Spotting Heretics

[Ferris Bueller]

How about if you take what I have written and prove it to be wrong instead of just giving your opinion; which consisted of 5 words?

"15If your brother sins against you..." Matthew 18:15

I don't see anything in the passage about if your brother disagrees with your church's official doctrine. But I'm bracing myself for when you make it mean that, lol.

 

[Marymog]

"15If your brother sins against you..." Matthew 18:15

I don't see anything in the passage about if your brother disagrees with your church's official doctrine. But I'm bracing myself for when you make it mean that, lol.

Well, first off Ferris, that is not a passage.

Those are 6 words of a 20 or so words (depending on which translation you pick) of a passage that is connected to several other passages that have to be put into context.

Nice Try...you should take a day off Ferris Bueller.

 

[Marymog]

The passage plainly says when a brother sins against you, lol. No interpretation needed. But you Catholics feel the need to change it and say it means when someone has a differing doctrinal belief. Or is that just you that is changing it?

The point is, you prove the reality of our differing levels of knowledge. And, it addresses the other point we were discussing that not being knowledgeable doesn't instantly equate to being a liar, just uneducated about something. That is why I asked you if you are lying about the passage or just not knowledgeable about it.

You make absolutely no sense Ferris. YES, that passage says when a brother sins against you. Therefor we don't need to look at any other words from that passage or the passages surrounding it.

Peter is Satan also....Matthew 16:23....That The passage plainly says he is!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Well, first off Ferris, that is not a passage.

Those are 6 words of a 20 or so words (depending on which translation you pick) of a passage

You're grasping, lol.
We have been discussing Matthew 18:15-17. Let me refresh your memory as to the passage that we are talking about...
↓↓↓

Are you lying, or do you just not know that Matthew 18:15-17 directs us to consider someone a pagan or tax collector if they refuse to reconcile with us when they've wronged us, not when someone is at a different stage of knowledge of Christ?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You make absolutely no sense Ferris. YES, that passage says when a brother sins against you. Therefor we don't need to look at any other words from that passage or the passages surrounding it.

So the rest of the chapter makes it so Jesus is actually talking about when a person does not agree with the Catholic church's doctrine rather than what it actually says (them sinning against us)?

 

[Marymog]

I know you are asking Scott, but my answer is, no, it made a very quick decline, lol. Just as Paul said it would.
When the gentiles took over the church leadership they led it away from the truths of scripture.


No. Enlightened men had the courage to take it back from the corruption of the Catholic institution! And praise God for them! I am absolutely sickened by what the Catholic church has done to Christianity. I'm not exaggerating. I feel sick inside when I read about what the Catholic organization believes and teaches.


So that means NONE of them have any truth, then, right?
Your logic is so short sided.

Thanks for chiming in Ferris. Your lack of logic and knowledge are on full display.

I get the gist of what you are saying about The Church making a very quick decline. But your logic makes no sense. Just because some men began to teach a false doctrine or taught something different than what the Apostles were teaching, that does not mean that The Church went into decline. That does not mean the Truth stopped being taught. It just means that some men started teaching false doctrines. Paul was teaching the Truth to men like Titus and Timothy. Christian history shows us that Clement, Ignatius and Polycarp were also students of the Apostles so it is safe to say they were taught the Truth. So even though SOME men started teaching lies, that does not mean the Truth stopped being taught or known (John 8:32).

There is no evidence to back up your assertation that gentiles led Christianity away from the Truth....That is a bizarre theory.

I find it insane that you are praising God for the Reformation Revolution that has DESTROYED Christianity. You really think that was God's plan? To have multiple salvafic doctrines taught by multiple men who all claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit and DIVIDE Christians???? ARE YOU BEING SERIOUS???????????????

Sorry you feel sick. I don't understand how having Christianity divided into multiple "truths" by men who tickle the ears of others to split Christianity up into multiple churches with all of them saying they have the truth makes you feel good....I would think that would make you sick.

