Why don’t you believe Satan has been defeated?

[LearningToLetGo]

Have we defined the meaning of "defeated" in this thread? Perhaps that's a stumbling point.

I define "defeated" within this context as "unable to affect humanity anymore". This could mean dead or permanently thrown into the lake of fire. Perhaps others define it more along the lines as "checkmated and unable to win against God."

If we are using the former definition then I think Satan is absolutely not defeated yet. However, if we are using the latter then he is, but just because there is a "checkmate in eight moves" does not mean he can't continue to terrorize the planet while the game plays out.

 

[MatthewG]

Learningtoletgo,

You asked some good questions on your other post. Have considered writing out at least one of the chapters just for reference, may take time to do that tomorrow.

For one, the term that is referred to in the initial post is indeed what you have stated "unable to affect humanity anymore".

There are some that do not believe this, and for me it is fine.

There are four main views of Revelation either way it goes.

Historist,
Idealist,
Pertrist,
Futurist,

Where people are on this I have no idea, aside from where I personally stand, but I do not have any problems with others who may believe Satan is still around, or believe that Jesus is coming back again soon (which has been prevalent throughout the past however long - forever - it seems); I agree that Darkness is very much still around, but Satan not so much.

The people in Israel continued even after Yeshua had died, to instate following the Law and Commandments of Moses, but since having that nailed to the cross, the Lord told his apostles that He would be returning, and it would culminate in the destruction of their heavens and earth - that they understood by how they lived, which was - by living out the Material law, Jesus came and returned for his church/bride in that day in age which was those 144,000 people from the twelve tribes who were pure, holy, and undefiled, which was prophesied by Jesus to happen 40 years prior to 70Ad.

There is no verse in the Bible that says "he had returned", nor is there any "we seen Jesus come" written anywhere in other historical text out there - but internal evidences of the Bible suggest those on that day of the great and fearful day of the LORD, those who would be looking and waiting for his return would see him; thus I believe by faith this had happened but that doesn't mean there is no reason to share Christ, and learn the principles of the Bible it does allow people to subjectively live their lives how they will - with their relationship between them and God with no interference from anyone else. Aside from the Darkness we wrestle with.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

You asked some good questions on your other post. Have considered writing out at least one of the chapters just for reference, may take time to do that tomorrow.

Thank you. I actually read Revelation in its entirely just last weekend. It's still quite fresh in my mind.

Personally, I think that Revelation is the perfect book-end to Genesis 1 and 2. I also believe that both book-ends are poetry and not to be taken literally. That said, most Christians disagree with me, which is why I don't argue the issue.

 

[farouk]

1 Corinthians 15.57 speaks of the glorious victory which the Lord Jesus gained at the Cross, and Who rose again.

 

[MatthewG]

Thank you. I actually read Revelation in its entirely just last weekend. It's still quite fresh in my mind.

Personally, I think that Revelation is the perfect book-end to Genesis 1 and 2. I also believe that both book-ends are poetry and not to be taken literally. That said, most Christians disagree with me, which is why I don't argue the issue.

LearningtoletGo,

That is interesting that you have stated that about the book-ends, even if you see them as poetry, there is some spiritual applications we can learn from them. It is amazing, because they tie in together like a bow on a present. Appreciate you taking time to chime in here and there on this thread.

 

[Brakelite]

@Brakelite, if you would like to just point out the one thing sure. If you use scripture (if it happens to be a lot) please use quotes around those parameters if you do not care, thank you.

Glad you are able to read it and understand it fully; it may not change my mind personally but you may present if you are desiring to do so.

Thank you. The first issue I have is your understanding of the term beast.
KJV Revelation 13:1
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
I believe as you do, that scripture interprets scripture. If there is a symbol in prophecy, we may turn elsewhere in scripture to find what that symbol represents right? Note that this beast, whatever it is, is described a certain way, which brings us directly back to the book of Daniel, where we see 4 beasts also depicted as rising up out of the sea. The angel speaking to Daniel tells him what these beasts are,
KJV Daniel 7:3, 17
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
Now the context, and history, informs us that these 4 kings developed into empires, and the great breasts themselves were to be understood as such. In fact, each of those empires had a succession of rulers, and in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8, some of those rulers were depicted as horns growing from the head of the beast, and if we go to history, we discover that those horns also developed into kingdoms with a succession of kings ruling. So we need to understand history, as well as context, and not confine ourselves to just one limited literalist understanding. The point being, nine of those great breasts that rose from the sea were literal individuals... They were great empires with several very important common factors which they shared. They had great impact on the nation of Israel. They were carnivores... They fed on other beasts through war and aggression, and assimilated the cultures of those they conquered to a great extent, particularly their spiritual religious culture, mainly in the form of pagan idolatry. History testifies to this when we consider Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome, and how the Roman culture inherited so much from those empires that preceded her.

