Why don’t you believe Satan has been defeated?

[MatthewG]

Matthew, when will Creation be liberated from its bondage to decay and corruption (Romans 8:19-22)?

Where will the Resurrection of the dead and the new spiritual body take place?

I answered that. At death, we do part take in the spirit now being born again. We are going to die and be judged given a spiritual body and I believe people are translated into the third heaven, the heavenly realm, and inside the kingdom of that heavenly realm is where God resides in the new Jerusalem.

What do you believe will happen or take place?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I don’t know how they get around what you shared there stunnedbygrace.

I shared a verse. The verse talks about our new bodies in the future. I don’t think scripture is something to be gotten around. I actually look forward to the verse with happiness.

But in reading the thread again, I have remembered how I used to think. Sometimes I have to think really hard about how I used to think because I’ve almost forgotten. My thought used to be…satan? Forget about it, I’m my own worst enemy! That was before God showed me how extremely subtle satan was and how he manipulates our minds and our emotions and keeps us oppressed and hindered that way. He can’t possess us, demons can’t possess us, but they can seek to influence us, through our mind and emotions that still have some unhealed and unrenewed places. It’s subtle to be an enemy of a man and to do your damage from the shadows so the man doesn’t even think you’re there.

But here’s the thing - God doesn’t have us fully see that right at the start. He doesn’t have us see that war going on because we would become frightened and turn back. There’s a verse that talks about the spirit of this. It’s in Exodus. It says: When Pharaoh finally let the people go, God did not lead them along the main road that runs through Philistine territory, even though that was the shortest route to the Promised Land. God said, “If the people are faced with a battle, they might change their minds and return to Egypt.” The battle would scare them and they would turn back to the place of bondage again because their trust was still too wobbly.

So I’m questioning the wisdom of trying to get you to see things you aren’t ready for. You have said in a lot of places that “this just scares people.” And I think I should have been able to hear that better and put it together that you weren’t ready and not try to get you to see what you couldn’t yet.

But there’s another part to it. You attempt to teach others and so at least some answer has to be given, at least for the sake of those who might run with what you say and be held back. So…I guess it’s a matter of US needing to learn how to manage and balance it but without…trying to push you out of the nest before you’re ready.
It’s the more mature, who have had their senses trained to discern good from evil, who can see the subtle tactics of satan, who need to learn here how to handle it. Maybe WE have made some mistakes in this and have not done correctly. After all, when the prophet wanted a man to see the spiritual war being waged all around them but that there was no need to be afraid, he didn’t try to convince the man. Instead, he prayed.
16 “Don’t be afraid!” Elisha told him. “For there are more on our side than on theirs!”17 Then Elisha prayed, “O Lord, open his eyes and let him see!” The Lord opened the young man’s eyes, and when he looked up, he saw that the hillside around Elisha was filled with horses and chariots of fire.

So maybe any fault here is more on the part of the more mature…who might not be as mature as they think!

 

[MatthewG]

I shared a verse. The verse talks about our new bodies in the future. I don’t think scripture is something to be gotten around. I actually look forward to the verse with happiness.

But in reading the thread again, I have remembered how I used to think. Sometimes I have to think really hard about how I used to think because I’ve almost forgotten. My thought used to be…satan? Forget about it, I’m my own worst enemy! That was before God showed me how extremely subtle satan was and how he manipulates our minds and our emotions and keeps us oppressed that way. He can’t possess us, demons can’t possess us, but they can seek to influence us, through our mind and emotions that still have some unhealed and unrenewed places. It’s subtle to be an enemy of a man and to do your damage from the shadows so the man doesn’t even think you’re there.

But here’s the thing - God doesn’t have us fully see that right at the start. He doesn’t have us see that war going on because we would become frightened and turn back. There’s a verse that talks about the spirit of this. It’s in Exodus. It says: When Pharaoh finally let the people go, God did not lead them along the main road that runs through Philistine territory, even though that was the shortest route to the Promised Land. God said, “If the people are faced with a battle, they might change their minds and return to Egypt.” The battle would scare them and they would turn back to the place of bondage again because their trust was still too wobbly.