 

[Marymog]

So the rest of the chapter makes it so Jesus is actually talking about when a person does not agree with the Catholic church's doctrine rather than what it actually says (them sinning against us)?

Oh goodness Ferris...I'm tired. you are wearing me out.

WHO is 'the church' in the part that says 'and if he still refuses to listen to the church treat him as a pagan or tax collector'?

Your men have taught you that EVERYONE is the church. So using your teaching the offending brother and the one offended already went to the church when they got 1 or 2 others! Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo who did they go to after that? Scripture says they went to the church. According to your theory THEY ALREADY DID THAT. Sooooooooooooooooo Who made the decision that they should be treated as a pagan or tax collector?????????????????

Hopefully, maybe, someday you will have the knowledge......maybe?

 

[Marymog]

You're grasping, lol.
We have been discussing Matthew 18:15-17. Let me refresh your memory as to the passage that we are talking about...
↓↓↓

Stop it Ferris...PLEASE just stop it. YOU quoted 6 words from a passage. You used those 6 words as evidence to back up your theory.

So PLEASE don't suggest that I am "grasping" at anything. I responded to what YOU wrote. MARYMOG has made it very clear that we ARE talking about ALL the passages in CONTEXT.............YOU are the one who quoted 6 words and tried to make it look like I didn't know what I was talking about. YOU are the one NOT talking about all the passages IN CONTEXT. YOU are stuck on 6 words.

I can't do this anymore with you Ferris. After MULTIPLE posts you STILL have not given ANY evidence or LOGIC to back up what you believe.

I'm going to take a few days off. I suggest Ferris Bueller takes a day off also and reads all those passages IN CONTEXT and get's back with me on WHO decided that the offender in those passages should be treated as a pagan. Because your theory is not logical.....your theory suggest that the 2 or 3 could have ruled the offender a pagan. But they didn't...did they Ferris??????????? They went to someone else! Who did they go to Ferris???

Bible Study Mary

 

[ScottA]

Hold on Scott....HOLD ON!

So your theory is that The Church, CHRISTIANITY, for the first 1,500 years after the death of Christ made a slow departure from the teachings of Christ and the Apostles? And then wham bam, magically, with the blessing of God 500 years ago the enlightened by the Holy Spirit men of the Reformation came along and got Christianity back on track? Back to the teachings of Christ and the Apostles? Is that really what you believe?

You do realize that the revolution your forefathers brought 500 years ago has DIVIDED Christianity. There are now MULTIPLE salvific "truths" being taught by MULTIPLE men at MULTIPLE churches with all claiming guidance by the Holy Spirit????

Soooooooooooo, in a nut shell, your theory is nutty!!!

No...that is not at all what I meant. But, per usual, you are showing yourself to be beyond a reasonable ability emotionally and too charged up to have a rational discussion. So, I will elaborate, but if you are serious about settling on the truth, you will have to show a considerable amount more calm.

The departure of the church occurred in direct proportion to Christ's words regarding Him coming "quickly" and that those things relevant to His coming (again) would "shortly come to pass." Which is to say, false teachers (just as Peter foretold) came "quickly" into the church, and the warning of Christ against the "evil servant" did "shortly come to pass." "For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.”

But since you also brought up your pet peeve of the Reformation...No, I was not excluding them. They too did likewise, also preaching that "My master is delaying his coming." Luke 12:45

As for divisions--did you think that, "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword" and "My strength is made perfect in weakness", actually meant...unity? The apostle Paul at least was hopeful enough to say that the differences were as the differences of the many members of one body. Which, of course, was God's plan all along, giving [different] gifts to men...pardon me, to mankind.

But I am not being one sided as you are refer to the history of the church in division and taking your own side, but rather I have reconciled not in part, but all that is written and promised.​

 

[Philip James]

Which things are true, but you deny because you have believed according to what was prophesied to be false and a lie.

