Spotting Heretics

[Ferris Bueller]

I agree with you that "churches" (denominations) teach lies. But The Church that Jesus Christ started does not teach lies.....I am making that abundantly clear.

That is unless you think that The Church Jesus built does teach lies?

Teaching a lie implies purposely teaching things that are not true in order to deceive. I'm sure a member of Christ's body, the church, is capable of doing that, but I'd say by far the more common thing is that members of Christ's body, the church, teach things that are not true. There is a big difference between a member of Christ's body, the church, teaching something that is not true because they don't know better, and teaching something because they are purposely lying.

 

[Marymog]

Ferris is 100% correct: all the members of Christ's body are the church. 1 Corinthians 12:27, "Now you are Christ’s body, and each of you is a member of it." Do you disagree with Scripture?

Your unbiblical theory suggests that every member of the church is the pillar and foundation of truth..........even though they all have different truths. Sooooo that theory doesn't work.

If their is a disagreement among us I can just go and find everyone in the church that agrees with me to tell you your wrong and then we can treat YOU like a pagan or tax collector (ex-communicate you from the church) which means your theory makes no sense and vice a versa....So that theory does not work either.

 

[Jim B]

Your unbiblical theory suggests that every member of the church is the pillar and foundation of truth..........even though they all have different truths. Sooooo that theory doesn't work.

If their is a disagreement among us I can just go and find everyone in the church that agrees with me to tell you your wrong and then we can treat YOU like a pagan or tax collector (ex-communicate you from the church) which means your theory makes no sense and vice a versa....So that theory does not work either.

This is just rationalization, and illogical at that. It's reductio ad absurdum. There are obviously going to be differences, but people should follow God's word -- the Bible and the Holy Spirit -- not the edicts of fallible men. The church history is filled with abhorrent decisions and behavior by "pious" men. So that theory does not work.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Your unbiblical theory suggests that every member of the church is the pillar and foundation of truth..........even though they all have different truths. Sooooo that theory doesn't work.

Every member of Christ's body is the church. Therefore, the sum total of us believers constitutes the household of God, the pillar and foundation of the truth, the church. We know that does not mean every single member of Christ's body, the church, is perfect in the knowledge of the truth by the scriptures that I've been quoting that show we are all growing up into that knowledge and are in different stages of growth.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If their is a disagreement among us I can just go and find everyone in the church that agrees with me to tell you your wrong and then we can treat YOU like a pagan or tax collector (ex-communicate you from the church) which means your theory makes no sense and vice a versa....So that theory does not work either.

Are you lying, or do you just not know that Matthew 18:15-17 directs us to consider someone a pagan or tax collector if they refuse to reconcile with us when they've wronged us, not when someone is at a different stage of knowledge of Christ?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Generally, I agree with you.....I just wonder what happens to people who have never heard of Jesus? Will they be saved....

They are judged according to their conscience:

14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them" Romans 2:14-15​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Ok.....Sooooooo who are those people among "us believers" that have been "appointed" to the "offices of authority" in "the true church of God? I am a believer and I didn't vote to appoint anyone.

The appointment is divine, meaning God has called and gifted them for service in the body of Christ, the church. Not you or I.

Do you have names of these people? Or a phone number, address, website, email etc. I can contact them at?

Let me refresh your memory about this discourse we had a while back... ↓↓↓

Give me the name of one person that is currently living that is a "gifted believer that has been called and anointed by God". Just one, that's all I ask of you........I don't think you will provide me one but I am patient!

Reverend John Moore, United Methodist Church, Berrien Springs, Michigan. Dr. Edward Grey, Suncoast Ministries, Hudson, Fl., author, former host, staff member of the 700 Club in Atlanta (now deceased. I'm no spring chicken myself). Names escape me after all these years but they'll come to me... Dean Pratt, Grace Bible Church, Hudson, Fl. Dennis Cox of Beacon Community Church, Hudson, Florida, now in private counseling practice. Jon Hendry, Living Faith Fellowship, Gwinn, MI.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And Satan will not prevail against ANY member of the church? NONE of them will go to hell? None of them will sin while here on earth? Once again not logical or biblical. Who taught you this?

