Shalom, veteran.
Retrobyter, on 05 January 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:
Shalom, veteran.
Good. Just so long as we're clear, and you're not trying to paint me as some sort of heathen or something! I'd hate to have to rebuke you.
That spiteful attitude doesn't go along with your "Shalom, veteran" salutation, just so you know.
First, allow me to apologize; my statement “I’d hate to have to rebuke you” was meant as a JOKE! Guess veiled attempts at humor are easily missed in writing. I truly am sorry that you took it for being a “spiteful attitude.” That was certainly NOT my intent. I’m not the greatest user of emoticons, but I probably should have added a smiley face or something.
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28 And don’t fear from the killers of the body but are not empowered to kill the breather; but rather fear the one able to destroy breather and body in the Valley of Hinnowm.
The valley of Hinnowm is just outside of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) in Isra'el even today! This verse is not talking about "hell"; it's talking about the Judgment Seat of the King when He is on the Throne of David during the Kingdom! Thus, the contrast is not between the immaterial and the material parts of a person but rather the natural body that can be relieved of the spirit (breath) and the body that stands before Yeshua` resurrected and permanently intact - a body with the spirit, a breather, a "soul" - as well as those who can still be relieved of their spirits (breaths)!
I'm well aware the Greek word there is a word for the Hebrew valley of Hinnom where fallen Israel sacrificed their children in the fire like a bunch of ignorant pagans, an idea God said didn't even come into His mind. Uh,... that verse IS specifically talking about the "lake of fire" event at the end of Rev.20. That's HOW Christ is representing the valley of Hinnom. In Jer.19 God says one day that valley won't be called Hinnom anymore, but instead "the valley of slaughter"! Why? Because THAT valley of Hinnom fire represents the future "lake of fire" event of Rev.20! How is you have not read that? God also uses the name Tophet for the idea of that "lake of fire" event where the devil will perish (per isaiah 30:33).
Oh, and the devil, Satan, that old serpent, he doesn't have a flesh body. But he has a soul and a spirit, and that's what specifically goes into the "lake of fire". And that's the type burning Christ Jesus is warning of in the Matt.10:28 verse, which again reads...
Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul (Greek psuche) and body in hell (geena from Hebrew for Valley of Hinnom).
(KJV)
Greek psuche = breath, spirit, soul. That's IMMATERIAL matter by the way. Definitely NOT of flesh.
Actually,
Gei-Ben-Hinnowm was already named the “valley of slaughter” (“
Gei-HaHareegah”) for it was there that they sacrificed their children to the god Ba’al, which the true God
YHVH would NEVER have ordered! The sins happened before the captivity back when Ahav (Ahab) was king of the northern kingdom of Isra’el. It is already called “
ha-tofet,” or “the smiting,” for the same reason! It was named that by King Yoshiyahu (Josiah) after they discovered the Torah scroll while repairing the Temple. (2 Kings 23:10) Not everyone at the time felt that way, however, and they chose their sinful ways again after he was no longer king. (2 Kings 23:31-32, 36-37; 24:8-9)
I know that Yirmeyahu’s prophecy came after him, but much of what Yirmeyahu prophesied came to pass IN the captivity! However, it was during His time that the captivity happened and it was then that the captives took their sins to heart … too late, of course. When the captives returned after Cyrus’ Edict of Restoration and saw the valley again, they would forever call that valley those terms in an effort to teach their children. (Neh. 11:30; Zech. 11:4, 7)
Sometimes, prophecies are ALREADY FULFILLED and need not be fulfilled further or again! It would have made better sense to those in THAT time period as a reminder to themselves and their children that such atrocities should never be done again to avoid what they had gone through!
Believe you me, they have NOT forgotten their lesson, and they no longer sacrifice to false gods.
Nevertheless, that valley has traditionally been the place where the king of Isra’el would set up his judgment throne and pronounce sentences. It was more convenient there if someone was to be stoned. That’s where the trash would be dumped and burned, and they could burn their dead bodies there, too.
You’re wrong that this is even about the Lake of Fire and Sulfur! It’s about the King of Isra’el, as were all the subjects when Yeshua` was here the first time! HE will judge throughout the millennium because His Father has committed all judgment to Him. (John 5:22-23; 1 Cor. 15:24-28)
And, how do YOU know that haSatan doesn't have a body? He was called the "original snake!" Don't snakes have bodies?
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There are two points that need to be addressed: First, the difference between "thee" and "you" is the difference between "you singular" and "you plural." This is one of the reasons for adhering to the KJV. Modern versions that have dropped the thee's and thou's no longer make a distinction between the second person singular from the second person plural! That's unfortunate because passages like this can be misunderstood by such negligence.
