John Calvin and Calvinism.

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Pierac

Active Member
Nov 15, 2021
756
159
43
61
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Did you really use a thesaurus to "prove" your point? Oh brother. No, you do not need to teach me the English Language, but perhaps I should teach you how to use language tools and what each of them are for, and, more importantly, not for.

THEOLOGY OF THE POLITICS OF TERROR
By Thomas Talbott

I first heard the name of Miguel Servetus (1511-1553), whom the Calvinist in Geneva burned over green wood so that it took three hours for him to be pronounced dead, in an undergraduate history class. Here was a man whom the Christian authorities of a Christian city executed even though he had committed no crime in their city; he was executed solely for his anti-Trinitarian views and because he disagree with Calvin on some fine points of theology. Nor is there any doubt that Calvin himself engineered the arrest, conviction, and execution of this “heretic.” {Footnote-Calvin may have preferred, it is true, a less brutal form of execution. “I hope the judgment will be capital in any event, but I desire cruelty of the punishment withheld” {Quoted in Williston Walker, John Calvin (New York: Schocken Books, 1969), page 333].}

Nor was Servetus the only heretic who Calvin wanted to put to death. Previously he had sought, unsuccessfully, the death of Jerome Bolsec, because of a disagreement over a matter as abstract as the doctrine of predestination; {Footnote-- For an exhaustive (even monumental) treatment of the Bolsec controversy on predestination and of the lengths to which Calvin went in his efforts to get Bolsec condemned to death, see Philip Holtrop, The Bolsec Controversy on predestination, from 1551 to 1555: The Statements of Jerome Bolsec, and the response of John Calvin, Theodore Beza, and Other reformed Theologians (Lewiston, N.Y.: Edwin Mellon press, 1993) } and later he had Sebastian Castellio charged with heresy, Principally because the latter had criticized the burning of Servetus.

Calvin's precise role in the Servetus affair is not my present concern, however. For two points, at least, are undeniable: First, as a letter to his friend, Guillaume Farel, illustrates, Calvin had desired the death of Servetus for many years. After the sharp tongue and exasperating Spaniard sent Calvin a copy of the institutes in which he had marked its supposed errors, Calvin penned these pretentious words:

Servetus lately wrote to me and coupled with his letters a long volume
of his delirious fancies, with Thrasonic boast that I should see something
astonishing and unheard of. He would like to come here if it is agreeable
to me. But I do not to pledge my word for his safety. For, if he comes,
I will never let him depart alive, if I have any authority
.



These words, written several years before the actual arrest of Servetus, already reveal Calvin's willingness to have his adversary put to death. And second, as Leonard Verduin points out, Calvin passionately defended the execution afterwards with “every possible and impossible argument.” He sincerely believes, in other words, that Servetus deserved to die.

But why did Calvin believe this? Why did he regard heresy as a crime for which death is an appropriate punishment? It has no answer, in this present context, merely to point out that Calvin was himself the product of an intolerant age. For though that may be true enough, it does not explain the theological roots of the intolerance; to the contrary, it merely underscores Russell's point about some of the pernicious effects that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has had. Are we not talking, after all, about a age, one in which, as Russell himself said, people really did believe the Christian religion in all its completeness”? Why is it that this so-called Christian ages have produced so much in tolerance, so much at murder and mayhem?
 

Lifelong_sinner

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2021
2,056
722
113
Somewhere in time
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
THEOLOGY OF THE POLITICS OF TERROR
By Thomas Talbott

I first heard the name of Miguel Servetus (1511-1553), whom the Calvinist in Geneva burned over green wood so that it took three hours for him to be pronounced dead, in an undergraduate history class. Here was a man whom the Christian authorities of a Christian city executed even though he had committed no crime in their city; he was executed solely for his anti-Trinitarian views and because he disagree with Calvin on some fine points of theology. Nor is there any doubt that Calvin himself engineered the arrest, conviction, and execution of this “heretic.” {Footnote-Calvin may have preferred, it is true, a less brutal form of execution. “I hope the judgment will be capital in any event, but I desire cruelty of the punishment withheld” {Quoted in Williston Walker, John Calvin (New York: Schocken Books, 1969), page 333].}

Nor was Servetus the only heretic who Calvin wanted to put to death. Previously he had sought, unsuccessfully, the death of Jerome Bolsec, because of a disagreement over a matter as abstract as the doctrine of predestination; {Footnote-- For an exhaustive (even monumental) treatment of the Bolsec controversy on predestination and of the lengths to which Calvin went in his efforts to get Bolsec condemned to death, see Philip Holtrop, The Bolsec Controversy on predestination, from 1551 to 1555: The Statements of Jerome Bolsec, and the response of John Calvin, Theodore Beza, and Other reformed Theologians (Lewiston, N.Y.: Edwin Mellon press, 1993) } and later he had Sebastian Castellio charged with heresy, Principally because the latter had criticized the burning of Servetus.

