cause the Temple to be destroyed in 70 AD, by the Romans and if this is true, then Jesus was not talking about Himself or His crucifixion which was imminent, when He gave this prophecy.

John in adding commentary his commentary in verse 21 above, has misled us in writing that Jesus was referring to His own crucifixion, but rather He was referring to the time in Eternity where He will cause the Saint to assemble together to worship God as the Temple of God during the age of eternity. This POV can be found in the contextual use of the Greek word, σώματος, to represent the collective body of believers in many of these verses in this list. John 2:21, Romans 7:4, 7:24, 8:13, 8:23, 1 Corinthians 7:4, 7:4, 10:16, 11:27, 12:12, 12:15, 12:15, 12:16, 12:16, 12:22, 12:23, 2 Corinthians 5:8, 5:10, 10:10, 12:2, 12:3, Ephesians 4:12, 4:16, 5:23, 5:30, Colossians 1:18, 1:24, 2:11, 2:23, Hebrews 10:10, James 2:16, Jude 1:9


Shalom

 

[GEN2REV]

You have absolutely no idea of what you are discussing.

Is anybody here discussing Amil. vs Dispensationalism?

 

[Daniel L.]

Jesus was not talking about Himself or His crucifixion

21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

John in adding commentary his commentary in verse 21 above, has misled us

John is not misleading, he is clarifying.
The only problem with this view is that: you have the abomination of desolation standing in the "Holy Place" later on in prophecy. And if the temple is His Body and His Church of saints, you have sin inside Jesus and His saints, which is blasphemy. In Him there is no darkness, neither in His saints who have the Holy Spirit. The only place the abomination of desolation can stand is in the world, the worldly physical temple in Jerusalem, that was already destroyed, meaning it had to stand there before 70 A.D

 

[marks]

With no land promises left, and no special election for the physical race of Israel, there is no grounds for a special dispensation to the physical residents of the current state of Israel, nor to any physical race of people upon the earth.

Did the sun rise this morning? Since there was a morning, that would be a yes. Have you been to measure the foundations of the earth? I'm going to go out on a limb, and say, no, you have not.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Why would you not think God will keep His promise?

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

If they are saints they can't have sin in them, because they abide in Him. So he is just refering to the resurection and glorification of their bodies, who is not yet "finished", since they still have to endure to the end, and await for Messiah to gather them.

You are not reconciling all scripture...just explaining it away--which does not change the truth. I will explain again:

Just as Jesus is fully man and fully God, I have been expressing both aspects of that in terms of what it means for sin to be "in Christ" in the manner of "abomination standing in the holy place." As such, it is not a legitimate argument to say that Christ is fully God, therefore he can have no sin in Him. This robs Him of His also being fully man. So I reconcile both to tell you--not discuss, that He is both. And if it were not true--then there can not be any abomination in the holy place--and the word is a lie. Your argument saying that it can never be, is against the word of God, for it is written that it is true by that abomination.

So, John was correct there is no sin in Him, and so are you--but only after He has overcome sin "each in his own order" having finished the work once for all. --Even Jesus the Firstfruits was no exception, for He prayed to regain what was lost even to Him, saying, "O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." John 17:5

But you have already denied it and explained it away in your own mind, which many do. Shall we then continue to argue from either side of Christ who imbodies both man and God? Because that argument reconciles nothing--and yet that reconciliation is the complete work of Christ, that He should reconcile evil men to God--and He has already. But, no, that argument is the same that Satan gave in the garden, using only part of what God said, to undo the complete truth in the mind of any who are tempted to believe in the validity of only part.

The only correct answer then, is that this is what makes Jesus fully man and also fully God, in order that there could even or ever be an abomination standing in the holy place.

 

[ScottA]

John 2:18-22: - 18 So the Jews answered and said to Him, "What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?"

19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

20 Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"

21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.​

What sign did Jesus give first before He said that He would raise up the temple in three days?

Was it not, "If you, the people in the Temple should cause the temple of stone etc. to be destroyed, then I will cause the Temple of God to be raised up in three days in the Lord's timeframe."