That's completely irrelevant to the subject of Matt.10:28. You're beating around the bush, which I'm not going to address your later unrelated tirades either.
It’s not irrelevant to the subject; it is pertinent to the subject! The singular, second-person viewpoint of the sentence, “(thou) fear him which is able to destroy both soul (Greek psuche) and body in hell,” forces one to think that each one individually is to fear Him who can destroy “both soul and body” as though each one of us HAS both soul and body.
However, the proper, PLURAL, second-person viewpoint of the sentence, “(YOU; Y’ALL) fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell,” forces one to think that COLLECTIVELY they all should fear Him who can destroy “both soul and body” with the correct understanding that ALL who appear before the King’s judgment seat are either “soul” or “body!” Can you see the difference?
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Nonsense. The Messiah did not contradict the Tanakh (the OT)! Are you meshuggah (crazy)?! Did not the same Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the same Holy Spirit of God) inspire the writing of both, the Tanakh and the B'rit Chadashah (the New Covenant or "NT")? Since when does the Ruach haQodesh contradict Himself?!
You haven't found me saying either of those Eccl.12:5-7 and Matt.10:28 Scriptures contradict each other. Instead, I declared how they support each other, but with Matt.10:28 giving MORE DETAIL of what happens after death of the flesh body. Do you like to create seeming contradictions in discussions with other people?
No, and I haven’t done any such thing. You were suggesting it in YOUR statement, “When God BREATHED the 'breath of life' into dust from the ground, THAT dust was NOT the BREATH (equivalent to Greek psuche for soul). Just like
Eccl.12:5-7 teaches, that at death the flesh body of dust goes BACK to the dust of the earth where... it came from, and the spirit goes back... to God Who gave it.
Thus, thinking that the soul is a by-product of the spirit joined with flesh contradicts what Christ taught about the soul in
Matthew 10:28. It CANNOT be destroyed by flesh death. By that verse a little child can recognize that means that soul part has continued... existence after flesh death! It goes back to God Who GAVE it.”
Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 support Genesis 2:7, but YOU are suggesting that Matthew 10:28 differs from what is taught in Genesis 2:7! It’s not hard; it’s simple:
1. God formed a body (Hebrew:
geviyah = corpse; dead body) out of the dust of the earth.
2. God breathed (Hebrew:
vaayipach = and-he-puffed) into the body the breath of life (Hebrew:
nishmat chayiym = a-puff of-life). He did this by His
Ruach ha-Qodesh, His Holy Wind or Spirit, and…
3. Man became a living soul (Hebrew:
l-nefesh chayah = to-breathing-creature alive).
Body + Breath = Breather!
Body + “Spirit” = “Soul!”
And, Matthew 10:28 is talking about something TOTALLY unrelated!
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The answer to your question is to be found in the definitions of the words you and I use. Since our definitions don't match, the same sentence you read is different from the sentence I read. It's really quite simple: Mankind is not triune. The "soul" (the "breather") is simply the combination of the "body" and the "spirit" (the "breath"):
Genesis 2:7
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV
He wasn't "given" a soul; he BECAME a living soul!
Still can't get around what Jesus said in Matt.10:28 can you, to not fear those who kill the flesh, but cannot kill the psuche (soul - breath). When God BREATHED the "breath of life" into dust from the ground, THAT dust was NOT the BREATH (equivalent to Greek psuche for soul). Just like Eccl.12:5-7 teaches, that at death the flesh body of dust goes BACK to the dust of the earth where... it came from, and the spirit goes back... to God Who gave it.
Thus, thinking that the soul is a by-product of the spirit joined with flesh contradicts what Christ taught about the soul in Matthew 10:28. It CANNOT be destroyed by flesh death. By that verse a little child can recognize that means that soul part has continued... existence after flesh death! It goes back to God Who GAVE it.
Heb 12:9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
(KJV)
That's another one of Paul's comparisons of the difference between flesh and spirit, pointing to two different dimensions of existence.
First, Hebrews MAY have been written by Paul, but it may also have been written by SOMEONE ELSE! Be careful in that matter. We don’t truly know.
Second, Hebrews 12:9 takes on a different flavor when one reads it with a better understanding of the Greek words:
Eita tous men tees sarkos heemoon pateras eichomen paideutas kai enetrepometha; ou polu de mallon hupotageesometha too Patri toon pneumatoon kai zeesomen?
