Christ's Coming to Gather His Church is AFTER the Tribulation

[Taken]

Lord Jesus Himself said it, in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

And did you know brethren the Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 verses parallel what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the event of Jesus' future coming and gathering of His faithful Church?

Matthew 24:
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

? Tribulation of what days?
? What is the sign of the Son of man ?
? Who are all the tribes?
? Why are all the tribes mourning ?
? Who are the mourners Seeing the Son of man coming?
? What Trumpet sound, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7th ?
? Who are the elect being gathered from the four winds?
? Who are the elect being gathered from one end of heaven to the other?
? Who is doing the gathering from the four winds?
? Who is doing the gathering from the heavens?

Those who are preaching a pre-trib rapture, or a mid-trib rapture, are simply NOT following what Jesus Himself said in His Word. I can't put it any more honestly than that.

What is your point? Jesus’ Church, is the tribes of the Earth, and shall see the Sign of the Son of man....AND MOURN? Why?

Maybe, the MOURNING Tribes of the Earth IS ISRAEL, and they are MOURNING, because they didn’t BELIEVE in the Son of God, but SEE his SIGN, and mourning because they DIDN’T Believe!

Jews LOOK for signs. Jews REQUIRE a sign. (1 Cor 1:22)
And when they GET a SIGN, oops. It’s that Son of Man AGAIN, this time, coming WITH POWER, oops, oops.

So WHO is being gathered from one end of Heaven to Another?
Ding, ding, ding....
Ancient men Before Christ...men who died faithful to God.
Men After Christ....who were converted IN Christ...Christ’s Church.
^ The Raptured ^

 

[Taken]

How can you think that all of the trumpets happen after that when "the great day of His wrath" is already at hand at the sixth seal?

Whose wrath, during the opening of the SEALS? 1-6?
Wrath of the Lamb.
Why is the Lamb Angry, Sending His Wrath?
Remember...the numbers of Jews/Tribes, who DO NOT BELIEVE The Lamb of God, is Jesus, is Christ, is their Savior?

God is coming to SAVE HIS PEOPLE....however they experience the Wrath of the Lamb, BECAUSE, Israel did not DO the WILL of the FATHER, ie BELIEVE IN the one God SENT.

After the SEALS comes the TRUMPS...killing of body’s.
WHY killing of body’s of those choosing to BELIEVE in the Lamb?
WHO is doing the killing? The Devil.
Killing who? Those who will not submit to the Devil.
What is the Devil’s killing called...? The Devil’s Wrath.
What does the Devil have Wrath? Being Rejected.

BODY”S MUST DIE before their SOUL can be SAVED.

The converted body’s die, crucified with Christ, are saved.
Others during the Trib, who turn to Belief....body’s must physically die, to become soul saved. (That is them being martyred).

 

[The Light]

There are no conflicting details between Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thess 4:14-17. Not even close.

This is a ridiculous claim. They would be conflicting only if 1 Thess 4:14-17 specifically said that Christ was coming without His angels. But, it absolutely does NOT say that. You just assume that for no reason except that angels aren't specifically mentioned there.

Simple as this. 1 Thes 4 is about the bridegroom coming for his bride. The Lord Himself comes. Matthew 24:29-31 is about the gathering from heaven and earth. He will send His angels. You miss so details how can you possibly understand.

The 70th week of Daniel was fulfilled long ago. Jesus confirmed the new covenant and put an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings at that time.

You need to do some research. Someone has fed you a load.

There is no basis whatsoever for thinking that Jesus was talking about two different events when He compared the days before His coming to the days of Lot and the days of Noah.

The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. Simple. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. Just as simple.

How can you think that all of the trumpets happen after that when "the great day of His wrath" is already at hand at the sixth seal? You're not recognizing that there are parallels in the timing between the seals and trumpets (and vials), so that's why you have the timing of things all mixed up.

There cannot be parallels between the seals and trumpets because the seals are the tribulation and trumpets are the wrath of God. Also, the trumpets cannot occur until the 7th seal is opened. Therefore they cannot be parallel events.