Calvin's precise role in the Servetus affair is not my present concern, however. For two points, at least, are undeniable: First, as a letter to his friend, Guillaume Farel, illustrates, Calvin had desired the death of Servetus for many years. After the sharp tongue and exasperating Spaniard sent Calvin a copy of the institutes in which he had marked its supposed errors, Calvin penned these pretentious words:

Servetus lately wrote to me and coupled with his letters a long volume
of his delirious fancies, with Thrasonic boast that I should see something
astonishing and unheard of. He would like to come here if it is agreeable
to me. But I do not to pledge my word for his safety. For, if he comes,
I will never let him depart alive, if I have any authority
.



These words, written several years before the actual arrest of Servetus, already reveal Calvin's willingness to have his adversary put to death. And second, as Leonard Verduin points out, Calvin passionately defended the execution afterwards with “every possible and impossible argument.” He sincerely believes, in other words, that Servetus deserved to die.

But why did Calvin believe this? Why did he regard heresy as a crime for which death is an appropriate punishment? It has no answer, in this present context, merely to point out that Calvin was himself the product of an intolerant age. For though that may be true enough, it does not explain the theological roots of the intolerance; to the contrary, it merely underscores Russell's point about some of the pernicious effects that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has had. Are we not talking, after all, about a age, one in which, as Russell himself said, people really did believe the Christian religion in all its completeness”? Why is it that this so-called Christian ages have produced so much in tolerance, so much at murder and mayhem?

bunch of nonsense. Calvin had no more say or authority over servetus’ death than any other person who attended the stake burning. Calvin haters will goto great lengths to hate on calvin. Why? I dont know.
 

reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2019
4,618
1,481
113
Somewhere in the USA
reformedtruths.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
THEOLOGY OF THE POLITICS OF TERROR
By Thomas Talbott

I first heard the name of Miguel Servetus (1511-1553), whom the Calvinist in Geneva burned over green wood so that it took three hours for him to be pronounced dead, in an undergraduate history class. Here was a man whom the Christian authorities of a Christian city executed even though he had committed no crime in their city; he was executed solely for his anti-Trinitarian views and because he disagree with Calvin on some fine points of theology. Nor is there any doubt that Calvin himself engineered the arrest, conviction, and execution of this “heretic.” {Footnote-Calvin may have preferred, it is true, a less brutal form of execution. “I hope the judgment will be capital in any event, but I desire cruelty of the punishment withheld” {Quoted in Williston Walker, John Calvin (New York: Schocken Books, 1969), page 333].}

Nor was Servetus the only heretic who Calvin wanted to put to death. Previously he had sought, unsuccessfully, the death of Jerome Bolsec, because of a disagreement over a matter as abstract as the doctrine of predestination; {Footnote-- For an exhaustive (even monumental) treatment of the Bolsec controversy on predestination and of the lengths to which Calvin went in his efforts to get Bolsec condemned to death, see Philip Holtrop, The Bolsec Controversy on predestination, from 1551 to 1555: The Statements of Jerome Bolsec, and the response of John Calvin, Theodore Beza, and Other reformed Theologians (Lewiston, N.Y.: Edwin Mellon press, 1993) } and later he had Sebastian Castellio charged with heresy, Principally because the latter had criticized the burning of Servetus.

Calvin's precise role in the Servetus affair is not my present concern, however. For two points, at least, are undeniable: First, as a letter to his friend, Guillaume Farel, illustrates, Calvin had desired the death of Servetus for many years. After the sharp tongue and exasperating Spaniard sent Calvin a copy of the institutes in which he had marked its supposed errors, Calvin penned these pretentious words:

Servetus lately wrote to me and coupled with his letters a long volume
of his delirious fancies, with Thrasonic boast that I should see something
astonishing and unheard of. He would like to come here if it is agreeable
to me. But I do not to pledge my word for his safety. For, if he comes,
I will never let him depart alive, if I have any authority
.