The affirmation follows the flesh of-us/our fathers we-have-had corrected-(us) and we-have-respected-them; but not much rather shall-we-obey the Father of-the breaths and live?
It’s one thing to receive correction from our fleshly fathers; it’s another thing entirely to obey the Father of the breaths who could take away ours, if He so thought it necessary!
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...And yet, the Hebrew word for "heaven" ("shaamaayim") in Genesis 1:1, a dual word btw, not plural which is 3 or more, is the SAME WORD that is used to name the "firmament" ("raaqiya`") in Genesis 1:8, the physical substance that separated the waters above the "firmament" from the waters below the "firmament!"
Pretty obvious not all Bible usage of a word is for the same exact thing, like the idea of the valley of Hinnom for "hell" by Christ Jesus in Matthew 10:28. Thus seeking to always apply the atmospheric sky around the earth as the only meaning for heaven is beyond ignorance.
Yeshua the Messiah didn’t USE Gei-Hinnom for “hell!” He used it for what it was used for, the place of His future JUDGMENT SEAT!
REFUSING to take the word “ouranos” for only the atmospheric sky around the earth is beyond ignorance! Just look at how the word is HIDDEN in meaning in Matthew 16:1 when it is clear that Yeshua` knew what it meant in Matthew 16:2-3!
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Furthermore, a house "not made with hands" is simply a reference to the creative power of God in the Resurrection, who is a Spirit without human hands! It does NOT imply that the house is not material any more than Adam's physical body was implied to be immaterial when God fashioned it out of the dust of the earth!
You're wrong again. Paul is using the idea of house in a metaphorical sense. A whole lot of The Bible is written using real everyday objects in a metaphorical or symbolic sense. Hard to express how much the Bible student would miss by not being able to grasp that fact. Therefore, I think you know better than to treat Paul's usage of a 'house' for an immaterial spiritual body as if he were speaking of some material object. It shows you’re even in denial of the "spiritual body" and "image of the heavenly" concepts which Apostle Paul also taught in 1 Cor.15.
I’m not in any “denial” about a “spiritual” body! I am fully aware of the phrase “
sooma pneumatikos” and understand that this is a physical body able to PUFF the BREATH OF LIFE! It can GIVE LIFE, just as the Last Adam was made a “quickening spirit,” a “life-giving blast” (Greek: “
pneuma zoo-opoioun”)! (And, avoid falling back to that lame excuse of “metaphorical or symbolic sense” that led to an allegorical interpretation of the Bible back in the 200s and 300s A.D! STICK TO THE LITERAL SENSE as often as possible!)
It is YOU who are in denial! Why can’t you accept…
Rom. 8:11
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
KJV
Rom. 8:21-23
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
KJV
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However, you're right about one thing: my "context in translating that into 'age in the skies' literally removes the idea of God's Heavenly abode altogether." I do NOT believe in "God's Heavenly abode," except for the House He is actually designing and building for us human beings, the New Jerusalem, Yerushalayim haChadashah. If you were to ask the average Christian what "Heaven" looks like, how does he or she respond? He or she would probably respond with a quotation from Revelation 21 and 22! Y'know, streets of transparent gold, pearly gates, etc. Is he or she wrong? NO! Not when you consider that there is "heaven" or "atmosphere" within the walls of the New Jerusalem!
That explains why you're missing out on a whole lot of things about the Heavenly written in God's Word, specifically the change at the twinkling of eye that Apostle Paul taught about in relation to certain events in Isaiah 25. You've also obviously missed out on what Peter taught about Christ at His resurrection going to preach The Gospel to the "spirits in prison". That's not to mention what your Jewish traditions do to Paul's teaching about the saints that have already passed on from this world. They are not in some hole in the ground out in the backyard.
First, just what are you reading in Yesha`yahu’s prophecy (chapter 25)? BE CAREFUL how you interpret Isaiah 25! Can you not see that it is talking about the Millennium?
At best, the passage about “preaching to the spirits in prison” (1 Peter 3:19) is an obscure passage (to y’all) because y’all don’t study the SOURCE of such teachings! You have assumed and added to the Scriptures when you assumed He “preached the Gospel.” The “Gospel” is not even in the passage! That’s NOT what He heralded! Do you understand that this is a quotation from OT Scripture?
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Why do you act like you've "killed the big one?" That's not very professional nor is it very Christian-like. It's not like I haven't thought all this through. You're writing back and forth with someone who has looked up EVERY verse in both the Tanakh and the B'rit Chadashah that has anything at all to do with "heaven, heavens, heavenly, heavenlies, air, sky, skies, and celestial!" I was using Strong's Concordance, a KJV Bible, and the Greek and Hebrew dictionaries within Strong's Concordance, an English dictionary, and Roget's Thesaurus to essentially look up every occurrence of a Greek word or a Hebrew word, like the Englishman's Concordance does, before I even knew there WAS an Englishman's Concordance! I'm not stupid, and I am tenacious about a subject until I've exhausted all leads!
Oh, excuse my little ole' ignorance, afterall I'm a Christian and a Gentile, and a Sotherner by the Grace of God, and what would someone like me know about such things? "Is'a don't know any thang bout delivrn no babies!" Christians know a lot more than Jewish tradition gives them credit. Those who are prideful in their traditions and philosophy actually can't match the wisdom given to the simple Christian through Christ Jesus by The Holy Spirit.
1 Cor 3:19-20
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
(KJV)
Your leads have missed the mark, because after all that study, you've still failed to rely on one simple thing; simple common sense reasoning by The Holy Spirit. That's how the seemingly difficult is made simple.
Let's do a recount:
You don't believe a Heavenly Abode where God dwells exists. That idea suggests that God does not exist, since to you the word heaven always means the atmospheric sky around the earth. Now that idea really is... crazy! Is that the deductive reasoning one is to use because of your disbelief about God's Heavenly Abode being a real place, just not in the dimension we are in?
Hogwash! I am not denying the existence of God by denying the existence of the theological concept of a “Heavenly Abode!” What are you trying to do? Make me look bad to others who might be reading along? Are you trying to justify your own definitions and interpretations by bad-mouthing my stance and make yourself feel better by comparison? I am CONFIRMING the correct meaning of the word “ouranos” (and “shaamayim”)! WHERE is this “Heavenly Abode?” According to Yeshua` Himself, we should know:
John 14:1-4
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
KJV
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I don't have to "get around" what Paul was saying in 1 Cor. 15:35-54 or 2 Cor. 5:1-10. Neither the words "epouranios" ("heavenly") nor "pneumatikos" (spiritual) imply immaterial. To the contrary, they suggest material STRENGTH! Just as the seed and the stalk of wheat are both physical in 15:37-38, so too the "psuchikos" body and the "pneumatikos" body are both physical! The difference is not "material" and "immaterial"; rather, the difference is "weak" and "strong" and BOTH are physical! Look, be more careful: It's not an "ouranios" body, a body made out of "the sky atmosphere around the earth"; it's an "EPouranios" body! A body fashioned like unto HIS glorious body which currently is in outer space, "epouranios!"
You and I definitely do not study with the same groups of Bible scholars. Those Bible references you quoted earlier obviously haven't done you much good. And getting around... is exactly the thing you're trying to do by your misuse of those works. An example?...
So Christ Jesus did NOT ascend to God's Heavenly Abode to sit on His right hand as written? He only ascended into the SKY of "outer space" and that's it!?! Is He up there flying around with the rockets and satellites and stuff then? You do... realize such a belief as that links your thinking to ideas like God could be an alien and there's life on other planets, don't you?
Our Heavenly Father and His Son are not aliens, nor part of the UFO phenomenon. There is no such thing as aliens. If anything, those evidence of the fallen angels popping in between the two dimensions of the earthly and the heavenly. What your belief also suggests that God's Own Image is not really Spirit as written, but made up of material matter, since for ANYTHING to exist in "outer space" it also must have physical MASS and WEIGHT according to God's laws of natural physics. You do realize the sky atmosphere around the earth is made up of material matter that has mass and weight, don't you?
Sorry, that's all the ludicrous nonsense I can take with your crazy thinking. Good luck to you, you're gonna' need it.
All we know about the origin of this earth we get from the Scriptures. We can only KNOW what God shares with us and that only second-hand. Scientists don’t KNOW anything about the origin of earth or the universe from observation; they can only surmise and guess BASED on their observations and records!
Furthermore, God has only told us about OUR biosphere! He has not told us what might be going on upon or around those distant points of light we call stars (Hebrew:
kokhaviym = “round-objects”).
How do we know that there isn’t life on other planets? We don’t know; that’s GOD’S business! And, HE’S NOT TELLING! It’s certainly within His power to create life on more than just one planet!
Where is Yeshua`? I believe that He is in the New Jerusalem – also called “paradeisos” or “Paradise” – at the present “preparing a place for us.” Where is the New Jerusalem? I believe that it is in outer space, far enough away from us that we simply mistake it for another star, if we can see it at all!