John Calvin and Calvinism.

[Titus]

What arrogance, you'll allow it. As if you have some authority over others.

Now, regarding salvation specifically ~ believing in and accepting Jesus Christ as Savior and repenting of sin ~ a totally depraved wicked reprobate" can choose God, but will not, because of his nature being of the state that it is; he is wholly inclined not to choose that and to do otherwise, and thus, like I said, will not. He will always choose otherwise, because he or she is dead in his sin and thus a slave to unrighteousness.

There is the double speak calvinist's use to deceive the ignorant.
You said people ie born reprobates can choose God.
Then you said people ie reprobates cannot choose God.
why can they not chose God, Pinseeker?

Why? They cannot turn to God because they were born totally wicked depraved reprobates,
THAT HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO BE BORN THAT WAY!!!!
Which proves, THEY HAVE NO CHIOCE OF THEIR OWN WILL.
No freewill member Pinseeker?
Or, maybe you will allow them some freewill when it helps win your argument.

Typical calvinist debating tactics:
1st, You don't understand calvinism because you cannot understand. Not elected.
2nd You can choose, but you will only choose sin because God willed you to be a totally depraved reprobate.
Real meaning: God has already chosen for you!

Hahaha,
Pinseeker, you wouldn't happen to be a politician eh?

Pinseeker totally depraved leaves a person completely void of being able to choose righteous living.
Logical conclusion: If I will only choose to commit sin because that is all my innate nature allows me to do,
Then, my choice to commit sin was not my choice at all but the nature God gave me.

Does a lion choose to kill other animals to survive?
Does a cow choose to eat grass?
Does a hog choose to wallow in filth?

No!
That's their natures!
Totally depraved nature forces one to be totally wicked.
There is no chioce in innate nature!

God created our nature to be upright!
Not totally depraved,

Ecclesiastes 7:29
Truly this only I have found:
That God made man upright,
But they have sought out many schemes.

Notice it did not say Adam as the calvinist will pervert this verse.

 

[Grailhunter]

you would do well to read the WCF yourself.

I have been educated in theology and Christian history in five different countries and own a 40,000 dollar library, what do you bet I have read it.

Now quote from the WCF how Calvinism believes in free-will and choice and its relation to Judgment Day. How people of free-will can choose to be a Christians. Can choose to be good or not. Good luck.

So we can go back and verify it, here on the forum.

We can go no further until we clear this up and get to the truth.

 

[Grailhunter]

Not necessary; I'm very familiar with it.


Well now those folks would indeed claim to be Calvinists, but really think along the lines of Hyper-Calvinism, which is not really Calvinism at all but an inadvertent twisting of it.


Ah, double predestination. Supralapsarianism. The fact is, Grailhunter, regardless how we characterize it or what label we put on it, God predestines some ~ not all, but some ~ to be conformed to the image of His Son, to eternal life. So we can say that by exclusion ~ not directly but indirectly; by exclusion ~ the ones not predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ are sealed to their fate. But God does not predestine that. The Bible doesn't say that He does, and Calvin didn't say He does. You may call that "doublespeak," and if so... LOL!... so be it.


I just told you "where it came from." Calvin had his theology, and Arminius tried to refute it, propagating five points which he thought to be true but were in fact false. Calvin debunked those five points systematically. But Arminianism lives on, unfortunately. This was basically the disagreement between Augustine and Pelagius centuries before. And the debate will continue ~ again, unfortunately ~ until Jesus returns.


All men (and women) are depraved, and in need of Christ and salvation.


You're completely mischaracterizing what he meant by "controlling oneself."


Well, even David, the man after God's own heart, acknowledged that he was born in sin, sinful even from his mother's womb. Likewise, we all are. As for whether babies go to hell if they die, it depends on whether God has mercy and compassion on them or not (Moses, Paul), and that we cannot know. If the parents are believers, I do believe there's a much better chance of that, but we cannot know.


Sure! But ~ you're going to love this... ~ there's good, and then there's good.


Ah, I disagree with that. You know what they say about blind squirrels...