These words, written several years before the actual arrest of Servetus, already reveal Calvin's willingness to have his adversary put to death. And second, as Leonard Verduin points out, Calvin passionately defended the execution afterwards with “every possible and impossible argument.” He sincerely believes, in other words, that Servetus deserved to die.

But why did Calvin believe this? Why did he regard heresy as a crime for which death is an appropriate punishment? It has no answer, in this present context, merely to point out that Calvin was himself the product of an intolerant age. For though that may be true enough, it does not explain the theological roots of the intolerance; to the contrary, it merely underscores Russell's point about some of the pernicious effects that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has had. Are we not talking, after all, about a age, one in which, as Russell himself said, people really did believe the Christian religion in all its completeness”? Why is it that this so-called Christian ages have produced so much in tolerance, so much at murder and mayhem?
And this is where people always go to discredit Calvin and Calvinists. Sorry, not worth my time. Do you throw out the Psalms that David wrote too?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lifelong_sinner

praise_yeshua

Active Member
Apr 19, 2022
666
90
28
America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
bunch of nonsense. Calvin had no more say or authority over servetus’ death than any other person who attended the stake burning. Calvin haters will goto great lengths to hate on calvin. Why? I dont know.

I see you enjoy preaching men.......

Wasn't Severtus arrested after listening to one Calvin's sermons?

Calvin was such a "nice guy".....

I bet you believe that Servertus was worthy of death???? Come on, clear you heart. You believe Severtus should have been murdered for his position...... right?
 

reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2019
4,618
1,481
113
Somewhere in the USA
reformedtruths.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I see you enjoy preaching men.......

Wasn't Severtus arrested after listening to one Calvin's sermons?

Calvin was such a "nice guy".....

I bet you believe that Servertus was worthy of death???? Come on, clear you heart. You believe Severtus should have been murdered for his position...... right?
Again, if you are focused on the Servetus issue you have lost the game. Do you think we should throw out all of the Psalms of David?
 

praise_yeshua

Active Member
Apr 19, 2022
666
90
28
America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Again, if you are focused on the Servetus issue you have lost the game. Do you think we should throw out all of the Psalms of David?

Did I say anything about the Psalms?

Calvin hated Severtus. That much is sure. He believed Severtus should die, he just "kinda" didn't want him to burn too long.
 

Lifelong_sinner

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2021
2,056
722
113
Somewhere in time
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I see you enjoy preaching men.......

Wasn't Severtus arrested after listening to one Calvin's sermons?

Calvin was such a "nice guy".....

I bet you believe that Servertus was worthy of death???? Come on, clear you heart. You believe Severtus should have been murdered for his position...... right?

calvin im sure was a nice guy. He did tell servetus to stay away from geneva. If calvin were alive today, i’d be trying to become one of his students.
 

reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Oct 15, 2019
4,618
1,481
113
Somewhere in the USA
reformedtruths.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
calvin im sure was a nice guy. He did tell servetus to stay away from geneva. If calvin were alive today, i’d be trying to become one of his students.
@praise_yeshua
Calvin is often criticized for his role in the execution of Servetus. Can you please comment on his role?

Michael Servetus was widely viewed as a heretic (by Catholics and Protestants alike). The man was off the charts in the views he held. Now many cities in that day had heresy laws -- there were certain expectations in that day regarding morality and teaching. Calvin warned Servetus not to come to Geneva, because he would be punished. Servetus nevertheless came to Geneva, and was arrested by the authorities (of which Calvin was not one) and sentenced to be burned at the stake. Calvin petitioned (without success) the authorities and pleaded for a more humane form of execution.

In that day, heresy and treason were one in the same. In fact, said Mohler, heresy is a greater evil than treason--but it should not be the role of the state to punish heresy. That should be the church's role.

Lawson: Calvin did not put him to death; he was called upon as a witness. He was not even a citizen at the time. The men sentencing Servitus were actually Calvin's enemies.

Ligonier National Conference - Q&A Session I
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lifelong_sinner

PinSeeker

Well-Known Member
Oct 4, 2021
2,622
730
113
Nashville
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@praise_yeshua
Calvin is often criticized for his role in the execution of Servetus. Can you please comment on his role?