The second point is your propensity to localize everything. These beasts covered vast territories, but we're certainly literal local empires of theOT times. But when it speaks of rising up out of the sea, again we turn to scripture (no need for guesswork) to understand what the sea is...
The beast of Revelation 13 not only rose from the sea, but developed in character to form into a global tyranny and sat on those waters...
KJV Revelation 17:1, 15
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters....
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
Many waters. Many nations, tongues and multitudes of people. This isn't just a localized Israel, not even a localized empire. No longer are we discussing a local king and a local empire. This beast is a spiritual entity, for literal Babylon is long past away from the earth. And the beast depicted in Revelation 13 had, like the empress of the OT, inherited and assimilated the cultures and religious heritage of those home before, as seen on is appearance. This is truly a global spiritual entity, as revealed in the fact that it is worshipped by the world, it blasphemes God, it persecutes the saints (note...not literal Israel, but the church)... Globally. This entity arises after pagan Rome has gone, although there is that assimilated iron in her makeup. But whoever this beast is, it cannot be pagan Rome or a member of it. It is aNT entity.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

LearningtoletGo,

That is interesting that you have stated that about the book-ends, even if you see them as poetry, there is some spiritual applications we can learn from them. It is amazing, because they tie in together like a bow on a present. Appreciate you taking time to chime in here and there on this thread.

Words don't need to be literal to be true. Sometimes the most important take-away is how a person feels. Revelation encourages Christians to be fearless, knowing that God's victory is assured and Satan is predestined to defeat. I believe this to be true, I just don't worry about the details of how this is accomplished. I also believe that as long as a single human takes breath, Satan will remain the adversary. His demise and our ultimate redemption are inextricably tied. In other words, we need him.

 

[MatthewG]

Words don't need to be literal to be true. Sometimes the most important take-away is how a person feels. Revelation encourages Christians to be fearless, knowing that God's victory is assured and Satan is predestined to defeat. I believe this to be true, I just don't worry about the details of how this is accomplished. I also believe that as long as a single human takes breath, Satan will remain the adversary. His demise and our ultimate redemption are inextricably tied. In other words, we need him.

Okay, sometimes people reading the Revelation it is very scary. You have Jesus hammering down on those 7 churches in the first 2 Chapters, and then you have all of the rest of it and what explains of terrible things to happen, such as the seven vials, and seven seals to be opened and everything. People through-out time, just disregard it as a whole, or believe that it is not even nessicary to be even in the Bible at all. Not so sure about the whole - words do not need to be literal to be true - that kind of to me defeats the purpose of Yahweh even speaking, as he/she/it spoke everything into existence by his very own Word, whom he later had sent to be the Savior of the world. Darkness has existed since the beginning but Satan was claimed to be defeated done away with forever. As like you, I do not like to try to argue and allow people the freedom to be who they are, and think what they will, it is good to ask questions and to be kind and sincere with others by the spirit and not be lead by our flesh in trying dog people down.

 

[MatthewG]

Thank you. The first issue I have is your understanding of the term beast.
KJV Revelation 13:1
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

I believe as you do, that scripture interprets scripture. If there is a symbol in prophecy, we may turn elsewhere in scripture to find what that symbol represents right? Note that this beast, whatever it is, is described a certain way, which brings us directly back to the book of Daniel, where we see 4 beasts also depicted as rising up out of the sea. The angel speaking to Daniel tells him what these beasts are,

KJV Daniel 7:3, 17
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Now the context, and history, informs us that these 4 kings developed into empires, and the great breasts themselves were to be understood as such. In fact, each of those empires had a succession of rulers, and in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8, some of those rulers were depicted as horns growing from the head of the beast, and if we go to history, we discover that those horns also developed into kingdoms with a succession of kings ruling. So we need to understand history, as well as context, and not confine ourselves to just one limited literalist understanding. The point being, nine of those great breasts that rose from the sea were literal individuals...

They were great empires with several very important common factors which they shared. They had great impact on the nation of Israel. They were carnivores... They fed on other beasts through war and aggression, and assimilated the cultures of those they conquered to a great extent, particularly their spiritual religious culture, mainly in the form of pagan idolatry. History testifies to this when we consider Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome, and how the Roman culture inherited so much from those empires that preceded her.

The second point is your propensity to localize everything. These beasts covered vast territories, but we're certainly literal local empires of theOT times. But when it speaks of rising up out of the sea, again we turn to scripture (no need for guesswork) to understand what the sea is...
The beast of Revelation 13 not only rose from the sea, but developed in character to form into a global tyranny and sat on those waters...

KJV Revelation 17:1, 15
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters....
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Many waters. Many nations, tongues and multitudes of people. This isn't just a localized Israel, not even a localized empire. No longer are we discussing a local king and a local empire. This beast is a spiritual entity, for literal Babylon is long past away from the earth. And the beast depicted in Revelation 13 had, like the empress of the OT, inherited and assimilated the cultures and religious heritage of those home before, as seen on is appearance. This is truly a global spiritual entity, as revealed in the fact that it is worshipped by the world, it blasphemes God, it persecutes the saints (note...not literal Israel, but the church)... Globally. This entity arises after pagan Rome has gone, although there is that assimilated iron in her makeup. But whoever this beast is, it cannot be pagan Rome or a member of it. It is aNT entity.

Brakelite, thank you for sharing your position of how you believe not so sure what to say brother in all honesty. People are going to look at Revelation, and will come up with many different things, for me it is seen as a literal foretelling of those 7 churches in Asia Minor, and the persecution they then would suffer under the beast Nero. Now some people don't believe it, and that is fine the main thing to do is be considerate, kind, and have love for one another as we live and walk on this earth, sir. You do not like the idea of me making it local, so don't make it local, whatever you decide may we have love for God, and love for our neighbors while we are given a chance and trusting the one who God had sent and had raised again from the dead, sir.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Not so sure about the whole - words do not need to be literal to be true - that kind of to me defeats the purpose of Yahweh even speaking

Not at all!

Take, for example, the idea of Santa Clause. Is there a literal fat-man living at the North Pole, manufacturing and delivering presents to children around the world? No! Yet every Christmas morning hundreds of millions of children around the world awaken to discover the presents that he delivered. It is truly a mystery.

Going back to Revelation, is Jesus going to fly in on the clouds, face glowing like the sun, feet like bronze, wielding a sword in his mouth? No! But it does not matter as long as Christians believe it, since the purpose of Revelation is to embolden Christians in their faith, and for that purpose it works perfectly.

 

[MatthewG]

We believe in God who may or may not exist at all, the only hope relying on the one whom he had sent, Jesus Christ, who died on the cross, was buried and raised again on the third day and has been accounted for even outside of the Bible itself.

Through my experience there is nothing like meeting the Lord Jesus Christ, and having ones life changed from darkness into light.

Tired now, take care...

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Through my experience there is nothing like meeting the Lord Jesus Christ, and having ones life changed from darkness into light.

Amen, brother. I have met Jesus. He radiated golden white light and when he gazed upon me my mind stopped. In that instant I felt Jesus peer into me. He saw me in my entirety. He knew my every thought, my every feeling - not just in that moment but in every moment of my existence. What's more, he made me aware that he knew. That moment I was stripped naked. There was nothing I could hide, nothing I could say, nothing I could do. I felt his love, but also his disappointment, since all my little white lies, all my excuses, all my failings, all my mistakes, all my BS was laid bare. I could not even justify myself since I knew he knew my thoughts before I did. All I could do was drop to my knees, face covered in tears, and cry out, "I'm sorry!"

It took me many years to process that experience. That is my knowledge of Jesus. That is my "road to Damascus" moment.

 

[Brakelite]

Brakelite, thank you for sharing your position of how you believe not so sure what to say brother in all honesty. People are going to look at Revelation, and will come up with many different things, for me it is seen as a literal foretelling of those 7 churches in Asia Minor, and the persecution they then would suffer under the beast Nero. Now some people don't believe it, and that is fine the main thing to do is be considerate, kind, and have love for one another as we live and walk on this earth, sir. You do not like the idea of me making it local, so don't make it local, whatever you decide may we have love for God, and love for our neighbors while we are given a chance and trusting the one who God had sent and had raised again from the dead, sir.

You do realize that I covered just two aspects of one verse right? And even then, not to the depth that could be mined. Revelation. 13 is an entire chapter, all of it supporting those two aspects...a global spiritual entity that began immediately after the fall of pagan Rome, and continues to the second coming, yet future. Yes, the 7 letters were to local churches who were under the pump of 1st century persecution... From the Jews mainly... Rome came a little later. The warnings to those churches were of deceptions and apostasy that mirrored the apostasies of Israel... Balaam... Jezebel...
But those churches also represented various stages of church development and falling away in the church age. History reveals this truth and testifies to the wisdom of God inherent in those letters... Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times, things that would surely come to pass. Revelation isn't a hammer of fear and punishment. It's a love letter to His people. It brings warning yes, but also hope, promise, and encouragement that whatever happens in the future God is with us. He is and will always remain in control, despite the best efforts of Satan to thwart His plans. Revelation is scary only to those who do not venture to study it for themselves, and merely rely on others to give their opinion. Jesus said Himself... KJV Revelation 1:3
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
And yes, the time was at hand. But not everything in the prophecy took place in the first century. It merely began to taker place. Just like the prophecies of Daniel. They began to be fulfilled in his lifetime, but are yet to be completed. The Rock hasn't destroyed those empires yet. The get and yours are still operating. But we are near the end. Daniel 11 is an historical summary of the last 2500 years. We are presently in the last 5 verses. Expand your vision Matthew, you have much to learn.

 

[MatthewG]

You do realize that I covered just two aspects of one verse right? And even then, not to the depth that could be mined. Revelation. 13 is an entire chapter, all of it supporting those two aspects...a global spiritual entity that began immediately after the fall of pagan Rome, and continues to the second coming, yet future. Yes, the 7 letters were to local churches who were under the pump of 1st century persecution... From the Jews mainly... Rome came a little later. The warnings to those churches were of deceptions and apostasy that mirrored the apostasies of Israel... Balaam... Jezebel...
But those churches also represented various stages of church development and falling away in the church age. History reveals this truth and testifies to the wisdom of God inherent in those letters... Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times, things that would surely come to pass. Revelation isn't a hammer of fear and punishment. It's a love letter to His people. It brings warning yes, but also hope, promise, and encouragement that whatever happens in the future God is with us. He is and will always remain in control, despite the best efforts of Satan to thwart His plans. Revelation is scary only to those who do not venture to study it for themselves, and merely rely on others to give their opinion. Jesus said Himself... KJV Revelation 1:3
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
And yes, the time was at hand. But not everything in the prophecy took place in the first century. It merely began to taker place. Just like the prophecies of Daniel. They began to be fulfilled in his lifetime, but are yet to be completed. The Rock hasn't destroyed those empires yet. The get and yours are still operating. But we are near the end. Daniel 11 is an historical summary of the last 2500 years. We are presently in the last 5 verses. Expand your vision Matthew, you have much to learn.

It seems to me you are part of the historicist view perhaps? Like history repeats itself so the revelation and things of Daniel may repeat again in this life time?

I’ve have given the way I view revelation 13 the best way I could using history and summation of others and their findings.

My preference is to believe Jesus has already returned, hope you can respect that as a brother in Christ. There is a lot of the Bible I still have left to read as I never read the whole thing, but am working on doing it in a years worth of time by Gods grace, and my willingness to put in the effort.

As stated many times over and over: freely believe how you are going to. Telling me to expand my vision is pointless, and it is kind of a slap in the face, but as Yeshua said we are to turn the other cheek.

Will try to help with any other questions about the Revelation, as someone desired to know more about when Satan was loosed, and thousand years I may get to that sometime today and share it from the fulfillment perspective.

Anyone who does read this - I am not telling anyone or demanding anyone to post on this thread it is participating on your part. I am also not demanding anyone believe what is shared here by me, nor condemning anyone here for what they decide to believe which is between you and the Living God you serve.

May all be encouraged to seek out the information yourself as the Bible has a history and you can see and find when the Gospels were written and the letters by Paul, you can see many of the groups written to in that time, it is just up to you to do research and study the Bible or not.

We are called to love God and love others, and from what I understand many people here believe that Jesus came, died, and was raised again, and we are called to have love defined in (1 Corinthians 13).

Thank you.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There is a lot of the Bible I still have left to read as I never read the whole thing

You need to do that Mathew. You need to read it at least once because He cannot recall the verses to your mind when needed if you never read them in the first place. I know it is hard at first because you set yourself to do it but then it’s so confusing that you put it down and go look for a man to explain it to you, thinking it will be impossible for you to ever understand. It’s a lack of trust that the Holy Spirit can and will explain it to you as was promised. And if it’s not a lack of trust in that promise, then it’s an impatience that doesn’t want to wait on God and depend only on Him but wants to go and depend on men. And if it’s not either of those then it’s fear at something you read as a threat rather than a promise that you want to be explained away by someone. It might even be all three of the above reasons, or a combination thereof.

Had you read it, you might be further than you are now by the Holy Spirits guidance. I know from a while back that you said you got a copy of the NLT translation. It’s there waiting for you. Believe Mathew. Believe the promise that the Holy Spirit will guide you and teach you. Believe the promise that you have need of no other Teacher than Him. I don’t know if you’ve even read that promise as you say you haven’t read the whole Bible yet. So here it is: But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie.
And here’s another verse regarding this promise: 26 But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative—that is, the Holy Spirit—he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.

 

[MatthewG]

Thank you for that encouragement, Stunnedbygrace. If someone asked me what parts of the Bible have you read, I would explain I have read all of the New Testament but the book of Acts, and I have read a few of the books in the Old Testament. I am working on reading through the whole thing in a year with this bible reading guide.

God bless.

- Matthew

Here is the guide for anyone else who may desire to save it and try it for themselves as well.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

He doesn’t often have me glued to my Bible any more. That will probably bother some but it’s how He’s done it with me. Although there were times, and still are occasionally, where I’m glued to it. But He recalls verses to my mind that I literally don’t remember reading or ever even hearing sometimes. Just small and seemingly inconsequential, not often used and almost archaic verses. I then go looking for the verse and passage to read it because He wants to…tie it into my understanding. He breaks pieces off of me (I guess that’s pruning) and then He ties pieces onto me or…into me.

 

[MatthewG]

To me it is a choice to read the Bible, it is the same thing as a choice to dying to ones self and living for God. That is what the Bible ultimately leads to - the cross - death to self and to be alive to God, living by the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ with-in us. It is really cool that God gave us the ability to have free-will, and some people read their bibles some people study, some people believe and strive to Love God, and Love other people. That is what is comes down to at the end of the day, are we going to live by our fleshly carnal nature which is as Jesus had stated ( Matthew 15:18-20 ), there is also Paul who mentions to dead to sin (Romans 6:11), and to put off the old former ways ( Ephesians 4:21-23 ), ( Colossians 3:8-10), these are some good key passages to learn about in the progression of ones own faith. Being raised again with Christ ( Colossians 3:1-3; Colossians 2:11-13).

The Holy Spirit is helpful in remind us of these things, and they are there to refer to. Living by the Spirit is primary (Galatians 5:22-26), and the Bible is referential if one desires to go back and look at it and read it or study it.

God bless to all, take care, it all boils down to having love for God, and love for others.

 

[Phoneman777]

Hello Phoneman777,

That is fine, thank you for sharing this with the group.

I will say this, one day we will be with the Lord, when we die, so keep focused on him, keep sharing with your friends and families and pray for all of us brother.

(I would say otherwise but as it stands I am not here to make anyone adhere to my own view) everyone is unique and in their own place of understanding.

Love is what prevails.

I was hoping for a few words in defense of Preterism, a Jesuit doctrine introduced about the same time as Jesuit Futurism, both as a desperate attempt to mitigate the crisis that erupted in the RCC due to the widespread preaching of the TRUTH of Protestant Historicism which was a dagger straight in the heart of the Papal beast.

Unfortunately, today both Jesuit Futurism and Jesuit Preterism are firmly held beliefs among "protestants" who are no longer protesting. What a shame that youth is wasted on the young.

 

[MatthewG]

Amen, brother. I have met Jesus. He radiated golden white light and when he gazed upon me my mind stopped. In that instant I felt Jesus peer into me. He saw me in my entirety. He knew my every thought, my every feeling - not just in that moment but in every moment of my existence. What's more, he made me aware that he knew. That moment I was stripped naked. There was nothing I could hide, nothing I could say, nothing I could do. I felt his love, but also his disappointment, since all my little white lies, all my excuses, all my failings, all my mistakes, all my BS was laid bare. I could not even justify myself since I knew he knew my thoughts before I did. All I could do was drop to my knees, face covered in tears, and cry out, "I'm sorry!"

It took me many years to process that experience. That is my knowledge of Jesus. That is my "road to Damascus" moment.

Thank you for sharing your testimony, LearningtoletGo, may the grace and peace of God be with you in this life as you continue forward.