Why don’t you believe Satan has been defeated?

[MatthewG]

I was hoping for a few words in defense of Preterism, a Jesuit doctrine introduced about the same time as Jesuit Futurism, both as a desperate attempt to mitigate the crisis that erupted in the RCC due to the widespread preaching of the TRUTH of Protestant Historicism which was a dagger straight in the heart of the Papal beast.

Unfortunately, today both Jesuit Futurism and Jesuit Preterism are firmly held beliefs among "protestants" who are no longer protesting. What a shame that youth is wasted on the young.

Hello Phoneman777,

Have learned over the years there is really no point in defending or fighting for ones beliefs. All one can really do is share them with others, and they have to think for themselves, go and seek out the information and most of all use the Bible as their reference and they can use history as well because there were living and breathing people founded in those early ages when Christ came, and also before Yeshua had came down from heaven. For me we are to Love God, first and foremost, and to Love others no matter who they may be or what they may believe, or even how they decide to live their own individual life.

What are Jesuit doctrine? When it comes to the Roman Catholic Church, I do not know much about their beliefs.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

To me it is a choice to read the Bible

It doesn’t always work that way for all of us. Sometimes I pick it up, despite having an odd aversion to do so, and I end up putting it back down because it’s just words, almost gobbledygook, without Him opening the words to me. Other times, I go to quick look up a specific verse and He opens it to me and I find two hours have passed reading.
I’ve learned to just not push it. If He isn’t wanting me to do a thing, no matter how badly I feel I want to muscle and push through, it just doesn’t work. I have seen it this way: sometimes He puts me on a fast. Not a fast from physical food, but a fast in spirit, where even if I feel great desire to read or pray or commune or eat a meal together, I can’t. I might get out a few words of prayer like…have mercy on me. Or I might sit there and just sigh and all that comes out is…I miss You I trust You. And I’ve learned to just rest in trust that He knows what He’s doing.

 

[ScottA]

@ScottA,

Remember when you explained that 1000 years basically means - fullness of time.

Considering this what it does mean, and (see Matthew 24:34) generation = 40 years, that would be the fullness of time of 1000 years which was a figurative number, just as the Psalm 50 [Verse 10]?



Would like your insight, thank you.

Not sure what aspect you mean.

But Time is as much an image and a vehicle of revelation as man is of God. It is the media of God's choosing to reveal all things to His children, as the reading of a story before bed, from which we awaken in the morning.

"This generation", that is, that generation which was the Time of Christ, is the moral and plot of all times leading to and from it. The plot unfolds to that generation, His generation, and then refolds until the fulness of the gentiles. Then comes the end. Not that I took it from Him, but rather that we both have it from God...but Jonathon Cahn explained it as Israel's history repeating to the gentiles in reverse. Therefore, Jesus said, the end would come "as the days of Noah."

Thus, when the scriptures say that those who are Christ's "were crucified with Him", that is exactly what it means--that is what is real with God, and only played out with men in their own times. For who is the Author of this story, and who is at the center, we or Him? Therefore, when He also said, "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." It was the truth just as He said it. But what then does that make every succeeding generation? It makes it a kind of rerun for "each in his own order" and time, just as Paul told us was true of the return of Christ to all who are His for all time.

This is also true of the saying, "before the foundation of the world."

But many remain captive within the illusion.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Have learned over the years there is really no point in defending or fighting for ones beliefs.

If you don’t mind me asking, how many years has it been since you came to God?

 

[MatthewG]

Not sure what aspect you mean.

But Time is as much an image and a vehicle of revelation as man is of God. It is the media of God's choosing to reveal all things to His children, as the reading of a story before bed, from which we awaken in the morning.

"This generation", that is, that generation which was the Time of Christ, is the moral and plot of all times leading to and from it. The plot unfolds to that generation, His generation, and then refolds until the fulness of the gentiles. Then comes the end. Not that I took it from Him, but rather that we both have it from God...but Jonathon Cahn explained it as Israel's history repeating to the gentiles in reverse. Therefore, Jesus said, the end would come "as the days of Noah."

Thus, when the scriptures say that those who are Christ's "were crucified with Him", that is exactly what it means--that is what is real with God, and only played out with men in their own times. For who is the Author of this story, and who is at the center, we or Him? Therefore, when He also said, "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." It was the truth just as He said it. But what then does that make every succeeding generation? It makes it a kind of rerun for "each in his own order" and time, just as Paul told us was true of the return of Christ to all who are His for all time.

This is also true of the saying, "before the foundation of the world."

But many remain captive within the illusion.

Thank you for your response.

Trying to articulate: There is no problem with people coming to Christ to the cross, learning how we are to die to our old former life, and live in the newness of life being raised up with Christ. Historically, as you pointed out, it would have to deal with his generation at that time. (I do not know who the person is you are referring to) To explain that Jesus is going to return now, like it was then (according to the Revelation).

This is the way I see the return now - from a fulfillment perspective -> not expecting Jesus to return again materially like he did in 70Ad, though we have no written historical account saying 'Jesus had come back we seen it', those who were there in that time would see Him come back (the bride of Christ in that day, the 144,000 pure, blameless, holy, even virgins).

So because of that being literal for them in that time and generation from (40 years) from when Jesus spoke about that generation in that time that none of what was stated by him would not pass away until those things come to pass, was true.

Now that we have the Lord Jesus Christ in our life, we are to Love God, and Love others - not really divide over differences with people though we can share what we have learned and people can receive it or reject it - eventually life comes to an end. That end is our material death where we have the experience were we leave this life and go on to the heavenly realm, perhaps that is the return spiritually applied today rather than a material return which I believe did happen in that day in age, though it is believed by faith.

My main question was how you looked at generation - from what has been taught to me it was 40 years - and considering that 1000 years - was figurative of 'fulness of time' - I believe that fulness of time was in the run when God sent the Word -> and Jesus was born in the flesh.

This may be just all confusing either way thank you for a moment of your time Sir.

 

[MatthewG]

If you don’t mind me asking, how many years has it been since you came to God?

It has been about 6 years now since coming to God.

In my earliest understanding of everything I did not know much, today I know a lot more than I use to due to God having answered my prayer to send me a teacher to learn from... because we do need someone to help us and teach us the word of God though many people have different ways of teachings. My first teacher was Paul washer, and though I do not believe like he does anymore, he was the one who sent me on the quest to figure out who Jesus Christ was.

I was in my room having a breakdown at looking with-in my heart that was void and full of darkness. Started reading the Bible and learning about Jesus but my heart had not changed much, I asked God to send me a teacher and a friend of mine named Shawn came about and he has taught me for the past 6 years. He was so adamant about not to believe him, and to go and seek out the information for yourself, and look at the Bible, and check history and learn about it because that is the only way one is going to come to the truth and Ask God to help you in the time that you are doing it.

I am to the point now in my life, where I enjoy to share a different perspective to others, here on the forums, even if God allows me to be able to read to my friends or neighbors the Bible or pray for people I even barely know, God has been so good to me, and through out my life with God who is with me through faith in the Lord Yeshua Christ. There has been ups and downs, and not understanding, and it has been a great time with Him, and all I can do is give him credit for having changed my life from the person who was going to end up probably on the streets, or in jail, or dead.

Paul Washer - 1 Hour

Shawn Mccranny - 6 minutes

Just for clarification again I do not think it is wrong to learn from others, but always think for yourself and make your own choice and always go to God and ask him and pray, and see what the Bible says.

Praise God for what he has done for the world, through his Son Jesus Christ and he desires for all to come to him.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It has been about 6 years now since coming to God.