Michael Servetus was widely viewed as a heretic (by Catholics and Protestants alike). The man was off the charts in the views he held. Now many cities in that day had heresy laws -- there were certain expectations in that day regarding morality and teaching. Calvin warned Servetus not to come to Geneva, because he would be punished. Servetus nevertheless came to Geneva, and was arrested by the authorities (of which Calvin was not one) and sentenced to be burned at the stake. Calvin petitioned (without success) the authorities and pleaded for a more humane form of execution.

In that day, heresy and treason were one in the same. In fact, said Mohler, heresy is a greater evil than treason--but it should not be the role of the state to punish heresy. That should be the church's role.

Lawson: Calvin did not put him to death; he was called upon as a witness. He was not even a citizen at the time. The men sentencing Servitus were actually Calvin's enemies.

Ligonier National Conference - Q&A Session I
I'll speak for PY, then:

"Okay, game, set, and match. You made me look silly. But there's just GOTTA be SOMETHING that makes John Calvin a monster! There's just GOTTA be!"

:)

Grace and peace to you.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lifelong_sinner

praise_yeshua

Active Member
Apr 19, 2022
666
90
28
America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@praise_yeshua
Calvin is often criticized for his role in the execution of Servetus. Can you please comment on his role?

Michael Servetus was widely viewed as a heretic (by Catholics and Protestants alike). The man was off the charts in the views he held. Now many cities in that day had heresy laws -- there were certain expectations in that day regarding morality and teaching. Calvin warned Servetus not to come to Geneva, because he would be punished. Servetus nevertheless came to Geneva, and was arrested by the authorities (of which Calvin was not one) and sentenced to be burned at the stake. Calvin petitioned (without success) the authorities and pleaded for a more humane form of execution.

In that day, heresy and treason were one in the same. In fact, said Mohler, heresy is a greater evil than treason--but it should not be the role of the state to punish heresy. That should be the church's role.

Lawson: Calvin did not put him to death; he was called upon as a witness. He was not even a citizen at the time. The men sentencing Servitus were actually Calvin's enemies.

Ligonier National Conference - Q&A Session I

I'm not preaching Servetus. He isn't my Master.

I am drawing attention to the fact that Calvin wasn't guiltless in desiring the death of Servetus.

You, like Calvin had no problem with desiring that your fellowmen be murdered for what they believe.

So much for that great "1st Amendment" Americans supposedly pride themselves in believe. Unlike you, I actually believe in the 1st Amendment. Servertus didn't do anything to deserve the death he received under our 1st Amendment. We rightfully believe that the Truth "stands up" to scrutiny. You don't believe such. You want to silence others. I do not.

Just like Calvin, you're glad that Servertus was killed. If you were there, you would do it yourself. You're evil men.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pierac

Lifelong_sinner

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2021
2,056
722
113
Somewhere in time
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm not preaching Servetus. He isn't my Master.

I am drawing attention to the fact that Calvin wasn't guiltless in desiring the death of Servetus.

You, like Calvin had no problem with desiring that your fellowmen be murdered for what they believe.

So much for that great "1st Amendment" Americans supposedly pride themselves in believe. Unlike you, I actually believe in the 1st Amendment. Servertus didn't do anything to deserve the death he received under our 1st Amendment. We rightfully believe that the Truth "stands up" to scrutiny. You don't believe such. You want to silence others. I do not.

Just like Calvin, you're glad that Servertus was killed. If you were there, you would do it yourself. You're evil men.

what nonsense.
 

Lifelong_sinner

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2021
2,056
722
113
Somewhere in time
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm sure you would....

You would be disappointed.

why is that? Calvin was extremely smart and understood the Bible far better than i ever could. And i bet me and johnny would get along well. But quite honestly, i could see calvin picking someone much better like RC Sproul or paul washer or john macarthur.
 

Lifelong_sinner

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2021
2,056
722
113
Somewhere in time
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm sure you would....

You would be disappointed.

found something of interest for you;

“Geneva became a model of order and cleanliness and was admired by visitors. Men trained by Calvin carried his ideas all over Europe. He lived to see his following grow in the Netherlands, Scotland, Germany, and even France. On May 27, 1564, Calvin died after a long illness, having left a huge mark on the Christian world.”