All believing people constitute the household of God, the church, and remain in the household of God, the pillar and foundation of the truth, and the gates of hades will not prevail against them:

"6...God’s house. And we are His house, if we hold firmlyc to our confidence and the hope of which we boast." Hebrews 3:6

"15...God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." 1 Timothy 3:15

"18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." Matthew 16:18
​

 

[Jim B]

Every member of Christ's body is the church. Therefore, the sum total of us believers constitutes the household of God, the pillar and foundation of the truth, the church. We know that does not mean every single member of Christ's body, the church, is perfect in the knowledge of the truth by the scriptures that I've been quoting that show we are all growing up into that knowledge and are in different stages of growth.

Correct! Great post!

 

[ScottA]

@Philip James

So the question was raised asking whether or not the Catholic Church excludes others, and why you think that is?

I can only answer for myself, where even family have not even allowed my wife and I to take our grandchildren to church with us, unless we go to a Catholic church. And when we have gone to Catholic service before, the taking of communion is only for Catholics, and all others are to abstain.

Other than that, there seems to be a sense of "them and us." Which is not to say that we have not been welcome--just considered different by some status or something. In other words, it's like outsiders are welcome--but nonetheless, still outsiders.

 

[Philip James]

I can only answer for myself, where even family have not even allowed my wife and I to take our grandchildren to church with us, unless we go to a Catholic church. And when we have gone to Catholic service before, the taking of communion is only for Catholics, and all others are to abstain.

Hi Scott,

Regarding the taking of communion, all are indeed welcome but the Church has a duty to ensure those who partake understand Who it is that they approach, and are properly prepared to recieve Him

'to eat and drink unworthily is to eat and drink condemnation on oneself'

Not to mention one should know what it is they are saying Amen to when they receive..

Sadly even many Catholics today dont believe or recognize Who it is they approach..

Lord, have mercy!

Pax et Bonum

 

[Jim B]

Hi Scott,

Regarding the taking of communion, all are indeed welcome but the Church has a duty to ensure those who partake understand Who it is that they approach, and are properly prepared to recieve Him

'to eat and drink unworthily is to eat and drink condemnation on oneself'

Not to mention one should know what it is they are saying Amen to when they receive..

Sadly even many Catholics today dont believe or recognize Who it is they approach..

Lord, have mercy!

Pax et Bonum

Why did Jesus share the bread and wine -- His figurative body and blood -- with Judas?

 

[ScottA]

Hi Scott,

Regarding the taking of communion, all are indeed welcome but the Church has a duty to ensure those who partake understand Who it is that they approach, and are properly prepared to recieve Him

'to eat and drink unworthily is to eat and drink condemnation on oneself'

Not to mention one should know what it is they are saying Amen to when they receive..

Sadly even many Catholics today dont believe or recognize Who it is they approach..

Lord, have mercy!

Pax et Bonum

Indeed, communion is handled poorly by most congregations, with very little explanation even of what it is for. And it would be so easy to explain and say, that it was begun by those who knew Jesus and is now the practice also of those who know Him, which was and is done in remembrance of His body broken and His blood shed for us, which He did to pay for our sins, that rather than life ending only in death, we might have eternal life and be reconciled with God. Pretty simple.

As for condemnation, we are condemned already--“Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

 

[Jim B]

Your unbiblical theory suggests that every member of the church is the pillar and foundation of truth..........even though they all have different truths. Sooooo that theory doesn't work.

If their is a disagreement among us I can just go and find everyone in the church that agrees with me to tell you your wrong and then we can treat YOU like a pagan or tax collector (ex-communicate you from the church) which means your theory makes no sense and vice a versa....So that theory does not work either.

Quoting the Bible is "unbiblical"? Okay then...

I never said that every member of the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. That is your made-up distortion of what I wrote. Sooooo that deliberate misinterpretation doesn't work.

Your second paragraph "theory" is nonsense. You need to take a break and think about what you're actually saying.

 

[Philip James]

Indeed, communion is handled poorly by most congregations, with very little explanation even of what it is for. And it would be so easy to explain and say, that it was begun by those who knew Jesus and is now the practice also of those who know Him, which was and is done in remembrance of His body broken and His blood shed for us, which He did to pay for our sins, that rather than life ending only in death, we might have eternal life and be reconciled with God. Pretty simple.