In my earliest understanding of everything I did not know much, today I know a lot more than I use to due to God having answered my prayer to send me a teacher to learn from... because we do need someone to help us and teach us the word of God though many people have different ways of teachings. My first teacher was Paul washer, and though I do not believe like he does anymore, he was the one who sent me on the quest to figure out who Jesus Christ was.

I was in my room having a breakdown at looking with-in my heart that was void and full of darkness. Started reading the Bible and learning about Jesus but my heart had not changed much, I asked God to send me a teacher and a friend of mine named Shawn came about and he has taught me for the past 6 years. He was so adamant about not to believe him, and to go and seek out the information for yourself, and look at the Bible, and check history and learn about it because that is the only way one is going to come to the truth and Ask God to help you in the time that you are doing it.

I am to the point now in my life, where I enjoy to share a different perspective to others, here on the forums, even if God allows me to be able to read to my friends or neighbors the Bible or pray for people I even barely know, God has been so good to me, and through out my life with God who is with me through faith in the Lord Yeshua Christ. There has been ups and downs, and not understanding, and it has been a great time with Him, and all I can do is give him credit for having changed my life from the person who was going to end up probably on the streets, or in jail, or dead.

Paul Washer - 1 Hour

Shawn Mccranny - 6 minutes

Just for clarification again I do not think it is wrong to learn from others, but always think for yourself and make your own choice and always go to God and ask him and pray, and see what the Bible says.

I am going to have to let you go the direction you are going, but I have one more thing to say. You have not even read your Bible for yourself, just parts of it over the course of 6 years. So you have no idea if this man is telling you the truth. You never sat down and asked God to clear up your confusion. You never waited for the Holy Spirit to teach you. I think you should immediately change your course and your habit of just accepting what men tell you and start asking God your questions, not men. I have seen how stubborn you are and how hard your forehead is. My counsel is to use that stubbornness to determine that you will hear only from God and will ask only Him. And you have seen and talked about the good He has done in you, so you KNOW He can be trusted. You say you have read the NT except for Acts, so I know you have read to beware the leaven/teaching of men. I counsel you to heed that warning now, not later, and just go to your Bible and to God and to put down YouTube videos and the teaching of men.
I have said all I’m going to say. The warning is there in the NT, more than once. Heed it.

 

[MatthewG]

Thank you for slapping me on the face, Stunnedbygrace. Continue as you are and may you go in peace, relying on the spirit and not the flesh. Take care.

 

[amadeus]

I am going to have to let you go the direction you are going, but I have one more thing to say. You have not even read your Bible for yourself, just parts of it over the course of 6 years. So you have no idea if this man is telling you the truth. You never sat down and asked God to clear up your confusion. You never waited for the Holy Spirit to teach you. I think you should immediately change your course and your habit of just accepting what men tell you and start asking God your questions, not men. I have seen how stubborn you are and how hard your forehead is. My counsel is to use that stubbornness to determine that you will hear only from God and will ask only Him. And you have seen and talked about the good He has done in you, so you KNOW He can be trusted. You say you have read the NT except for Acts, so I know you have read to beware the leaven/teaching of men. I counsel you to heed that warning now, not later, and just go to your Bible and to God and to put down YouTube videos and the teaching of men.
I have said all I’m going to say. The warning is there in the NT, more than once. Heed it.

Starting always at the very lowest of rooms!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Thank you for slapping me on the face, Stunnedbygrace. Continue as you are and may you go in peace, relying on the spirit and not the flesh. Take care.

Oh my gosh.
These imaginings that you are suffering persecution at my hands and I am spitting in your face and slapping your face are growing more frequent. You should stop that course you are on too.

 

[ScottA]

Thank you for your response.

Trying to articulate: There is no problem with people coming to Christ to the cross, learning how we are to die to our old former life, and live in the newness of life being raised up with Christ. Historically, as you pointed out, it would have to deal with his generation at that time. (I do not know who the person is you are referring to) To explain that Jesus is going to return now, like it was then (according to the Revelation).