So he did have students. I could have been one.
 

praise_yeshua

Active Member
Apr 19, 2022
666
90
28
America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
why is that? Calvin was extremely smart and understood the Bible far better than i ever could. And i bet me and johnny would get along well. But quite honestly, i could see calvin picking someone much better like RC Sproul or paul washer or john macarthur.

He was overrated. So is Sproul, Walker and MacArthur. Just men. I'd rather have Jesus than ?????

What is anything worth with Him?
 

praise_yeshua

Active Member
Apr 19, 2022
666
90
28
America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
found something of interest for you;

“Geneva became a model of order and cleanliness and was admired by visitors. Men trained by Calvin carried his ideas all over Europe. He lived to see his following grow in the Netherlands, Scotland, Germany, and even France. On May 27, 1564, Calvin died after a long illness, having left a huge mark on the Christian world.”

So he did have students. I could have been one.

Keep praising Calvin. You praise what you love.
 

Lifelong_sinner

Well-Known Member
Sep 21, 2021
2,056
722
113
Somewhere in time
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He was overrated. So is Sproul, Walker and MacArthur. Just men. I'd rather have Jesus than ?????

What is anything worth with Him?

overrated???? :eek::eek::eek::eek:

having Jesus would be best, but that aint reality. So we have to compromise and pick another who understands scripture better than most. That was calvins gift… he understood God much more than the average person.
 

Pierac

Active Member
Nov 15, 2021
756
159
43
61
Phoenix
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
i think God used calvin to help glorify Himself and help win over more of the elect. Calvin was no doubt the most influential of all the reformers.

Thus the problem...You try to think!!! Does God really need to win over the elect???
I think not .... you have no understanding of the elect....Do you???


NASB Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (DRAGS) him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

CEV Joh 6:44 No one can come to me, unless the Father who sent me makes them want to come. But if they do come, I will raise them to life on the last day.

Joh 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him,66 and I will raise him up at the last day.

Net Bible

Joh 6:44 -
66tn Or "attracts him," or "pulls him." The word is used of pulling or dragging, often by force. It is even used once of magnetic attraction (A. Oepke, TDNT 2:503).
sn The Father who sent me draws him. The author never specifically explains what this "drawing" consists of. It is evidently some kind of attraction; whether it is binding and irresistible or not is not mentioned. But there does seem to be a parallel with Joh_6:65, where Jesus says that no one is able to come to him unless the Father has allowed it. This apparently parallels the use of Isaiah by John to reflect the spiritual blindness of the Jewish leaders (see the quotations from Isaiah in Joh_9:41 and Joh_12:39-40).

Let me throw you a Bone... lifelong sinner...
NASB Eph 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Net Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29(G280) since we were predestined (G4309) according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

29 tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.
Word study
G2820

κληρόω
klēróō; contracted klērṓ, fut. klērṓsō, from klḗros (G2819), a lot. To cast lots, determine by lot, i.e., to determine something, choose someone. In Eph_1:11, it means, "in whom the lot has fallen upon us also, as foreordained thereto . . . to be" (a.t.). The idea expressed here is that Christians have become heirs of God due to the fact that God predestined them according to His purpose. In a manner of speaking, the "lot" fell to believers not by chance but solely because of the gracious and sovereign decision of God- Almighty to select them to be His heirs.

Deriv.: prosklēróō (G4345), to give or assign by lot.

I'm done with the LOT of you LL sinner ...LOL.... But you gotta love it.... You went full Calvin in the same ignorance that Calvin claimed when He said the apostle's were idiots like I already showed and proved in his writings! Then he goes and kills anyone who disagrees with him... documented in History!!!

So Lifelong sinner, were you chosen by Lot? By your name you claim to be a sinner... as if that some how makes you chosen... I'm thinking who knows.... ???

Lifelong sinner.... You have no say!!! Just like Calvin taught!!!

Your a Spiritual Child... not knowing any thing your taught to believe by the traditions of men you follow!


NASB Act 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Lifelong sinner... how do you know if you have been appointed? You getting the clear picture NOW... or do you still want to defend Calvin's actions and killing of Servetus ? What did Jesus teach??? Love or Murder?? Your on the same path as Calvin...

Why do you think I post so BOLDLY.... Because I see... I'm the one eyed man... in the land of the blind here...
Paul
 
Last edited: