Brakelite
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What can I say. My neighborhood is mysteriously devoid of cats, dogs, and rabbits.
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
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Jim B
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You joke, but you claim to be keeping all of God's law. Animal sacrifices are an integral, required part of that law. With Passover approaching, don't forget that God required the Hebrews to slaughter a lamb and smear its blood on the doorposts and lintel. Are you going to do that?
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
Would you like to demonstrate for us, using Scripture, what your understanding of the Law of Ordinances is? Or will you conveniently dodge the question?
We believe it to mean everything besides the Stone-engraved 10 Commandments; as the Bible makes plain.
Maybe you can tell us when the time of reformation was. The Bible teaches that it was when Christ came.
In Hebrews 9, it speaks of the difference between the tabernacle prior to Christ's sacrifice compared to now and how it all works since the offering of His body, without spot or blemish.
All of the sacrificial, ceremonial Laws involving meat offerings, drink offerings, washings, etc. were referred to as ordinances, " ...imposed ... until the time of reformation."
"... meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal (external) ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."
Hebrews 9:10
Jesus' Crucifixion got rid of all these laws that concerned the external considerations of the law; ...
"Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; ..."
Ephesians 2:15
... whereas the internal Laws - the 10 Commandments written in the hearts - were not abolished. As they never will be.
A symbolic foreshadowing of this was the 10 Commandments being placed inside the Ark of the Covenant, while the Law of ordinances was placed on the outside of it.
"Take this book of the law, and put it in (on) the side of the Ark of the Covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee."
Deuteronomy 31:26
This was the Law that was contrary to mankind. The Law that was external and abolished on the Cross.
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to the Cross."
Colossians 2:14
"Thou shall put into the Ark the testimony that I will give thee."
Exodus 25:16
This was the 10 Commandments. The Perfect Law of Liberty that sets men free.
James 1:25
Psalms 19:7
There is no longer any laws about sacrifices or ordinances ... as these verses make plain. The Law that teaches us about, and makes us aware of our, sin is still fully in effect. That is the 10 Commandments per 1 John 3:4.
Brakelite
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I could have explained all that along the same lines, but I couldn't be bothered. Jim knows all that. That's why he doesn't sacrifice animals. He also knows that the commandments against theft, adultery, murder, idolatry etc, are not abolished, because they point out sin. If people didn't know they were sinners, they would never know their need of a Savior. And Jim knows that too. He knows all that. But he, like so many others, doesn't want to admit he knows those things. That's why he sidetracks the conversation into little straw men avenues that serve none or contribute anything to the conversation. And why does he and so many others do that? Because of the pesky irritating commandment number 4, which for so many is just one step too far down the road to full surrender to God's authority.
So they make excuses. Theological inventions. Play mind games. All with the intention of avoiding truth. They seem to forget that God can read also. And His angels are recording every word to remind them in due time that they knew, but choose another way. Sad.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Keeping it in context is always helpful.
2....'You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor’ and ‘Hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,.....' Jesus. Matthew 5:43. ....A search for 'you have heard said' will pull up many more.
3.... 'A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things...' Moses. Deut. 18:15
4.... 'He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD. Deut. 8:3
Jim B
Well-Known Member
a) How do you know what I know and what I don't know? Are you a mind reader?
b) You claim to keep God's law, but now you claim that part of it is no longer in effect. Specifically, which parts are in effect and which aren't?
c) I am not sidetracking the conversation into little straw men. That is a poor ad hominem diversion.
Commandment #4 concerns the sabbath (if that's what you're referring to). It's absurd to call that "pesky" and "irritating". What is annoying about having a day off to any rational person?
Since you are going increasingly "off the rails", I have put you on "ignore" until you regain some sanity.