This is the way I see the return now - from a fulfillment perspective -> not expecting Jesus to return again materially like he did in 70Ad, though we have no written historical account saying 'Jesus had come back we seen it', those who were there in that time would see Him come back (the bride of Christ in that day, the 144,000 pure, blameless, holy, even virgins).

So because of that being literal for them in that time and generation from (40 years) from when Jesus spoke about that generation in that time that none of what was stated by him would not pass away until those things come to pass, was true.

Now that we have the Lord Jesus Christ in our life, we are to Love God, and Love others - not really divide over differences with people though we can share what we have learned and people can receive it or reject it - eventually life comes to an end. That end is our material death where we have the experience were we leave this life and go on to the heavenly realm, perhaps that is the return spiritually applied today rather than a material return which I believe did happen in that day in age, though it is believed by faith.

My main question was how you looked at generation - from what has been taught to me it was 40 years - and considering that 1000 years - was figurative of 'fulness of time' - I believe that fulness of time was in the run when God sent the Word -> and Jesus was born in the flesh.

This may be just all confusing either way thank you for a moment of your time Sir.

Nothing in Time is "literal." It is rather as it was written from the beginning, man being made in God's image--it's all just an image of what is written. Time does not tick in the heaven--in God. It is an illusion not unlike a motion picture (image) of each person in their own time unfolded like so many sequels from Adam to Christ, and refolded from Christ and the gathering of the gentiles--all of which in heaven (the presence of God) is best described as "in the twinkling of an eye." Which too, is only a literary term to describe what has taken no time at all--because it actually doesn't exist with God, where all of this resides. Thus, we are as driven out from God into the words of a book that we each read in our own time until the end. But it is more like a dream--having no actual time, but only images, which we awaken from in the end. But the media--the words that are written--words do not fully describe.

So then, that "generation" of Christ...it was and is simply the plot to which all other generations look to, that pulls it all together in sum. Thus, one living many generations before Christ, would have looked forward with anticipation of that all-telling chapter of Christ. And likewise, one born some generations after Christ, looks backward to piece together all that they are just now experiencing in their own time. Which is what Paul eluded to saying, "but each man in his own order."

But this is all very abstract, the fast tracking of "all truth" which was only to unfold over millennia. Just know that Christ was correct in what He said, and that the scriptures often use past tense language to show the truth of all that would otherwise seem to occur in times, but do not. Each generation is given the opportunity to piece things together in part--but beware of the world and it's ways, which would have one believe that time is what is real, rather than the things of God in whom there exists "no shadow of turning"--no time. This is the very thing that has caused strong delusion during our time.

 

[MatthewG]

Interesting thoughts you shared here ScottA, though I can’t fully comprehend them. Appreciate you taking time to converse with me, I will be sharing a chapter from revelation dealing with thousand years a little later for others to see and consider.

As for Time - we live in a world of time, each day pass through and a new day is born for a new time, a time for everything remember the writing of Ecc. Seasons are new times of life, for example winter trees shed their leaves. Those old leaves fall to the ground and die, then you have spring and summer where everything comes back to life. A symbolic jester from God himself of resurrection.

The change we experience it seems is from the heart, and it is not so much of a feeling as most describe it, rather it is a knowing that you have been changed for the greater good of looking toward the eternal perspective, though there ages that come and go seemingly in this life, and also seemingly in the afterlife. Perhaps eternal is a life-during age, and as we are participating in that spiritual life during age, even in heaven there could be ages. Only time will tell as we sojourn in this life, Scott.

Thank you again for your time and patience and participation.

 

[MatthewG]

Some people were wondering about Satan being bound for 1000 years, in Revelation 20.

Will be sharing this in the fulfillment perspective.

Revelation 20 - - - - 1
Young's Literal Translation

1 Of all the chapters in Revelation, Chapter 20, though relatively short, is perhaps the most difficult to exegete properly. AS a direct result of this, there will be a number of suggested commentary references made in the notes below. [see commentary on Revelation Chapter 20 by Ken Gentry - THE MILLENNIUM EXAGGERATED (2)]

20: 1 And I saw a messenger coming down out of the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain over his hand, --- 2

2. - The major question every reader of Revelation must consider is whether verses 1-10 have occurred, are occurring today, or will occur in the future. Due to some of the language included herein ["Satan bound a thousand years" and "the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire"], most readers assume it's an impossibility for these things to have occurred already; Fulfillment supporters suggest that a contextual reading of these and other phrases make this stance not only viable but true relative to biblical and historical context. [See Revelation 1:18; Revelation 9:1]

2 and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary, and did bind him a thousand years, ---- 3

3 --- A thousand years is representational number to the Hebrews and has never meant one thousand literally. Instead, a thousand describes "the full amount" of something or "all of the thing involved." This is evidenced in Psalm 50:10 where we read "for every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills." Obviously, God owns the cattle on all hills, not just one thousand. So the first thing to realize is that one thousand can mean a number smaller or larger in scripture. This author would suggest that one thousand here represents a number of years shorter. CLA: Clarification [see Millennium] [see 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6; Revelation 12:9] [See commentary on Revelation 20:2, One Thousand]

3 and he cast him to the abyss, and did shut him up, and put a seal upon him, that he may not lead astray the nations any more, till the thousand years may be finished; and after these it behoveth him to be loosed a little time. ---- 4

4 - with the thousand years not being literally 1,000 years [out in the future - premillennialism], nor is it the nearly 2,000 years and counting to this present Church age [amillennialism/post-millennialism], this author suggest that it covers a scope of one authenticated biblical generation, which about 40 years in length. This parallels the one generation that God gave to the Jewish people to repent before judgment came upon their nation.

For the Church/Bride, then in its infancy, it was a generation in which growth and exansion of the GOspel took place in relative peace. Speaking of this expansion period [where Satan would be bound] Yeshua said in Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all this economy [not world] for a witness unto all tribes or ethnicities [not nations[, and then shall come the end." [see Daniel 6:17; Revelation 16:14; Revelation 16:16; Revelation 20:8]

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, -- 5

and the souls of those who have been beheaded --- 6

because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, --- 7

and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ --- 8

the thousand years; --- 9

5 - These thrones are not the throne [singluar] of God that is now in place. [Revelation 4] This line speaks to the pronouncing of judgement as John writes, "and judgement was given unto them." - [see Daniel 7:9] Clarification - [see Saints Judge The], [see Matthew 19:28, and 1 Corinthians 6:2]

6 - Note that John saw the souls of those beheaded, not the physically beheaded bodies.

7 - They did not engage with Nero or Rome [see Revelation 13] and accept their demands.

8 - Note they reigned with Christ for a span of time. Where was Christ during the thousand years? He had ascended. So those who were martyred [Stephen, Acts 7:59, etc.] were in heaven reigning with Christ over the Bride until the period of time ended.

9 - Forty years or the span of the time between Yeshua's ascension and return [see Daniel 7:9; 22; 27; Matthew 19:28; Luke 22:30, Romans 8:17; 1 Corinthians 6:2-3;2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 5:10; 6:9; 13:12, 15-16]

 

[MatthewG]

Revelation 20: Previous : #213

5 and the rest of the dead -- 10

did not live again --- 11

till the thousand years may be finished --- 12

; this [is] the first rising again. -- 13

10 - Those who died without faith and were sheol.

11 - Did not experience resurrection yet.

12 - Which would be at his return and at the Great White Throne judgement.

13 - The line, [as well as verse 6 to follow[ "this is the first resurrection," refers to those described in verse four where John says ."And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness of Yeshua, and for the word of YHWH, who had not worshipped the best or his image, nor had they received its mark on their foreheads or in their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Not to those were not made alive yet.

6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. -- 14

14 - The clear message of this passage is that those in that day who remained dedicated to Christ and died, between the time of His ascension and return [forty years], would be of the first resurrection p there would be more to follow], and these special souls would reign with YHWH and Christ during that period. We can se that from this that the first resurrection was held in reserve for those Christians of faith who remained true to Christ and His word, and kept themselves [unspotted and unattached to Roman and/or Nero]. Their immediate afterlife reward was to be resurrected [first] and to reign with YHWH and Christ until the end of the forty years when Yeshua would return. [see Isaiah 61:6; 1 Peter 2:9; Revelation 1:6; 2:11, 5:10, 20:4, 21:8]

7 And when the thousand years may be finished,-- 15

the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison, -- 16

15 - The full period of time [of about forty years].

16 - And he would be extremely agitated when he would be released [about 67 AD right when all hell broke loose on Israel] because he knew his time was short [Revelation 12:12] [see Revelation 20:2]

8 and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog --- 17

-- to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea; --- 18

17 - This battle is the fulfillment of the battle described in Ezekiel 7, which was a type and shadow of this final battle that would come upon Jerusalem. Clarification [see Gog and Magog] [see commentary on Revelation 20:8 - God and Magog.

18 - An example of Hebrew hyperbole, which is another way to say "a lot". [see Ezekiel 38:2; 39:1; Revelation 16:14; 20:3, 10]

 

[MatthewG]

Revelation 20: previous - #214

9 and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them; -- 19

19 - There are two expressions that occurred that day: fire came down from heaven and consumed the faithless, which was fire that came down from the Roman armies by way of their catapults, and also a holy fire that came down and consumed the saints in what could be seen as the rapture of the Church Bride or the faithful, who Yeshua and His apostles promised would return and receive her as His own and which would occur in the twinkling of and eye. [1 Corinthians 15:5] This would also be part of the first resurrection which would commence at the second Coming of the Lord. [see Isaiah 8:8; Ezekiel 38:9, 16]

10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages. --- 20

20 - - This is describing the consummation of that age, where the major players - the beast, the false prophet, and the Devil - are all cast into the Lake of Fire, which was made for them. This would be the end of SAtan and his reign and power over humankind as Christ had the ultimate victory at His coming. This verse brings us to the conclusion of the former age under the Law and the Prophets and opens us up the Kingdom Age, a place where Christ has had the ultimate victory over sin and death.

We're about the read about the judgement of the unfaithful who were apart of that former age and what they experienced then.

This doesn't describe our future, or the future of anyone after Christ came and took his bride. [see 1 Corinthians 15:23-26] [see Revelation 14:10-11;Revelation 19:20] [see commentary on Revelation 20:10 Understanding Ages]

11 And I saw a great white throne, --- 21

and Him -- 22

who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them; -- 23

21 - This is the only place in scripture where the great white throne is mentioned. It appears to represent the absolute justice and mercy of the Living God and those who would stand before Him in that day.

22 - We note the singularity of the one on the Great White throne in the word, "Him." HIs purpose o the throne is to judge. However scripture is plain to say that Christ will be the judge [Romans 2:16; 14:10; 2 Timothy 4:1], but then also God [Acts 10:42]. Thee passages are not inconsistent as YHWH is now fully embedded in the deified flesh of HIs Son, and sits on the throne as the Lord God Almighty [Revelation 4:8; 11:17; 15:3; 16:7; 21:22] once and for all. [1 Corinthians 15:15-28]

12 and I saw the dead, --- 23

small and great, standing before God, --- 24

and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, -- 25

and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works; -- 26

23 - In verses 12-15, "death" is mentioned three times and "Dead" is mentioned four. These passages are speaking of those who passed death in sin; all who from the time of Adam up to Christ's arrival, died and went to sheol [hades, hell] without faith.

24 - [see note above on verse 11 relative to the one on the throne]

25 - [see Daniel 7:10]

26 - These "dead" could not be deemed righteous by faith so YHWH judged them according to their deeds or labors in mortality [see Jeremiah 17:10; Jeremiah 32:19; Daniel 7:10; Matthew 16:27; Romans 2:6; Philippians 4:3, Revelation 2:23; 3:5; 13:8; 19:5; 20:13; 21:27; 22:12]

13 and the sea -- 27

did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them,-- 28

and they were judged, each one according to their works; -- 29

27 - The sea in the Book of Revelation is usually a symbol of the Gentile Nations, so this reference could be to specify that at this judgment all Gentiles were also judged. [see Gentile Representation]

28 - At the return of Christ to Jerusalem, only those were dead in sin went to the prison position of sheol or hell. that is who is being judged here and now. We note this is all happening prior to Johns revelation of the New Heaven and New earth, which he will see in the next chapter. This also points out that hell, at this point was emptied out.

29 - [see Revelation 6:8; 20:12]

14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death; --- 30

30 - the first death could be seen either as being born spiritually dead or when a person dies physically. The second death in's fully understood in terms of description or ramification. Because it is applied to the people of the former age who's names were not found in the Lambs book of life, we might see it as apart and parcel of that age and having little to no bearing on people today. Clarification - [see Second Death] [see 1 Corinthians 15:26; 54-55; Revelation 2:11; 20:6,14; 21:8]

15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire. -- 31

31 Revelation 21:8 describes the Lake of Fire experience as people only receiving "their part" of it. This suggest that when a person who went to this setting, it was only temporary as it was created not for human but for SAtan and his angels. [Matthew 25:41] [see Revelation 19:20; 20:10, 14]

 

[Phoneman777]

Hello Phoneman777,

Have learned over the years there is really no point in defending or fighting for ones beliefs. All one can really do is share them with others, and they have to think for themselves, go and seek out the information and most of all use the Bible as their reference and they can use history as well because there were living and breathing people founded in those early ages when Christ came, and also before Yeshua had came down from heaven. For me we are to Love God, first and foremost, and to Love others no matter who they may be or what they may believe, or even how they decide to live their own individual life.

What are Jesuit doctrine? When it comes to the Roman Catholic Church, I do not know much about their beliefs.

A bit of church history is needed to understand the significance of Jesuit ideology and its influence on eschatology:

After many centuries of a corrupt Papal reign, in 1517 Martin Luther began a protest against the Papacy that avalanched into what became known as the "Protestant Reformation". Many Catholics threw away their rosary beads and became Bible believing Christians. While there were many things that defined it, two doctrines became known as The Twin Pillars of the Protestant Reformation:

1. Salvation is by grace through faith alone, not of works.
2. The papacy is the Antichrist of Bible prophecy

These beliefs became known as "Protestant Historicism" and by the preaching of it, so many Catholics left the Roman Catholic church that by the mid-16th century, the crisis had become so widespread that Rome finally had enough. They launched the "Counter-Reformation" which sole purpose was to destroy the Protestant Reformation. Rome needed an alternative eschatological interpretation of prophecy, so they commissioned the Jesuits to come up with one. Jesuit priest Alcazar came up with the idea that the Antichrist arose in the 1st century, Jesus had already come back, and all the prophecies have been fulfilled - otherwise known as "Jesuit Preterism". Jesuit priest Ribera came up with a different idea, saying the Antichrist would arise at the end of time during the "last seven years of tribulation" and sit in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and make a 7 year peace treaty between the Arabs and Jews, which he would break and usher in Armageddon, etc., etc. - otherwise known as "Jesuit Futurism". There is no record that exists of either of these ideas being preached anywhere before these Jesuits authored them.

Protestant Historicism beat back these two Jesuit lies for over 300 years, but by the 19th century, Jesuit Futurism began to infiltrate Christianity and by the end of the 20th century, Protestant Historicism has all but been forgotten. Jesuit Preterism began taking hold a few decades ago, gaining much momentum with the publishing of "The Last Disciple" which incidentally was published by the same company who published the Lehey/Jenkins "Left Behind" series.

So, there you have it: the origin of the three main eschatological schools of thought, each claiming to trace its roots back to Palestine. Personally, since Rome has failed to get right the most fundamental doctrine of all Christianity - salvation by grace through faith - I don't see why ANYONE would think the Jesuits or anyone else would have a snowball's chance in hell when it comes to correctly interpreting Bible end times prophecy.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

8 - Note they reigned with Christ for a span of time. Where was Christ during the thousand years? He had ascended. So those who were martyred [Stephen, Acts 7:59, etc.] were in heaven reigning with Christ over the Bride until the period of time ended.

16 Avoid worthless, foolish talk that only leads to more godless behavior.17 This kind of talk spreads like cancer, as in the case of Hymenaeus and Philetus. 18 They have left the path of truth, claiming that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred; in this way, they have turned some people away from the faith.

6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!

 

[MatthewG]

A bit of church history is needed to understand the significance of Jesuit ideology and its influence on eschatology:

After many centuries of a corrupt Papal reign, in 1517 Martin Luther began a protest against the Papacy that avalanched into what became known as the "Protestant Reformation". Many Catholics threw away their rosary beads and became Bible believing Christians. While there were many things that defined it, two doctrines became known as The Twin Pillars of the Protestant Reformation:

1. Salvation is by grace through faith alone, not of works.
2. The papacy is the Antichrist of Bible prophecy

These beliefs became known as "Protestant Historicism" and by the preaching of it, so many Catholics left the Roman Catholic church that by the mid-16th century, the crisis had become so widespread that Rome finally had enough. They launched the "Counter-Reformation" which sole purpose was to destroy the Protestant Reformation. Rome needed an alternative eschatological interpretation of prophecy, so they commissioned the Jesuits to come up with one. Jesuit priest Alcazar came up with the idea that the Antichrist arose in the 1st century, Jesus had already come back, and all the prophecies have been fulfilled - otherwise known as "Jesuit Preterism". Jesuit priest Ribera came up with a different idea, saying the Antichrist would arise at the end of time during the "last seven years of tribulation" and sit in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and make a 7 year peace treaty between the Arabs and Jews, which he would break and usher in Armageddon, etc., etc. - otherwise known as "Jesuit Futurism". There is no record that exists of either of these ideas being preached anywhere before these Jesuits authored them.

Protestant Historicism beat back these two Jesuit lies for over 300 years, but by the 19th century, Jesuit Futurism began to infiltrate Christianity and by the end of the 20th century, Protestant Historicism has all but been forgotten. Jesuit Preterism began taking hold a few decades ago, gaining much momentum with the publishing of "The Last Disciple" which incidentally was published by the same company who published the Lehey/Jenkins "Left Behind" series.

So, there you have it: the origin of the three main eschatological schools of thought, each claiming to trace its roots back to Palestine. Personally, since Rome has failed to get right the most fundamental doctrine of all Christianity - salvation by grace through faith - I don't see why ANYONE would think the Jesuits or anyone else would have a snowball's chance in hell when it comes to correctly interpreting Bible end times prophecy.

Huh, never heard of it. Thank you for taking time to explain to me sir.

 

[MatthewG]

16 Avoid worthless, foolish talk that only leads to more godless behavior.17 This kind of talk spreads like cancer, as in the case of Hymenaeus and Philetus. 18 They have left the path of truth, claiming that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred; in this way, they have turned some people away from the faith.

Thank you for sharing Stunned.

 

[MatthewG]

Don’t lose faith, don’t turn away from faith, one day you will be rewarded for sticking it through and serving God having love for God and love for others.

Be encouaged.