So, you think 1 Thess 4:14-17, Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19:11-19 are three different events? LOL. I'm sorry, but I can't take you seriously. You clearly require two passages to contain all the same details in order to be speaking of the same event, which is ridiculous.

So what you see in the Word is pretty limited. With so little attention to detail, not much chance anything will change.
Yeah, those are three different comings. 1 thes 4:14-17 is the Lord himself coming for His bride, the Church. The secret coming when He will come in an hour that you think not. As for the next coming, Jacob worked 7 more years for Rachel the Chosen bride even as the Lord will send His angels after the 70th week of Daniel for the second harvest. Those 144,000 first fruits are proof of this coming harvest. This happens at the 6th seal, before the wrath of God. Then of course, the coming Jesus with the armies of heaven in Rev 19. If you are unable to understand that those are 3 separate events, you just are unable to understand that those are three separate event.

 

[Marilyn C]

Still a problem with that idea that you overlooked...

Gal 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

Even in Ephesians 2, Apostle Paul told Gentile believers that they had come into the promises and covenants to Israel.

And don't you remember the parable Jesus gave about the man that made a great supper? (Luke 14:16-24). Those bidden to come to the wedding would not come, making excuses. Then the man told his servants to go out into the lanes and streets, and bring in the poor, the lame, and blind, and bid to the supper. Those originally bid to the supper represent unbelievers of Israel. The poor, lame, and blind represent everyone else, the Gentiles.

Yes God said there is the Church, He also said give no offence to the Greeks, (Gentiles) and the Jews. (1 Cor. 10: 32)

Luke as well as the other gospels are written in relationship to Israel as the Body of Christ had not as yet been revealed. (Eph. 3: 1 - 7)

 

[Marilyn C]

Well, regardless of what you claim to believe on those things, Darby's Dispensationalism, of which the later doctrines of Hyper-Dispensationalism (or Hyper-Grace), are... based on the idea of two different gospels, one for Israel and another for Gentiles. Apparently you are not well aware of that, because you don't seem to recognize that tradition even in your own words (per your posts), but I can still recognize it. Might want to look into that Dispensationalist history.

I believe what God word says regarding -the Body of Christ, Israel and the nations. (1 Cor. 10: 32)

 

[Davy]

What is your point? Jesus’ Church, is the tribes of the Earth, and shall see the Sign of the Son of man....AND MOURN? Why?

When you actually take time... to READ my post, then I'd be glad to respond to an educated sane question about it.

 

[Taken]

When you actually take time... to READ my post, then I'd be glad to respond to an educated sane question about it.

Okay, I asked your point. You didn’t answer. I will presume you didn’t have a point.

 

[Davy]

Yes God said there is the Church, He also said give no offence to the Greeks, (Gentiles) and the Jews. (1 Cor. 10: 32)

Luke as well as the other gospels are written in relationship to Israel as the Body of Christ had not as yet been revealed. (Eph. 3: 1 - 7)

Give no offense to the Greeks or Jews? WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???

Before the foundation of this world, God already had a plan for His chosen Israel.

The Promise by Faith first given through Abraham is the SAME FAITH that those in Christ Jesus have believed. That is why Apostle Paul said those of 'Faith' are the "children of Abraham", and inherit with Abraham. You can follow that Faith from Abraham to his son Isaac, who next inherited the Promise, and then it continued to his son Jacob, and it then went to his son Joseph, and then finally upon Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where it still is to this day.

Along with The Gospel Faith, God gave Abraham other promises that went with it. Blessing of the land, blessing of great resources, blessing of a great number of seed, blessing of controlling the gates of one's enemies, blessing of plenty of corn and wine, all those promises are included in The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Have you not noticed that when Christ The Gospel is preached to an area on the earth, and those people accept Jesus, that they begin to be blessed and thrive??? And just the opposite, when you look at an area on earth where great strife, famines, bad lands that won't produce, etc., it's easy to see that God has not blessed those people that reject His Son, and thus their land and works also is not blessed.