He actually only gave 1 new commandment and it seems like most are unable to keep it. But then, that's the whole point of His teachings in all 4 gospels. We are unable to keep the law, any law, perfectly. It is impossible for men, but not for Him. I'm not saying that we should live lawlessly, but we shouldn't be deceived into believing that we can keep any law perfectly either. Jesus' point in all 4 gospels is that the only way to have a righteousness greater than the scribes and Pharisees (who really tried to be righteous) was to accept His righteousness, the righteousness of God, by faith.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
That is certainly true, but if you look at Jesus' sermon on the mount what he is showing is the Pharisees were only righteous in regard to the externals of the law, not the internals, and so our righteousness is to exceed theirs and include the inward things of the law, too, like not coveting your neighbor's wife, not just not committing actual adultery with her.
There is no righteousness greater than that of God.
Satan thinks he can ascend the mount to the north and be like the most high God, but the way of righteousness is a descent, not an ascent, to be the lowliest of the low, to consider others better than yourself, to be fully submitted to Christ and the brethren.
Do you know anyone like that, like Jesus, who humbled Himself even to be rejected, spat upon, beaten, scourged, and crucified?
I think most folks here are upside down, not upright. However, I interact with words on the white screen of a tablet, not people. Our words are more commonly our transgressions rather than our righteousnesses and there's not one soul here that I really know.
Desire Of All Nations
Well-Known Member
That's exactly what you're doing because you are characterizing the commandments that define godly love as oppressive rules that shouldn't be observed.
It's evident by their theology that antinomians don't what grace is within the context of how 1st century Christians Romans understood it. In the ancient Roman world, grace was a system in which a person owed their patron a lifetime of service for bailing them out of a bad situation when they lacked the means to get out of it themselves.
It is literally no different in the Christian context, which is why Paul goes on to tell the Romans what he did in Rom. 12:1-2. A Christian owes God a lifetime of service to His commandments as a result of God rescuing them from a lifetime of slavery to Satan when He didn't have to.
Grace is unmerited favor or pardon. It does not, nor did it ever, mean God's commandments should be disregarded. When Paul told the Romans that they were "under grace", he was reminding them that they were freed from Satan's grip and not under the death penalty. What he clearly didn't do was say that grace didn't involve law-keeping.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments."
Thank you. I didn't know you held me in such high esteem......but that said, mine aren't that important!
Thank you. I didn't know you held me in such high esteem......but that said, mine aren't that important!
One does not have to go as far as “ coveting” your neighbor’s wife to be an Adulterer in God’s eyes....Just one lustful THOUGHT will get that job done ....one best go get them some Grace to Cover those Sins that just about everybody is guilty of at times....NOBODY has a 100% Pure “ thought life”..... I know that I don’t —— how about you?
What he clearly didn't do was say that grace didn't involve law-keeping.
“ Christ is THE END OF THE LAW for Righteousness”
“ By The WORKS of the LAW , NO FLESH will be Justified “
Got more if you want it.....
“ Christ is THE END OF THE LAW for Righteousness”
“ By The WORKS of the LAW , NO FLESH will be Justified “
Got more if you want it.....
For all of you “ Law- Lovers” out there—- rejoice! Jesus left you with one ! “ Take on the Burdens Of others” ......That is the “ Law Of Christ”..... go knock yourselves out.... be warned though.....even doing “that” wont Save you if you don’t REST in the Gospel Of Pure Grace ( 1Cor15:1-4) ....If your “doctrine ” fails in the end to give 100% of the Glory to Jesus for your Salvation....you have the Wrong Doctrine.....Don't wait until it is too late to discover that the Old Hymn had it right all along—- turns out it really “ was” , “ Nothing But The Blood”.....Nothing.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
No, lol, a thought is not a sin. That's a temptation. It's not a sin to be tempted. Set your heart on it, entertain it, roll it around in your mind, then it's a sin.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
That is true. Through the grace of God's faith believers uphold the law.
"31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law." Romans 3:31
Desire Of All Nations
Well-Known Member
Rom. 10:4 say what you think it does. Paul is actually agreeing with Jesus' statement in Matt. 5:48 where He said His followers are to pursue moral perfection. Guess how that's done? Keeping His Father's commandments! Paul was not saying Jesus put an end to the law. What Paul was saying is that Jesus became the standard of law-keeping. That implies a very different message than the baloney you're trying to sell.