So I’m questioning the wisdom of trying to get you to see things you aren’t ready for. You have said in a lot of places that “this just scares people.” And I think I should have been able to hear that better and put it together that you weren’t ready and not try to get you to see what you couldn’t yet.

But there’s another part to it. You attempt to teach others and so at least some answer has to be given, at least for the sake of those who might run with what you say and be held back. So…I guess it’s a matter of US needing to learn how to manage and balance it but without…trying to push you out of the nest before you’re ready.
It’s the more mature, who have had their senses trained to discern good from evil, who can see the subtle tactics of satan, who need to learn here how to handle it. Maybe WE have made some mistakes in this and have not done correctly. After all, when the prophet wanted a man to see the spiritual war being waged all around them but that there was no need to be afraid, he didn’t try to convince the man. Instead, he prayed.
16 “Don’t be afraid!” Elisha told him. “For there are more on our side than on theirs!”17 Then Elisha prayed, “O Lord, open his eyes and let him see!” The Lord opened the young man’s eyes, and when he looked up, he saw that the hillside around Elisha was filled with horses and chariots of fire.

So maybe any fault here is more on the part of the more mature…who might not be as mature as they think!

Thank you for taking time to write, stunnedbygrace.

As I’m gonna state for the last time and try to stay off here the rest of the day if possible.


No one should believe me, and all people should be encouraged to seek what the Bible says, and that is all I can really encourage.

For me in my own individual life, right now today standing here writing I don’t believe Satan still reigns nor his angels.

The Bible talks about His defeat and many people don’t believe it, if they would it probably mean they have more freedom and responsibility for what they do for God knowing that Satan and his angels are indeed gone, along with false prophet and the beast.

Revelation says it: most don’t believe it…

Darkness still exist - look that work in Hebrew - it is the light one needs that brings forth spiritual life that produces fruit, of the Holy Spirit. The darkness that causes the heart to have evil thoughts is instilled in our Childhood.

Don’t believe me though believe Yahweh who said it: Genesis 8:21

My encouragement to all people is to read the Bible see what it says and May Gods grace be with all of you.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The Bible talks about His defeat and many people don’t believe it

It’s not that they don’t believe it. I mean, who could be saved and look back over the years and decades since and see where they are and where they were and see how He has miraculously and incrementally healed all the places in themselves where bitterness and turmoil and fear were but aren’t now, and not see that God hasn’t defeated the enemy at every turn, no matter how slow it seemed to them that He did it at times?

There are three enemies, as the verse says - the world, the flesh and the devil.
There is a fourth, and it will be thrown into the lake of fire in the end, as the verse says. The fourth is death. When it’s gone, as the verse says, death will be swallowed up by eternal life. No death ever again for anyone.

 

[MatthewG]

It’s not a hill to die on.

Just a stance that is taken that is outside the social normality of what people believe, to believe in the total victory of Christ Yeshua now today for all individuals. That means he has overcame Death (all of it) - One will die eventually but he was resurrected thus all people be will resurrected. Faithful and Faithless. Yeshua has overcame and paid for the sin debt - for all - faithless and faithful. Yeshua has defeated Satan and his angels, they are no longer around, but Darkness still exist. Yeshua has overcame hell/Sheol/hades the grave.

The only thing that remains in this life is faithful people, and faithless people, Light and Dark, the Flesh (the worldly ways), and the Spirit (the heavenly ways).

If you don’t believe this it’s fine: but it what is accepted in my own individual life and we wrestle not with flesh and blood: but the Darkness, not Satan… or his angels.

So please if you believe Satan still exist by all means continue to believe so; but don’t try to force me under the burdened of having to accept that you believe he still exist and still around.

Thank you,
Matthew Gallagher

 

[Jay Ross]

From what the Bible says Jay Ross,

People are shakable, when they are introduced to new ideas, and outlooks on the Bible that can literally shake them.