Ah the venom is starting to spew now that you have been exposed. St. John the Apostle and his students, St. Ignatius and St. Polycarp repudiated your kind long ago.. You lay your traps and whisper poison in the ears of those here who are truly trying to follow Jesus as best they know how and now you want to question MY faith?

Okay...lets try a different tact:

Since Jesus said His words are spirit, and since they are spiritually discerned according to the apostle Paul-- The words you just quoted from Jesus, what do they mean spiritually?

I will accept your challenge!

But we need rules and an agreed upon arbiter to act as referee/judge

Truth recognizes Truth

Pax et Bonum

 

[Philip James]

So that means NONE of them have any truth, then, right?
Your logic is so short sided.

In so much as they hold the catholic faith, to that extent they have truth..

All are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum

 

[quietthinker]

I gave up spotting heretics because I ran out of the right coloured paint.
Light is the only thing which dispels darkness......not pointing the finger at darkness.

 

[ScottA]

Ah the venom is starting to spew now that you have been exposed. St. John the Apostle and his students, St. Ignatius and St. Polycarp repudiated your kind long ago.. You lay your traps and whisper poison in the ears of those here who are truly trying to follow Jesus as best they know how and now you want to question MY faith?

I laid out the proof according to the actual church history.

But you are correct in saying that it has been repudiated before--but the last time you revealed that they even "quenched the spirit" against the commandment of the scriptures 1 Thessalonians 5:19:

Your kind of spiritism has long since been repudiated in the Church.

I will accept your challenge!

But we need rules and an agreed upon arbiter to act as referee/judge

Truth recognizes Truth

1 Corinthians 2:15
But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
​

Let me guess-- You would like flesh and blood as arbiter.

 

[Philip James]

I laid out the proof according to the actual church history.

But you are correct in saying that it has been repudiated before--but the last time you revealed that they even "quenched the spirit" against the commandment of the scriptures 1 Thessalonians 5:19:

​

1 Corinthians 2:15
But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
​

Let me guess-- You would like flesh and blood as arbiter.

Is there no one here that you would submit to as arbiter? Are you alone qualified? To determine the Truth?

Pax et Bonum

 

[ScottA]

Is there no one here that you would submit to as arbiter? Are you alone qualified? To determine the Truth?

Pax et Bonum

There is but One, his name is Jesus.

 

[amigo de christo]

There is but One, his name is Jesus.

Thus let not those popes decieve a soul as to think they and that institution is the only means by which one can learn truth .
That place is highly dangerous and if i could i would get a bullhorn and warn all to come on out of her and do so quickly
and NEVER LOOK back .

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Stop it Ferris...PLEASE just stop it. YOU quoted 6 words from a passage. You used those 6 words as evidence to back up your theory.

So PLEASE don't suggest that I am "grasping" at anything. I responded to what YOU wrote. MARYMOG has made it very clear that we ARE talking about ALL the passages in CONTEXT.............YOU are the one who quoted 6 words and tried to make it look like I didn't know what I was talking about. YOU are the one NOT talking about all the passages IN CONTEXT. YOU are stuck on 6 words.

Here's the context. Where is having different doctrinal beliefs in all this????

10See that you do not look down on any of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of My Father in heaven.b12What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them goes astray, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go out to search for the one that is lost? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he rejoices more over that one sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14In the same way, your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

15If your brother sins against you,c go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’d 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.18Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

19Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven. 20For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.”

21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?”22Jesus answered, “I tell you, not just seven times, but seventy-seven times!e Matthew 18:10-22​

I see where it talks about the person who sins against you in the passage we were discussing (Matthew 18:15-17). But I'm not seeing anything here about doctrinal differences. Let's face it MOG, you are wrong. This proves what I've been saying: 1) people in the church have differing levels of knowledge (you did not know this passage has nothing to do with doctrinal differences), and 2) having an erroneous doctrinal belief doesn't automatically make you a liar, but perhaps just someone who doesn't know something someone else does. That's why I asked you if you were lying about the passage or just unknowledgeable about the passage. I asked so you'd see that.