Helli Scott,

And if one believe that is all the Eucharist is, and that Christ is not truly present, the very Bread of Life, come down from heaven, then it is proper for them NOT to recieve.. Not recoginizing Him whom they approach..

Pax et Bonum

 

[ScottA]

Helli Scott,

And if one believe that is all the Eucharist is, and that Christ is not truly present, the very Bread of Life, come down from heaven, then it is proper for them NOT to recieve.. Not recoginizing Him whom they approach..

Pax et Bonum

Now you have left the path of scripture.

Jesus only said to "Do this in remembrance of Me." The fact that He said it was His body, was only symbolic, just as He also referred to the mana come down from Heaven, which only pointed to His coming. Nor was Jesus an actual wooly Lamb, nor were the lambs sacrificed Jesus either. And what are all elements, but dust?

Indeed, you confirm that the Catholics have made a mockery of many things, looking to symbols rather than what is real. But this Jesus addressed already with Israel, saying, "Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold?" And this, He said referring to His body--so, what, would the Catholics have us eat the stones of the temple too?

You have been very kind and polite, just as does the Catholic church...but do you not see why Jesus referred to the Priests as "Fools and blind" for also not seeing and knowing what was only symbolic, and what was real?

 

[Philip James]

Now you have left the path of scripture

People who take our sacred texts and try and reverse engineer the Church are doomed to failure..

The Church was celebrating the Eucharist before one letter of the NT was penned.. To dismiss the 2000 year Faith and practice of the Church to follow one's own understanding is just hubris..

Here's a little from St. Ignatius who was made Bishop of the Church in Antioch by the apostles:

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again"

St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

Every ancient apostolic community holds to this Faith and practice. Where is the apostolic community that says otherwise?

Either the whole Church everywhere, not only fell into error, but the very same error.. Or this is indeed the teaching of the apostles..

I will stick with my brethren of the last 2000 years with whom Christ promised He would remain until the end of the age..

Pax et Bonum

 

[ScottA]

People who take our sacred texts and try and reverse engineer the Church are doomed to failure..

The Church was celebrating the Eucharist before one letter of the NT was penned.. To dismiss the 2000 year Faith and practice of the Church to follow one's own understanding is just hubris..

Here's a little from St. Ignatius who was made Bishop of the Church in Antioch by the apostles:

"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again"

St. Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrnaeans (Roberts-Donaldson translation)

Every ancient apostolic community holds to this Faith and practice. Where is the apostolic community that says otherwise?

Either the whole Church everywhere, not only fell into error, but the very same error.. Or this is indeed the teaching of the apostles..

I will stick with my brethren of the last 2000 years with whom Christ promised He would remain until the end of the age..

Pax et Bonum

Okay...

Just so you realize, I quoted Jesus, and you quoted and follow those whom Peter warned against, saying, "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed." 2 Peter 2:1-2

 

[Philip James]

Okay...

Just so you realize, I quoted Jesus, and you quoted and follow those whom Peter warned against, saying, "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed." 2 Peter 2:1-2

The entire Church for 1500 years recognized Ignatius as a hero and martyr of the Faith. Clearly he is NOT who Peter warned about as his community (the community of John and the apostles
) remains very much here... Those who rejected these things and left the community, 'drawing others after them'.. Where are their communities now?

You want Jesus? Here's some:

'evey planting not of my Father will be uprooted"

Where is the 2000 year old apostolic community that rejects Ignatius?

Here's some more Jesus:

'for my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him..'

No.. I have not left 'the path of scripture' clearly it testifys of Christ and calls all to come to be united with Him.

All are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum

 

[Jim B]

Helli Scott,

And if one believe that is all the Eucharist is, and that Christ is not truly present, the very Bread of Life, come down from heaven, then it is proper for them NOT to recieve.. Not recoginizing Him whom they approach..

Pax et Bonum

At the Passover dinner when Jesus and His disciples were present, He was there in the flesh. He didn't have to come down from heaven. He shared the bread and wine with them and told them (and us) to remember Him when we drank it.

Christ is not present. There is nothing in Scripture that says that. He said "Then he took bread, and after giving thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” Luke 22:19 Why would we have to remember Him if He is actually present?

BTW, Jesus is not, and never was, comprised of bread and wine. He was and is a living person.