A lot of that shaking has to do with traditions that they have heard through out their lives, and have learned from other people if they have not taken the time to look and see what the Bible states.

A book that is recommended : which people can take with a grain of salt but may change their perspective if they allow it to but it is for the betterment of learning what the Word of God does say, without having to do the study themselves.

https://www.amazon.com/Christianitys-Great-Dilemma-Jesus-Coming/dp/1453873740

Saying that is my truth is not true at all, it is what Jesus states, and what the apostles state that makes the difference.

If people have a problem what what is presented here, they should just reject it and walk away, because if I am presented with a question it is up to me to decide how to answer another individual even in real life.

If someone asks me do you really believe Jesus came back, I would tell them yes. To go against what I believe is not being authentic and honest with myself or others.

MatthewG you have just promoted the book, Christianity's Great Dilemma: Is Jesus Coming Again or Is He Not? It is a book which holds to a Preterist's understanding of how God's Prophetic Timeline unfolds by claiming that all Biblical Prophecy has already been fulfilled. From my own research the Preterist's understanding is flawed because of their wrong understanding of scripture. The author claims that Jesus returned within the lifetime of the disciples because of the way they have understood Matt. 24:33 where they have assumed that the Greek word "Genea" is a reference to a "descendant generation," yet in the LXX it was used in Gen 15:16 in the place of the Hebrew word "wə·ḏō·wr" which has the meaning of an "Age," which has a duration of just over 1,000 years.

However, when I consider John 2:18-22 I come to a very different understanding to what many Biblical commentators believe.

In this passage Jesus used as a sign post the sign of the Jews causing the Temple to be destroyed, as confirmation that He would rebuild the Temple of His Disciples around 3,000 years into the future, i.e. in three Days of the Lord. The Temple was not destroyed by the Jews until around 40 years later in 70 AD so Jesus was not speaking of the resurrection of His body from the Tomb after his crucifixion.

We also know from Exodus 20:4-6 that the iniquities of the fathers continual idolatrous worship during the first 2,000 or so years of the existence of Israel after Isaac's birth would result in the visitation of those iniquities upon the father's children and the children's children during the following 2,000 plus years, after which God would incline His ears to their petitions and then Gather them to Himself.

Now the preterist understanding that Satan has already been defeated, which is the argument that you are attempting to show in this thread, is not biblically as sound as you are attempting to show as it is based on a flawed premises as I have just demonstrated with two Biblical passages with one passage from the NT and the second passage from the Old Testament.

In Matthew 24 Jesus is answer the question as to when the Kingdom of God would be established on the earth. In Matt 24:32 he answered that question and pointed to a time when Gen 15:16 would be fulfilled 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac. and confirmed by history, with the fig tree beginning to bud once again and then Christ provided the time span from that event until the Everlasting Kingdom of God would be established around 90 + years later at the beginning of the Seventh Age. This 90 + year period is hidden within the context of this one verse prophecy.

It is at this time that Satan and his follower angels will be judged in heaven and the kings of the earth on the earth and that they will be gathered together and imprisoned for many days in the Bottomless pit, i.e. for 1,000 years, and when the the Bottomless pit is unlocked after the passing of this 1,000 years period, Satan will rage and begin to trample over God's earth as if he was undefeated until he is captured by Christ and cast into the Lake of fire to join the beast and the False prophet who had also just be captured by Christ. It is at this point that Satan is defeated.

It is this timeline that is clearly set out in the scriptures for those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. The Preterists neither hear or see what is written within the scriptures concerning the End Times as the understanding of the scriptures has not been revealed to them yet.

MatthewG, the scriptures reveal your lack of understanding and wisdom as to when Satan will be finally defeated.

Shalom

 

[MatthewG]

May I ask you a question @Jay Ross?