I suggest Ferris Bueller takes a day off also and reads all those passages IN CONTEXT and get's back with me on WHO decided that the offender in those passages should be treated as a pagan. Because your theory is not logical.....your theory suggest that the 2 or 3 could have ruled the offender a pagan. But they didn't...did they Ferris??????????? They went to someone else! Who did they go to Ferris???

They are to take the matter before the sum total of believers in the congregation, and if they still do not acknowledge their offending behavior he is to be treated by the church as a pagan or tax collector. What's so hard about this for you to understand?

 

[Jim B]

Ah the venom is starting to spew now that you have been exposed. St. John the Apostle and his students, St. Ignatius and St. Polycarp repudiated your kind long ago.. You lay your traps and whisper poison in the ears of those here who are truly trying to follow Jesus as best they know how and now you want to question MY faith?




I will accept your challenge!

But we need rules and an agreed upon arbiter to act as referee/judge

Truth recognizes Truth

Pax et Bonum

Are you following a dead man? That is how you portray Jesus: dead on the cross.

 

[Berserk]

Jim B: Are you following a dead man? That is how you portray Jesus: dead on the cross."

Why evangelicals here want to trivialize Jesus' shed blood on the cross is beyond me. Catholics grasp Paul's point when he proclaims: "I determined to know nothing among you, except Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor. 2:2).

Ferris, the key point to keep in mind about Matt. 18:15-20 is this: Jesus gives the authority of binding and loosing to the church that He previously gave to Peter (Matt. 16:18-19). But only Peter and by implication his successors receive the "keys to the kingdom" and hence the authority to pronounce absolution. Unlike evangelicals, Catholics grasp the significance of James' command to "confess your sins to one another," and its implied link with the apostolic authority to forgive sins (John 20:22-23). Evangelicals imagine they can disregard Jesus and James by confessing directly to God and receive forgiveness without human (or priestly) mediation. God is longsuffering towards theological error, but why disrespect Jesus and James in this way? Catholics are quitely simply more faithful to the Word in this respect.

 

[Jim B]

Jim B: Are you following a dead man? That is how you portray Jesus: dead on the cross."

Why evangelicals here want to trivialize Jesus' shed blood on the cross is beyond me. Catholics grasp Paul's point when he proclaims: "I determined to know nothing among you, except Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor. 2:2).

<snip>

One question: is Jesus resurrected and sitting at the right hand of God or is He dead on the cross? You are trivializing His sacrifice -- or more properly, denying it -- by portraying Him as dead.

Catholics miss Paul's point when he proclaims: "I determined to know nothing among you, except Christ and Him crucified. Paul was teaching them that Christ's crucifixion achieved what the law could not: the penalty for sin has been paid.

Acts 2:32-33, "This Jesus God raised up, and we are all witnesses of it. So then, exalted to the right hand of God, and having received the promise of the Holy Spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you both see and hear." (written by Luke)

Romans 8:34, "Who is the one who will condemn? Christ is the one who died (and more than that, he was raised), who is at the right hand of God, and who also is interceding for us." (written by Paul)

Colossians 3:1, "Therefore, if you have been raised with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God." (written by Paul)

Hebrews 10:12, "But when this priest had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, he sat down at the right hand of God"

Hebrews 12:2, "keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of our faith. For the joy set out for him he endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God.

1 Peter 3:21b-22, "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who went into heaven and is at the right hand of God with angels and authorities and powers subject to him."

It baffles me why you fail to understand what Scripture clearly says! Jesus is not dead on the cross, but alive at the right hand of God. Quoting Paul saying that he wanted to explain the meaning of the crucifixion to the people of Corinth is a deliberate twisting of Scripture to justify your false doctrine.

And portraying Him as dead on the cross is a visual denial of the truth.