Even today, if the western Christian nations stopped all aid to the many unbelieving nations those nations would fall by the wayside and have to resort to war to try and to continue to exist.

 

[Davy]

Okay, I asked your point. You didn’t answer. I will presume you didn’t have a point.

Don't be coy, I refuse to address smart-elicks.

 

[Davy]

I believe what God word says regarding -the Body of Christ, Israel and the nations. (1 Cor. 10: 32)

I do too. And that's what I teach.

 

[Davy]

Pretty obvious that most of those that came here to respond to my OP don't like what I showed per God's Word against man's leaven doctrine of a false pre-trib rapture.

Some of them I've conversed with before about the fake pre-trib rapture, so that's one way I know them.

One of the stupid strategies of those on the false pre-trib rapture theory is to pull a single verse from The Bible and use it against those like me any way it will fit. That's Bible butchery, but no surprise, so is a doctrine like a pre-trib rapture too, so those could care less if they butcher The Bible or not.

 

[PinSeeker]

I refuse to address smart-elicks.

Hypocritical much?

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

 

[Davy]

Hypocritical much?

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

Hey, I can dish it out just like those here begin with me. If you don't like it, then maybe you can go borrow a crying towel or something, instead of willing to be a stand-up soldier for Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Whose wrath, during the opening of the SEALS? 1-6?
Wrath of the Lamb.
Why is the Lamb Angry, Sending His Wrath?
Remember...the numbers of Jews/Tribes, who DO NOT BELIEVE The Lamb of God, is Jesus, is Christ, is their Savior?

God is coming to SAVE HIS PEOPLE....however they experience the Wrath of the Lamb, BECAUSE, Israel did not DO the WILL of the FATHER, ie BELIEVE IN the one God SENT.

After the SEALS comes the TRUMPS...killing of body’s.
WHY killing of body’s of those choosing to BELIEVE in the Lamb?
WHO is doing the killing? The Devil.
Killing who? Those who will not submit to the Devil.
What is the Devil’s killing called...? The Devil’s Wrath.
What does the Devil have Wrath? Being Rejected.

BODY”S MUST DIE before their SOUL can be SAVED.

The converted body’s die, crucified with Christ, are saved.
Others during the Trib, who turn to Belief....body’s must physically die, to become soul saved. (That is them being martyred).

I have no idea of what you're talking about. When He comes He will destroy all of those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel of Christ. Meanwhile, those who belong to Him will be changed to have immortal bodies and caught up to Him. How does your understanding of Revelation line up with a passage like this:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Hey, I can dish it out just like those here begin with me. If you don't like it, then maybe you can go borrow a crying towel or something

Sorry. I don't respond to smart-"elicks." Now where have I heard that before...?

Just playin' with ya, Davy. Hackin' atcha, as Billy the Kid (Emilio Estevez) said in the movie "Young Guns."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Taken]

Don't be coy, I refuse to address smart-elicks.

Smart-elick...? Like someone who thinks they know it all?
BTY, it’s smart aleck. And Knowing All is exclusive to Jesus.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. Simple. Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. Just as simple.

LOL!!!! Do you even know where you strayed?
You mention Lot and Noah and then presume their event is the same. Yet you say destruction came on the same day Lot went out. True. But then you say Noah went in the ark 7 days BEFORE the destruction lol. Is that what Gen 7 actually says? This is a Pre-TB twist.

If Noah entered the ark 7 days before the wrath and most Pre-TBers teach this resembles the church being saved 7 years (7 years of Daniel’s 70th week) before as well, that means Pre-TBers would actually be saved not on the same day destruction comes like Lot but actually 7 years before the first seal ( they think the seal’s begin the 70th week) like they teach as Noah was 7 days before God’s wrath. But you don’t do that do you? To make your broken eschatology work, you throw out that logic and then say it’s like Noah, but it’s not, and move the 7 years not before the wrath, but what they think is right on it and then say the 7 years is the tribulation. It’s so distorted, you need to read a book by Dr. Ice or Walvoord or another Pre-TBer to make sense of it.

You cannot claim Lot or Noah in a Pre-TB theory because their truth doesn’t fit that eschatology. Either you are saved on the last day as Lot and Noah or you are saved 7 years before the wrath begins for a total of 14 years (7 years before and 7 years of Daniel’s week).
The latter is unbiblical and a distortion of understanding Gen 7. A close reading would show you Lot and Noah were both saved on the same day wrath came and that is why they are both given the comparison. Scripture is established when there is more then 1 point given to refute falsehood.

 

[The Light]

Pretty obvious that most of those that came here to respond to my OP don't like what I showed per God's Word against man's leaven doctrine of a false pre-trib rapture.

You are quite a comedian. The only thing you have shown is that you know very little about God's word as it relates to end times.

I do too. And that's what I teach.

Well, one of us is a teacher. I've tried to teach, but I'm just no good at it. It became painfully obvious that I am no teacher as I cannot teach the blind to see.

Some of them I've conversed with before about the fake pre-trib rapture, so that's one way I know them.

One of the stupid strategies of those on the false pre-trib rapture theory is to pull a single verse from The Bible and use it against those like me any way it will fit. That's Bible butchery, but no surprise, so is a doctrine like a pre-trib rapture too, so those could care less if they butcher The Bible or not.

I've found that it is almost impossible to use a single scripture or even multiple scriptures against those like you. I can post scripture, after scripture, after scripture, after scripture, proving the things you claim are nonsense. The problem is always the same, getting the blind to see. How do you get the blind to see?

 

[The Light]

LOL!!!! Do you even know where you strayed?

I didn't stray anywhere.

You mention Lot and Noah and then presume their event is the same.

No. That's only you presuming that's what I presume. Complete error on your part.

Yet you say destruction came on the same day Lot went out. True. But then you say Noah went in the ark 7 days BEFORE the destruction lol.[/QUOTE]

Is that what Gen 7 actually says? This is a Pre-TB twist.

Of course Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood.

If Noah entered the ark 7 days before the wrath and most Pre-TBers teach this resembles the church being saved 7 years (7 years of Daniel’s 70th week) before as well, that means Pre-TBers would actually be saved not on the same day destruction comes like Lot but actually 7 years before the first seal ( they think the seal’s begin the 70th week) like they teach as Noah was 7 days before God’s wrath. But you don’t do that do you? To make your broken eschatology work, you throw out that logic and then say it’s like Noah, but it’s not, and move the 7 years not before the wrath, but what they think is right on it and then say the 7 years is the tribulation. It’s so distorted, you need to read a book by Dr. Ice or Walvoord or another Pre-TBer to make sense of it.

I don't need to read a book by a pretrib writer to make sense of it. It's perfectly clear.

You cannot claim Lot or Noah in a Pre-TB theory because their truth doesn’t fit that eschatology. Either you are saved on the last day as Lot and Noah or you are saved 7 years before the wrath begins for a total of 14 years (7 years before and 7 years of Daniel’s week).
The latter is unbiblical and a distortion of understanding Gen 7. A close reading would show you Lot and Noah were both saved on the same day wrath came and that is why they are both given the comparison. Scripture is established when there is more then 1 point given to refute falsehood.

You might want to do a little more studying. I really don't suggest you read others books. Read the Word and accept what is written. Don't make stuff up because you lack understanding. Instead take what God tells you as fact and run with those facts. Everything fits together perfectly if you just stop making things up. Example. The Church is not Israel. Israel is Israel.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You might want to do a little more studying. I really don't suggest you read others books. Read the Word and accept what is written. Don't make stuff up because you lack understanding. Instead take what God tells you as fact and run with those facts. Everything fits together perfectly if you just stop making things up. Example. The Church is not Israel. Israel is Israel.

Regarding your example, can you tell me how you interpret this passage:

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

You say: "Israel is Israel".

Paul said: "For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel".

Paul didn't seem to agree with you.