Zechariah 14 . . . Fulfilled? or Future?

[Timtofly]

Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,

So we’re are the 144K?

They are reigning with Jesus in heaven and on earth

The 144k have not even been sealed yet. I explained they are on earth until Satan's 42 months. They are on Mount Zion until after the 42 months. They return at Armageddon to defeat Satan, and end the 42 months. Satan is bound for 1,000 years. The FP and beast are cast into the lake of fire. Christ and the 144k reign on earth. This is defined by Isaiah 65. The rule of law is the iron rod. Paradise is still in heaven. The church is still in Paradise.

No way is Isaiah 65 the current earthly condition. No way is Isaiah 65 a new reality. Isaiah 65 has death. Death is defeated as the last enemy when the 1,000 years is over, and the kingdom is handed back to God. 1 Corinthians 15:24-26

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

This is the 1,000 year reign. No other nation is ruling over Jerusalem. The Second Coming is not the end. The end is 1,000 years away. Paul never gives us the time between the Cross and the Second Coming, nor between the Second Coming and the end. Yet Isaiah 65 has to be completed and fulfilled before death itself, the last enemy, is defeated. If you can prove no one dies in the whole chapter of Isaiah 65, then you may have a point.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Marks and I were discussing and looking at the difference between what is physically made manifest of the things of prophecy, and their spiritual counterparts.

In other words, just as Christ was crucified in His time but actually slain before the foundation of the world; and just as Paul knew very well of when Jesus was crucified in His time, but came to say as a part of scriptural truth, that those who are His "were" also crucified with Him--there is both. Both the events in their time, but also...and I would say, more importantly, there is also the timeless truth of those things not in their time, but in God who is greater.

Thus far these differences have only been eluded to in the scriptures--seemingly made manifest first from our perspective, or even more grand when revealed, but then clarified to show them as greater with God. One example is Jesus' clarification of which is actually greater, saying, "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?" Of which, there are fools and blind that are so far off in their understanding that they would again rebuild the temple after being told that it was only representational of what is greater and spiritual, being made in the presence of God.

It is this difference that I confront here daily, of which every topic and discussion would go to rebuilding the lesser things of God according to their worldly manifestation for our learning about that which is actually greater, because of that same lack of understanding--which has been done now for millennia since Christ came announcing this difference in parables, showing that the kingdom of God is only "like" these things.

So, I continue, to speak for that greater parable meaning of the things of God against the misunderstandings of those bound to their ways and the ways of this world. To say nothing of that topic of which we were discussing--but perhaps the explanation is the greatest need.

Thanks for asking.

Thanks. I think I understand what you are trying to say.

While the OT contains many physical realities that God also used as types and shadows of the eternal, we should not forsake the physical either.

In your example, the third temple. It will be built and the old system reestablished. It does not mean that god approves, but is only reporting what will take place. Israel has yet to see the significance behind the Mosaic system of worship, but there is coming atime as Pual and John said when the veil will be removed and the eyes of their understanding opened! that will be a glorious day.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Please do.

Well it changed the first heaven or atmosphere. I do not believe it changed the 2nd heaven or what we call space or the 3rd heaven which is the abode of God.

But it changed for before the flood, there was some form of water canopy surrounding the earth that kept it at a stable and near ideal temperature and protected the planet from harmful solar rays. that is why life was so long in the olden days prior to the flood. Sin had not thoroughly mutated our genetics and the earth was still a paradise as far as protection. There were no seasons as we know them and the polar cirles were lush and tropic as the evidence has proven.

Once God broke open the great fountains of the deep, the ash and dirt and other particulates thrown into the atmosphere created the first rainstorm and it was a beaut! After teh flood, the climate zones were fromed and the polar caps rapidly froze. Now we had the winds and the Jet stream. Teh vapor canopy now gone- harmful rays of the sun bombarded the earth and all living and ages were drastically reduced. If you do a study on the ages, you will see that after the flood ages drastically dropped and kept dropping.

That is how heaven was vastly changed.

 

[ScottA]

Thanks. I think I understand what you are trying to say.

While the OT contains many physical realities that God also used as types and shadows of the eternal, we should not forsake the physical either.