 

[face2face]

Who do you believe satan is? Who was it that tempted Jesus? (and originally Eve?)
Jesus was sinless and so was the woman, so I cannot see a way that either of them were tempted by a quality of evil within......what other more scriptural possibilities do you believe there are?

Jesus and James disagree with you Jane.

Matthew 15:11 & Mark 7:20 (its what comes out of the man which defiles him)
James 1:14 (drawn away by his own lust)

John 8:43 Why don’t you understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot accept (hear) my teaching.

Why couldn't they "hear" Jane? and what "father" is Jesus alluding to?
If the listeners in John 8 are not of God - John 8:47 what are they from?
If this father speaks according to his own nature John 8:44 what type of nature are we talking about?
Jesus calls it a false accuser (devil) in John 8:44? Why in this context does Jesus use false accuser and not adversary (satan)?

John 8:55 you do not know him, but I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you.

To be honest I am a little surprised you haven't shown your usual standard of insight on these texts! It looks like you will defend church tradition? It's been well and truly established that the Christian idea of a fiery supernatural being is nowhere taught in the OT. Even @Bob Carabbio nervously lent on Isaiah 14 full well knowing his position in the OT is extremely weak. The Torah is silent! Don't you find it odd Bob went to the Gospel of John to try to prove his devil? The truth is he doesn't have a clue about the teaching of the Lord in John 8, and is as deaf as those listeners who literally couldn't hear the Lord's teaching! Matthew 12:34...what don't they have Jane?

 

[Jay Ross]

May I ask you a question @Jay Ross?

Yes, you can ask a question, but whether or not I will respond to your question will depend on what you ask.

 

[MatthewG]

Yes, you can ask a question, but whether or not I will respond to your question will depend on what you ask.

Thanks, I was just wondering what you thought about a single verse of scripture. Reading through Matthew again and last night it had came back up.

Jesus had just chosen his 12 disciples, and in verse 23 he tells them this:


“When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:23‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Was wondering how you would explain this? Because to me it seems to me that Jesus would return before they would even have hit up all the towns of Israel.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Christians never sin?

Not sins of lawlessness, NO! Read this carefully Bob. Do NOT reason it away with a human understanding that doesn't understand a supernatural God. Sins of lawlessness are sins unto death. Those are the sins that we lost the desire to commit when Jesus gave us a new heart called partaking of the divine nature, if indeed, He was invited to do so. As Paul said, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Paul and John taught the opposite of what modern teachers teach us to fill the pews of those with itching ears.

1 John 3:
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

 

[Jay Ross]

Thanks, I was just wondering what you thought about a single verse of scripture. Reading through Matthew again and last night it had came back up.

Jesus had just chosen his 12 disciples, and in verse 23 he tells them this:


“When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:23‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Was wondering how you would explain this? Because to me it seems to me that Jesus would return before they would even have hit up all the towns of Israel.

Matthew I cannot take a single verse out of the bible and build a theological understanding around that verse by ignoring that one verse's relationship and dependency with other biblical verses in establishing its true understanding.

I cannot come to understand this verse if I believe that all prophecy has already been fulfilled which is the Preterist's understanding. The Preterist lens of understanding ignores the time line/spans given in the scriptures and consequently try and fit all prophecy re the future into past historical events. Glenn L. Hill's book was endorsed by a avid Preterists who agreed with Glenn's conclusions.

The prophecies like Ezekiel 47:1-12 and Daniel 12:7 all point to a distant future ending when the earth will be restored back to God's original creation. This ending is still over 1,000 + years into our future which is generally beyond our ability to comprehend.

We need to understand what the "end" is in the previous verse that Christ was referring to.

Matthew 24 also points to a distant future ending which is also around 1,000 + years into our future.

If you want to accept the Preterists perspective that Jesus was only talking to His disciples in the verse that you have referenced then you are sadly mistaken.

Why were the Gospel written? They were written by to tell the story of Christ's first advent and they were also written to encourage the believers that the end was in the distant future, some 3,000 + years from their time.

The Gospel were written for the believers that would follow in the steps of the 12 disciples over the next 3,000 + years.

You need to get a new pair of glasses to read the scriptures with so that scriptural passages can be seen clearly without the bias lens of authors like Glenn L. Hill.

You have often given the advice that readers of your posts should do their own study to prove or disprove the reliability of what you have posted. It seems to me that you have not followed your own advice.

Shalom

 

[MatthewG]

Didn’t you also just take one verse to make a theological understanding?

There is more than just one verse dealing with second coming coming in that day in Age.

Amazing how we as human beings work, Jay.

Anyway, God bless.

 

[Jay Ross]

Didn’t you also just take one verse to make a theological understanding?

Amazing how we as human beings work, Jay.

Anyway, God bless.

I used one biblical passage followed by a single verse followed by a whole bible chapter to arrive at the same conclusion.

As for your false claim that I am using one verse to make a theological understanding, then identify the one verse that I used to made that theological understanding from so that others can see whether or not your claim is true. I believe that you are using a false argument to defend your own premises that you tout and push on this forum.

Oh well, the outcome from you was what i have come to expect.

Good bye for now.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I used one biblical passage followed by a single verse followed by a whole bible chapter to arrive at the same conclusion.

As for your false claim that I am using one verse to make a theological understanding, then identify the one verse that I used to made that theological understanding from so that others can see whether or not your claim is true. I believe that you are using a false argument to defend your own premises that you tout and push on this forum.

Oh well, the outcome from you was what i have come to expect.

Good bye for now.

Jay, he hasn’t read all of the Bible, so he can’t really know if what he pushes is true. He doesn’t really like it when verses are posted. He’s said many times he prefers people use their own words rather than verses. Bizarre, I know.
And now he will say I am persecuting him again and slapping his face and spitting on him.

 

[MatthewG]

I don’t have time to debate, nor care to honestly.

Believe what you will, sir.

May Gods grace and peace be with you.

 

[Bob Estey]

Not sins of lawlessness, NO! Read this carefully Bob. Do NOT reason it away with a human understanding that doesn't understand a supernatural God. Sins of lawlessness are sins unto death. Those are the sins that we lost the desire to commit when Jesus gave us a new heart called partaking of the divine nature, if indeed, He was invited to do so. As Paul said, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Paul and John taught the opposite of what modern teachers teach us to fill the pews of those with itching ears.

1 John 3:
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.

13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

What's the difference between a sin of lawlessness and other sins?

 

[Jay Ross]

I don’t have time to debate, nor care to honestly.

Believe what you will, sir.

May Gods grace and peace be with you.

MatthewG, I do not need your barbs and dishonesty towards me.

People are getting your measure and know that you have no substance to back up what you write or claim.

 

[face2face]

Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
2 Samuel 24:1

Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel. 1 Chronicles 21:2

God (satan) cannot defeat God.

If only you lot knew the truth concerning the doctrine of satan this whole thread wouldn't even exist. I get how Yahweh can sit and laugh at the folly of his children.

 

[MatthewG]

The Bible states the defeat of Satan…

Or the doing away of Satan, the beast and false prophet.

So there is no real argument other than “it has not happened”.

Revelation 20:10.

There are view main views of revelation.

Idealist, Historicist, pretrist, and futurist.

There is a book, on the main first post people can consider, and on the return of Christ there’s also a book by Glenn Hill. (Christianity greatest Dilemma - which sights all the scripture pertains to Christ and his coming.

There is also historical accounts Josephus, Suetonius, Cassio Dio, and Tacitus.

There is also historical church “father” accounts to pertaining to quotes about how Jerusalems fall was pretty much when Jesus has returned. “Though we have no quoting from anyone that they seen him come back - only believers looking in that day in Age would have seen him come back, within that region”

It is just believed by Faith Jesus came and saved his bride like he said he would in a generation of time, as Jesus stated, and his apostles.

People are going to believe what they desire or want to be, and I have no judgment to call on anyone.

Love God and love others.