Um, our works, in and of themselves, are as filthy rags. Unless they are done in faith, of course.which is the gift of God.


Um, depraved, right? I would both agree and disagree with this statement. I mean, first of all, "choose to be good"... We all want to be good folks... But this is not quiiiiiiiiite what the Bible means by 'good'...

But going with what you seem to mean by this, you seem to think we can "choose to be good" in and of ourselves. On a purely human level, I agree, and Calvin would, too. Again, we all want to be good folks. But on a spiritual level, it's quite a different story. Paul disagrees, so I do, too. He says that for us Christians, it is God who is at work in us, and because of this, we will and work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). And regarding your statement that we are not depraved... well that's the part I would agree and disagree with. As Christians, we are striving to put off the "old man" (which means he is still with us) and to put on the new (which we have become). So there's a spiritual battle going on within us all. So, again, yes... and no. But don't worry, the Holy Spirit, who dwells in us, will win in the end. Therefore, we will, too. Thank God for that.

Grace and peace to you.

Quote from the WCF how Calvinism believes in free-will and choice and its relation to Judgment Day. How does the WCF explain how people of free-will can choose to be a Christians. Can choose to be good or not. Good luck.

So we can go back and verify it, here on the forum.

We can go no further until we clear this up and get to the truth.

 

[Titus]

Calvinist's admit, Adam was created in the image of God.
Adam was not totally depraved like calvinist claim we are.

Heres the problem that calvinist doctrine has no answer,

Why did Adam commit sin? He was created in the image of God?

We commit sin supposedly because that's our innate nature.
Adam's nature was like Gods.
In calvinist theology it makes no sense that Adam commited sin,
For it goes against their doctrine of why we commit sin.

Reality,
All men are created in the image of God,
God has freewill,
Man has freewill.
Adam sinned with his freewill.
Just as we do when we come to the age of understanding right from wrong.

 

[Titus]

I have been educated in theology and Christian history in five different countries and own a 40,000 dollar library, what do you bet I have read it.

Now quote from the WCF how Calvinism believes in free-will and choice and its relation to Judgment Day. How people of free-will can choose to be a Christians. Can choose to be good or not. Good luck.

So we can go back and verify it, here on the forum.

We can go no further until we clear this up and get to the truth.

Strage, Lifelong sinner has told me more than once, the reason he is going to hell is because he is not chosen to be the elect. Lifelong sinner believes it is only Gods choice if he is saved or lost. He has no chioce in the matter.

 

[PinSeeker]

What arrogance, you'll allow it. As if you have some authority over others.

Come on, dude. I was just being facetious. Laugh. It was... well, a bit, anyway... funny. My goodness.

There is the double speak calvinist's use to deceive the ignorant.

Not at all.

You said people ie born reprobates can choose God. Then you said people ie reprobates cannot choose God. why can they not chose God, Pinseeker?

I answered that question. Maybe you should read what I said again. Not that you're really misstating it here, but I think I was very clear in what I wrote.

They cannot turn to God because they were born totally wicked depraved reprobates,

Again, they can, just speaking in a human sense, but the will not, because they are in their natural condition, spiritually dead.

THAT HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO BE BORN THAT WAY!!!!

Everybody is born that way. This is the natural human condition. It's the result of Adam's fall, documented in Genesis 3.

Which proves, THEY HAVE NO CHIOCE OF THEIR OWN WILL.

No, it only proves that their will... will ... go in a different direction.

No freewill member Pinseeker?

That one's will is inclined in one direction and not the other does not mean he or she does not have free will.

Typical calvinist debating tactics:
1st, You don't understand calvinism because you cannot understand. Not elected.
2nd You can choose, but you will only choose sin because God willed you to be a totally depraved reprobate.
Real meaning: God has already chosen for you!

Well:
1st, Calvinism can be understood by anyone, but some people choose not to. For various reasons. Of their... free will.
2nd, One can choose... wisely, regarding Jesus, but one will not choose... wisely, regarding Jesus... because, due to who he/she is at the core of your being (in his/her heart)... he she will choose freely, but unwisely.

Pinseeker, you wouldn't happen to be a politician eh?

By the grace of the good Lord, no.

...totally depraved leaves a person completely void of being able to choose righteous living.
Disagree. Blind squirrels. And in that case, their righteous living will get them nowhere as it concerns God.

Logical conclusion: If I will only choose to commit sin because that is all my innate nature allows me to do, Then, my choice to commit sin was not my choice at all but the nature God gave me.

The premise is... flawed. And thus the conclusion follows suit.

Does a lion choose to kill other animals to survive? Does a cow choose to eat grass? Does a how choose to wallow in filth? No! That's their natures!

That's their instinct. Animals act on instinct. They don't make choices like people do; they're animals. But we can correlate, at least in some way, animal instinct with human choices.

Totally depraved nature forces one to be totally wicked. There is no chioce in innate nature!

There is a choice, but the person will never choose contrary to who/what they are in their core being... in their heart.

God created our nature to be upright! Not totally depraved,

Well, right, but only Adam and Eve were not totally depraved... until the events of Genesis 3.

Ecclesiastes 7:29... Notice it did not say Adam as the calvinist will pervert this verse.

LOL!

Okay, I sense the tenor of this going... awry.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Titus]

. I was just being facetious

No that's the way you address others.
I guess you could say, that's just your nature.

 

[PinSeeker]

Calvinist's admit, Adam was created in the image of God.

Right...

Adam was not totally depraved like calvinist claim we are.

He was not, until the events of Genesis 3. Thus we are, because he became that way.

Adam's nature was like Gods.

Before the events of Genesis 3. Afterwards, not so much. And because Adam and Eve are our first parents, we are born in this state.

In calvinist theology it makes no sense that Adam commited sin, For it goes against their doctrine of why we commit sin.

Nope. See above.

All men are created in the image of God...

Yes, but fallen and thus not perfectly (not even close) in the image of God.,

God has freewill, Man has freewill. Adam sinned with his freewill.

Sure.

Just as we do when we come to the age of understanding right from wrong.

Yeah, I mean, when we are babies, sin may not have manifested itself outwardly, but we do have the sinful nature... from birth. Like Adam after the events of Genesis 3. Really more like David... from birth.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

No that's the way you address others. I guess you could say, that's just your nature.

Nope. Just having a little fun with you. Trying to, anyway. But we do all still have the old sinful self in us, so yes, I apologize.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Titus]

Come on, dude. I was just being facetious. Laugh. It was... well, a bit, anyway... funny. My goodness.


Not at all.


I answered that question. Maybe you should read what I said again. Not that you're really misstating it here, but I think I was very clear in what I wrote.


Again, they can, just speaking in a human sense, but the will not, because they are in their natural condition, spiritually dead.


Everybody is born that way. This is the natural human condition. It's the result of Adam's fall, documented in Genesis 3.


No, it only proves that their will... will ... go in a different direction.


That one's will is inclined in one direction and not the other does not mean he or she does not have free will.


Well:
1st, Calvinism can be understood by anyone, but some people choose not to. For various reasons. Of their... free will.
2nd, One can choose... wisely, regarding Jesus, but one will not choose... wisely, regarding Jesus... because, due to who he/she is at the core of your being (in his/her heart)... he she will choose freely, but unwisely.


By the grace of the good Lord, no.




The premise is... flawed. And thus the conclusion follows suit.


That's their instinct. Animals act on instinct. They don't make choices like people do; they're animals. But we can correlate, at least in some way, animal instinct with human choices.


There is a choice, but the person will never choose contrary to who/what they are in their core being... in their heart.


Well, right, but only Adam and Eve were not totally depraved... until the events of Genesis 3.


LOL!

Okay, I sense the tenor of this going... awry.

Grace and peace to you.

Seeing the scriptures through TULIP colored glasses.

 

[PinSeeker]

Quote from the WCF how Calvinism believes in free-will and choice and its relation to Judgment Day. How does the WCF explain how people of free-will can choose to be a Christians. Can choose to be good or not. Good luck. So we can go back and verify it, here on the forum. We can go no further until we clear this up and get to the truth.

Nope. Like I said, it's on you. Your the one accusing.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Seeing the scriptures through TULIP colored glasses.

Thank God for that.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Titus]

Right...


He was not, until the events of Genesis 3. Thus we are, because he became that way.


Before the events of Genesis 3. Afterwards, not so much. And because Adam and Eve are our first parents, we are born in this state.


Nope. See above.


Yes, but fallen and thus not perfectly (not even close) in the image of God.,


Sure.


Yeah, I mean, when we are babies, sin may not have manifested itself outwardly, but we do have the sinful nature... from birth. Like Adam after the events of Genesis 3. Really more like David... from birth.

Grace and peace to you.

You did not give an answer for why Adam sinned against God.

 

[Grailhunter]

Nope. Like I said, it's on you. Your the one accusing.

Grace and peace to you.

Your the Calvinist and the one not telling the truth. So prove me wrong.

 

[Titus]

Your the Calvinist and the one not telling the truth. So prove me wrong.

According to Pinseeker no one knows or understands reformed theology except him. He's the "authority on the matter".

 

[Grailhunter]

According to Pinseeker no one knows or understands reformed theology except him. He's the "authority on the matter".

I have a few books on John Calvin and some of them are older, but I think they are in storage.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Given the amount of horrendous theology i see on this forum, and since the admins seem to have taken a hands off approach to running this place, i’ve taken it upon myself to create this thread for all topics concerning not only the doctrine of Calvinism, but anything John Calvin related.

All questions concerning anything about john calvin please post here.

While there are many verses in the Bible that refute Calvinism, one of my top favorites is 2 Thessalonians 2:10.

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).​

First, according to reading this above verse: Those who perish are perishing because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH. It was not because God did not Elect them to salvation.

Second, those who perish are perishing because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT BE SAVED. There is no MIGHT BE SAVED in Calvinism. Yet, that is what 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says.

I have yet to find a Calvinist who can give me a satisfactory answer to this verse using the Bible. Usually they just dodge it, or they offer an explanation that ignores the words in this verse.

 

[Enoch111]

I have yet to find a Calvinist who can give me a satisfactory answer to this verse using the Bible. Usually they just dodge it, or they offer an explanation that ignores the words in this verse.

Calvinists generally ignore all the Scriptures which refute their own nonsensical gospel. They also ignore the fact that in Calvin's commentaries, he correctly interpreted what was before him, then decided to contradict everything and create his own doctrines. Sadly, the other Reformers went along with his nonsense, and thus Reformed Theology came into existence. Even though the Reformers had the Five Solas before them, they went along with man-made ideas which contradicted the true Gospel.

 

[Enoch111]

According to Pinseeker no one knows or understands reformed theology except him. He's the "authority on the matter".

That's good to know. Now he simply needs to change his handle to "Spinseeker".

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Given the amount of horrendous theology i see on this forum, and since the admins seem to have taken a hands off approach to running this place, i’ve taken it upon myself to create this thread for all topics concerning not only the doctrine of Calvinism, but anything John Calvin related.

All questions concerning anything about john calvin please post here.

Here is another part of the Bible that Calvinists have to change or ignore.

Jonah tells the Ninevites that the city of Nineveh shall be overthrown.

Jonah 3:4
“And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.”​

We learn in Jonah 3:5-9, we learn that Nineveh believed God and they cried out unto God and forsaken their evil ways.

Then we learn of this happening in verse 10:

“And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.” (Jonah 6:10).​

In other words, after God seen that the Ninevites turned from their evil ways, God had relented, held back, changed his mind of the judgment He was said was going to bring upon them and He did it not.

This is simply not possible with the god of Calvinism because their version of god predetermines some to salvation and he predetermines others to be damned for all eternity based on no conditions whatsoever. But the GOD of the Bible clearly can change His mind based on what others do. So if God sees that others repent, and forsake their evil ways, then GOD can change His mind about His original plan to bring judgment upon them. In other words, it was the Ninevites ACTIONS that changed God's mind and it was not God predetermining salvation upon them.