In your example, the third temple. It will be built and the old system reestablished. It does not mean that god approves, but is only reporting what will take place. Israel has yet to see the significance behind the Mosaic system of worship, but there is coming atime as Pual and John said when the veil will be removed and the eyes of their understanding opened! that will be a glorious day.

We have no choice in the forsaking of the physical, but are the recipients of "to live is Christ", who was forsaken in the flesh...and we follow.

As for Israel, I empathize with your feelings...and so does God. However, as a nation, Christ was the Last...and what is now seen is another foreshadowing, that of returning with Christ.

 

[ScottA]

Well it changed the first heaven or atmosphere. I do not believe it changed the 2nd heaven or what we call space or the 3rd heaven which is the abode of God.

But it changed for before the flood, there was some form of water canopy surrounding the earth that kept it at a stable and near ideal temperature and protected the planet from harmful solar rays. that is why life was so long in the olden days prior to the flood. Sin had not thoroughly mutated our genetics and the earth was still a paradise as far as protection. There were no seasons as we know them and the polar cirles were lush and tropic as the evidence has proven.

Once God broke open the great fountains of the deep, the ash and dirt and other particulates thrown into the atmosphere created the first rainstorm and it was a beaut! After teh flood, the climate zones were fromed and the polar caps rapidly froze. Now we had the winds and the Jet stream. Teh vapor canopy now gone- harmful rays of the sun bombarded the earth and all living and ages were drastically reduced. If you do a study on the ages, you will see that after the flood ages drastically dropped and kept dropping.

That is how heaven was vastly changed.

I should think that is good science.

But I prefer to consider the "likeness" that it portrays of the things of God. Which is, that the waters below are their own spirit, and those above are God's, and the two have been separated until there is no more sea, and no more shadow of turning.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We have no choice in the forsaking of the physical, but are the recipients of "to live is Christ", who was forsaken in the flesh...and we follow.

As for Israel, I empathize with your feelings...and so does God. However, as a nation, Christ was the Last...and what is now seen is another foreshadowing, that of returning with Christ.

By this are you saying that God has abandoned Israel as a nation?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I should think that is good science.

But I prefer to consider the "likeness" that it portrays of the things of God. Which is, that the waters below are their own spirit, and those above are God's, and the two have been separated until there is no more sea, and no more shadow of turning.

And by what authority do you rely on to say that teh flood is but a shadow of these things you say they are?

I have become convinced that too many sincere believers are spending way too much time looking for hidden "likenesses" in Scripture and the result has been grave harm to the Scriptures in their teaching and understanding. While we can glean many applications for living from many OT passages, I fear that too many are abandoning the literal to hunt for "deep spiritual meanings" and drawing conclusions they have no clue are from God or not.

 

[ScottA]

By this are you saying that God has abandoned Israel as a nation?

No, but that "It is finished" for them--other than the bloodline which is now under His grace, as are the gentiles.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, but that "It is finished" for them--other than the bloodline which is now under His grace, as are the gentiles.

And what do you mean by "it is finished for them" . I wantr to make sure I do not misunderstand you.

 

[ScottA]

And by what authority do you rely on to say that teh flood is but a shadow of these things you say they are?

I have become convinced that too many sincere believers are spending way too much time looking for hidden "likenesses" in Scripture and the result has been grave harm to the Scriptures in their teaching and understanding. While we can glean many applications for living from many OT passages, I fear that too many are abandoning the literal to hunt for "deep spiritual meanings" and drawing conclusions they have no clue are from God or not.

Then you are off track--upside down.

What the scriptures have been is a mere dim or limited view of all that is actually true in God, whom is spirit...and the continuation of being led into all truth is by the Spirit. How then will you not perish with these thoughts against seeking to know God in spirit, as we approach Him who is spirit?

As for authority--I have not deviated from the scriptures, but told you what you do not know of them for lack of spirit... Are the rivers that flow forth from the throne of God, whom is spirit--liquid? Is the Gift of life from God in the flesh, or even in the blood--except that which was poured out in sacrifice? No, but life is in the spirit--in God.

When it says, "no more sea"--it does not mean no more spirit, but no more water...which only made manifest the spirit. But the earth and the elements thereof, of which is also water, are to be dissolved--but the Spirit remains.

All authority is from God.

 

[ScottA]

And what do you mean by "it is finished for them" . I wantr to make sure I do not misunderstand you.

Christ was the Last (of those to whom the promise was made).

 

[Marty fox]

The 144k have not even been sealed yet. I explained they are on earth until Satan's 42 months. They are on Mount Zion until after the 42 months. They return at Armageddon to defeat Satan, and end the 42 months. Satan is bound for 1,000 years. The FP and beast are cast into the lake of fire. Christ and the 144k reign on earth. This is defined by Isaiah 65. The rule of law is the iron rod. Paradise is still in heaven. The church is still in Paradise.

No way is Isaiah 65 the current earthly condition. No way is Isaiah 65 a new reality. Isaiah 65 has death. Death is defeated as the last enemy when the 1,000 years is over, and the kingdom is handed back to God. 1 Corinthians 15:24-26

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

This is the 1,000 year reign. No other nation is ruling over Jerusalem. The Second Coming is not the end. The end is 1,000 years away. Paul never gives us the time between the Cross and the Second Coming, nor between the Second Coming and the end. Yet Isaiah 65 has to be completed and fulfilled before death itself, the last enemy, is defeated. If you can prove no one dies in the whole chapter of Isaiah 65, then you may have a point.

Of course no one dies in Isaiah 65 death would contradict Isaiah 65.

Isaiah 65:1
“See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.

When does this happen?

Revelation 21:1
21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

This is after the thousand years in chapter 20, isn’t it after all death is defeated?

Isaiah 65:1 says a new heaven and a new earth does the thousand years happen on the new earth?

It also says that the former things will be remembered no more, that contradicts the release of satan and the final battle if it’s the thousand years doesn’t it?

Verse 19 says that the sound of weeping would be no more, don’t people weep when someone dies?

Isaiah 65 is the future in heaven just like revelation chapter 21-22 it’s the new Jerusalem Isaiah is talking about.

Verse 20 says that infants will not die and old men who won’t live out his years, this is talk about no more death confirming verse 19. The ones who fail to reach 100 are accursed because they died spiritually and parished in the lake of fire.

Isaiah 65 says nothing about a thousand years or Jesus on the earth, it doesn’t because as verse one says it’s a new earth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Then you are off track--upside down.

What the scriptures have been is a mere dim or limited view of all that is actually true in God, whom is spirit...and the continuation of being led into all truth is by the Spirit. How then will you not perish with these thoughts against seeking to know God in spirit, as we approach Him who is spirit?

As for authority--I have not deviated from the scriptures, but told you what you do not know of them for lack of spirit... Are the rivers that flow forth from the throne of God, whom is spirit--liquid? Is the Gift of life from God in the flesh, or even in the blood--except that which was poured out in sacrifice? No, but life is in the spirit--in God.

When it says, "no more sea"--it does not mean no more spirit, but no more water...which only made manifest the spirit. But the earth and the elements thereof, of which is also water, are to be dissolved--but the Spirit remains.

All authority is from God.

Well yes as Paul said we see through a glass darkly but in heaven, face to face.

Well I am glad you are so omniscient that you know my spiritual state. You sin in judging my spirituality of which you have no real knowledge. Only God knows that.

But how do you know all these new "manifestations" as you call them are from the Holy SPirit and not your own imagination or an angel of light? Scripture is all we need for living on this planet.

You seem to state that there are more Scriptures to be discovered and made available to believers! Do you claim to be a master buildr of the faith now?

Many of your "manifestations" do deviate from Scripture. Sorry but that is fact. When you allegorize the Noahic flood to glean some hidden meaning from it- you have no clue if your new manifestations allegorically discovered are right or wrong.

So by saying all authority is form God- you are declaring your "deeper insights" into the meanings of what is written is equally inspired as the Scriptures?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Christ was the Last (of those to whom the promise was made).

So, you are saying God is finished with Israel as a nation and all the promises of a kingdom with Messiah as head for the nation are now void? Because the plain writing and meaning of Gods Inspired Word is that Israel is to be regathered in the last days, God will purge the rebels from the nation or people of Israel, and when He returns give them the kingdom promised to them by God. YOu say the plain meaning is in error then.

and please instead of writing in yor mystical spiritual way, answer in plain colloquial English. Your spiritual answers only add to the muddle of trying to have a simple conversation with you.

 

[farouk]

So, you are saying God is finished with Israel as a nation and all the promises of a kingdom with Messiah as head for the nation are now void? Because the plain writing and meaning of Gods Inspired Word is that Israel is to be regathered in the last days, God will purge the rebels from the nation or people of Israel, and when He returns give them the kingdom promised to them by God. YOu say the plain meaning is in error then.

and please instead of writing in yor mystical spiritual way, answer in plain colloquial English. Your spiritual answers only add to the muddle of trying to have a simple conversation with you.

@Ronald Nolette Since as per 1 Corinthians 10.32 Israel is not the church, then hard to see how all the events spoken of by Zechariah are already fulfilled...

 

[Ronald Nolette]

@Ronald Nolette Since as per 1 Corinthians 10.32 Israel is not the church, then hard to see how all the events spoken of by Zechariah are already fulfilled...

So true, God made eternal promises to Israel and said He will do things- so He will do things. The OT shows God foreknew Israel would reject Jesus, That the Father would temporarily set the nation aside as a nation, for the calling out of the gentiles.

But in teh last days He would regather Israel again to their land and in His anger purge Israel from its rebels so that as Paul said and Zech. said and the New Covenant to Israel declares- the entire nation that is left will have the veil removed, and accept their Messiah.

 

[marks]

So. I have a certain view on these events, and on Zechariah 14 and would love to share them, but no-one is listening. So there's no way I'm getting into this discussion. Too much agro.

I'm interested. You can PM if you prefer . . .

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

Well yes as Paul said we see through a glass darkly but in heaven, face to face.

Well I am glad you are so omniscient that you know my spiritual state. You sin in judging my spirituality of which you have no real knowledge. Only God knows that.

But how do you know all these new "manifestations" as you call them are from the Holy SPirit and not your own imagination or an angel of light? Scripture is all we need for living on this planet.

You seem to state that there are more Scriptures to be discovered and made available to believers! Do you claim to be a master buildr of the faith now?

Many of your "manifestations" do deviate from Scripture. Sorry but that is fact. When you allegorize the Noahic flood to glean some hidden meaning from it- you have no clue if your new manifestations allegorically discovered are right or wrong.

So by saying all authority is form God- you are declaring your "deeper insights" into the meanings of what is written is equally inspired as the Scriptures?

I have manifested nothing--God has.

But all you are doing is speaking against the spiritual nature of God and his plans for us. As long as this is your position and your defense...I will not entertain you further with those things that God has already done. Even though you spoke incorrectly of the scriptures and of me, and I could say more--you did not see or hear Him, nor will you hear it from me. Revelation 22:11

 

[ScottA]

So, you are saying God is finished with Israel as a nation and all the promises of a kingdom with Messiah as head for the nation are now void? Because the plain writing and meaning of Gods Inspired Word is that Israel is to be regathered in the last days, God will purge the rebels from the nation or people of Israel, and when He returns give them the kingdom promised to them by God. YOu say the plain meaning is in error then.

and please instead of writing in yor mystical spiritual way, answer in plain colloquial English. Your spiritual answers only add to the muddle of trying to have a simple conversation with you.

Nothing is void, but fulfilled...

Are those not the words of Christ also? Is that too muddled for you?

But you do not want to hear the truth. You say the word of God is inspired, but you mock the idea that He still inspires by the same Spirit as if He were dead; and you refuse to accept His plans for these times of lead us into all truth by that same Spirit. Which is not a spirit of confusion...except to those who do not hear.

So be it. Revelation 22:11

The error is yours.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have manifested nothing--God has.

But all you are doing is speaking against the spiritual nature of God and his plans for us. As long as this is your position and your defense...I will not entertain you further with those things that God has already done. Even though you spoke incorrectly of the scriptures and of me, and I could say more--you did not see or hear Him, nor will you hear it from me. Revelation 22:11

Well your arrogance notwithstanding and your faux spirituality (your writing is dripping with condescension, this Jesus never did) .

You are ignorant of what I speak, but remember this passage as written unless you have mystically retranslated this as well:

Proverbs 16:18
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

I pray your landing is fairly soft.