As far as the second statement goes, Paul was not saying what you think he did either. Paul was saying a person cannot be forgiven by keeping laws of any kind, which is true. However, what you're conveniently neglecting to mention is Paul's statement in Rom. 2:13:
Paul's own words destroy any false argument antinomains attempt to make, because he clearly doesn't disagree with James saying faith without obedience is worthless. Try as deceivers might to confuse or guilt trip people by misusing Paul's words and omitting his pro-law statements, they aren't fooling anyone who know their bibles.
However, what you're conveniently neglecting to mention is Paul's statement in Rom. 2:13:
"(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;"
And what * YOU* are “ conveniently neglecting” is a verse in the very next Chapter Of Romans....
Romans 3:28.....” Therefore we conclude that a man is JUSTIFIED By FAITH * WITHOUT” the Deeds Of The Law”.......I can provide many, many verses by Paul that says the same thing....how about you ? You have just one isolated verse that “ appears “ to nullify everything that Paul ever wrote....That ain’t happenin’ ....
Your “ Take” on your selected verse is wrong.....Indeed, the Good News is that “ Doers of the Law WILL be Justified ! The Bad News is that Jesus Christ was the only one that kept the Law and thereby was the only “ Doer Of The Law” that ever existed.....That is the point that Paul is making....Gentiles do not have the Law and the Jews do—— it makes no difference—- NEITHER Group is a Doer Of The Law...
If you desire to take the Law Route for your Justification , the Standard as Jesus said, is for you to be “ PERFECT — even as God is PERFECT”...... good luck with that Route....
Paul has not done an about- face and thrown out the multitude of verses where he says that Grace is the answer, not Law—— he told the Galatians that if Righteousness could be obtained by Keeping the Law, Jesus died for no reason....
There are two ways to interpret the verse you submitted.....The WRONG WAY is to conclude that Law Keeping is the way to be Saved....
The CORRECT WAY to interpret that verse is to realize that Paul is telling his audience that “ having the Law is not enough, you have to KEEP it—- and nobody can....”
"(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;"
And what * YOU* are “ conveniently neglecting” is a verse in the very next Chapter Of Romans....
Romans 3:28.....” Therefore we conclude that a man is JUSTIFIED By FAITH * WITHOUT” the Deeds Of The Law”.......I can provide many, many verses by Paul that says the same thing....how about you ? You have just one isolated verse that “ appears “ to nullify everything that Paul ever wrote....That ain’t happenin’ ....
Your “ Take” on your selected verse is wrong.....Indeed, the Good News is that “ Doers of the Law WILL be Justified ! The Bad News is that Jesus Christ was the only one that kept the Law and thereby was the only “ Doer Of The Law” that ever existed.....That is the point that Paul is making....Gentiles do not have the Law and the Jews do—— it makes no difference—- NEITHER Group is a Doer Of The Law...
If you desire to take the Law Route for your Justification , the Standard as Jesus said, is for you to be “ PERFECT — even as God is PERFECT”...... good luck with that Route....
Paul has not done an about- face and thrown out the multitude of verses where he says that Grace is the answer, not Law—— he told the Galatians that if Righteousness could be obtained by Keeping the Law, Jesus died for no reason....
There are two ways to interpret the verse you submitted.....The WRONG WAY is to conclude that Law Keeping is the way to be Saved....
The CORRECT WAY to interpret that verse is to realize that Paul is telling his audience that “ having the Law is not enough, you have to KEEP it—- and nobody can....”
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Who here claims to have flawlessly obeyed all of God’s commandments 100% of the time? Pinocchio please stand up.
So what does it mean to “keep” Greek word “tereo” (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments?
So what does it mean to “keep” Greek word “tereo” (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments?
Jim B
Well-Known Member
It means to be guided by the Holy Spirit that we Christians have been given to think and act according to God's will.
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