It is my understanding that the Jews cause the Temple to be destroyed in 70 AD, by the Romans and if this is true, then Jesus was not talking about Himself or His crucifixion which was imminent, when He gave this prophecy.

John in adding commentary his commentary in verse 21 above, has misled us in writing that Jesus was referring to His own crucifixion, but rather He was referring to the time in Eternity where He will cause the Saint to assemble together to worship God as the Temple of God during the age of eternity. This POV can be found in the contextual use of the Greek word, σώματος, to represent the collective body of believers in many of these verses in this list. John 2:21, Romans 7:4, 7:24, 8:13, 8:23, 1 Corinthians 7:4, 7:4, 10:16, 11:27, 12:12, 12:15, 12:15, 12:16, 12:16, 12:22, 12:23, 2 Corinthians 5:8, 5:10, 10:10, 12:2, 12:3, Ephesians 4:12, 4:16, 5:23, 5:30, Colossians 1:18, 1:24, 2:11, 2:23, Hebrews 10:10, James 2:16, Jude 1:9


Shalom

Yes, only One is true while all others only point to the One.

 

[ScottA]

Is anybody here discussing Amil. vs Dispensationalism?

Hahahah... Yeah, I'm not sure I even understand the Original Post idea.

'Isms just seem to be wrong from the start. They are like the books "For Dummies" --what an intro! But I guess the proof is in the fact that people actually buy into it after being insulted--like it was an IQ test, and they failed.

 

[ScottA]

The only place the abomination of desolation can stand is in the world, the worldly physical temple in Jerusalem, that was already destroyed, meaning it had to stand there before 70 A.D

No...the physical worldly temple was only a foreshadowing, and if a foreshadowing and not the actual--then a foreshadowing of Whom?

The scriptures do give the complete answer.

Think it all the way through.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

View attachment 20905

Amillenialism, Covenant theology, dispensational theology et. al. are all man made constructs to try to understand Gods Word. After 47 1/2 years of walking with the Lord and study I have found that dispensationalism, though imperfect does the least harm to scripture than all the rest and relies the least on reinterpretations than do all the other major hermeneutics.

 

[farouk]

Amillenialism, Covenant theology, dispensational theology et. al. are all man made constructs to try to understand Gods Word. After 47 1/2 years of walking with the Lord and study I have found that dispensationalism, though imperfect does the least harm to scripture than all the rest and relies the least on reinterpretations than do all the other major hermeneutics.

@Ronald Nolette Seems to be linked with WHO a passage is speaking about, as well as WHAT. Like, as regards the aspects of the Lord's coming, if the church is supposedly the same as Israel, then ppl's understanding of the aspects of the Lord's coming will likely differ also.

 

[GEN2REV]

Hahahah... Yeah, I'm not sure I even understand the Original Post idea.

'Isms just seem to be wrong from the start. They are like the books "For Dummies" --what an intro! But I guess the proof is in the fact that people actually buy into it after being insulted--like it was an IQ test, and they failed.

A lot of concepts, and traditions, in the church, or Christianity at large, are made out to be more complicated than they really are in a rather successful attempt to withhold power, and knowledge of the Bible, from the common man. Ring any bells? This is a very old tactic used all the way back to the earliest Roman Catholic Church. (Many professions do this as well; medical, mechanical, pharmaceutical, etc.)

Dispensationalism is, in layman's terms, simply the idea/belief that God will 'dispense' specific promises to two different parties at the end of time. The church, or all saved and baptized believers in Christ and God's Word, and the physical nation of Israel.

Is that your basic understanding?

It is very important for Christians to understand this concept because it is what is taught in 99.9% of churches today and less than half of the congregation understand what is being taught, or discussed, when it is presented.

And Amillennialism is the belief that there will be no Millennium time period after Christ's return (Rev. 20) for specific reasons.

I wish some would discuss this topic because it is very important for Christians to understand and/or become familiar with contemplating.