The Resurrection is for all people (thank you Yeshua!)

[Waiting on him]

It's always been - any thought or mind which is in opposition to God is "the knowledge of good & evil".

No man was born of God till Jesus first century

 

[Waiting on him]

Nor had any man seen the Father.

 

[face2face]

No man was born of God till Jesus first century

The Elohim have this knowledge and by this they must have gone through a probationary period like us.

 

[face2face]

Nor had any man seen the Father.

"And Yahweh Elohim said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil"

This knowledge is not based on immortality, or the experiential knowledge of sin...what we need to understand is Adam and Eve were immature believers who in time could have been taught such knowledge, however this was not in God's master plan!

 

[face2face]

"And Yahweh Elohim said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil"

This knowledge is not based on immortality, or the experiential knowledge of sin...what we need to understand is Adam and Eve were immature believers who in time could have been taught such knowledge, however this was not in God's master plan!

This also proves something else about Genesis 1-3 that most Christians cant understand.

 

[Earburner]

"And Yahweh Elohim said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil"

This knowledge is not based on immortality, or the experiential knowledge of sin...what we need to understand is Adam and Eve were immature believers who in time could have been taught such knowledge, however this was not in God's master plan!

In the moment of Adam and Eve's creation:
Immature? Maybe.
Adults? Absolutely yes.
Innocent? Yes, absolutely.
Knowledge of G&E? None whatsoever.
Eternal existence? Absolutely not.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hello CadyandZoe,

Can you explain more about what you mean here?

From my understanding there are only two types of people in the world, those who think about and add God into their life, and those who do not think about and do not add God into their life.

From also my understanding there are two types of Christians in this world, those who are Children of God, and those who walk by the spirit and are considered Sons or Daughters of God.

@Christophany said it better than I could, quoting Proverbs 23:7

But then, I misunderstood post #441. I heard you to say that one's own thoughts meant nothing with regard to whom that person really is. (I suspect that Christophany also heard you that way, which is why Christophany quoted the verse.) I was mistaken. I misinterpreted your words.

I see now that you were talking about reputation: the beliefs or opinions that are generally held about you by someone else.

To that I say this. A man has friends, relatives, teachers, colleagues, business associates, customers, and etc. all of whom can see the man from the outside; and in a sense act as a mirror, reflecting back at him. Thus it becomes a matter of quality; what makes for the quality of a mirror? Does the mirror (how others see him) reflect back to him an accurate and reliable image? Or is the image distorted somehow?

How others see us can be valuable information if such opinions are accurate. But as you say, those observing the man from the outside can't always know what he is thinking or what motivates him; they don't fully know his thoughts, his dreams, his hopes, his values, or his perspective. The man's associates might know him partially, and his family might know more about him, but none of them know the man fully, except as you say, God knows him fully.

Consider 1 Corinthians 13:9-12

For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

The opinion of others, for the most part, is a dim mirror. But, Paul says, once the perfect comes, then we will know each other fully. Why? Because an essential aspect of being known is to know ourselves fully.

Know thyself.

 

[Earburner]

No man was born of God till Jesus first century

Are you meaning "born again" of the Holy Spirit?
If so, I agree.
God the Father could not permanently dwell/live within anyone, until The Lamb of God came to take away the sin of the world.
God the Father needed Jesus' sacrifice just as much as we, but for different reasons.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello to you CadyandZoe, Good morning.

But then, I misunderstood post #441. I heard you to say that one's own thoughts meant nothing with regard to whom that person really is. (I suspect that Christophany also heard you that way, which is why Christophany quoted the verse.) I was mistaken. I misinterpreted your words.

That happens to happen a lot in real life, as well as when posting on forum sites. When people hear something and do not understand it, they assume what is meant rather than by asking the question: What do you mean by that to get a full understanding from the other person.

I see now that you were talking about reputation: the beliefs or opinions that are generally held about you by someone else.

It was a general consensus of saying that "Just because someone doesn't understand your position on what you believe about God and the scriptures doesn't mean that their comments in which they try to say "your are wrong", should have an effect on you as a human being if you are already convinced in your own mind about the subject."

To try and stay biblical: Paul addressed this when he tells the Corinthians in his first letter,

1 Corinthians 10:29 It might not be a matter of conscience for you, but it is for the other person.) For why should my freedom be limited by what someone else thinks?
​

Also in the letter to the people at Rome, Paul stated this

Romans 14:5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.
​

This is a general aspect of people should be convinced in their own mind fully of whatever it is they are going to believe. Be it about God, Jesus, the Return, the final place of the wicked (or faithless), and like manners.

To that I say this. A man has friends, relatives, teachers, colleagues, business associates, customers, and etc. all of whom can see the man from the outside; and in a sense act as a mirror, reflecting back at him.

When looking into a mirror, all a person sees is themselves.

When looking at other human beings you are seeing other human beings not a mirror, from my perspective.

Sure we can see the outside appearance of a person: They could curse a lot, they could say anything and everything, and these things, and most of the time when around other people, some (not all) compare themselves to them if anything.

"I am not like Joey blonde down the road, who lives in a trashy house, I am someone who lives in a nice house with a nice car."

Things of that nature, what would your thoughts be about this perception?

Thus it becomes a matter of quality; what makes for the quality of a mirror? Does the mirror (how others see him) reflect back to him an accurate and reliable image? Or is the image distorted somehow?

A mirror is a mirror when you look into a mirror you see yourself. Some perhaps can try to find notions of 'are they similar to me' by what they talk about or what they add to the conversation.

To me personally I don't mind what a person likes, football, basketball, other sports, do they like to go to the beach, do they like to spend time with their family, do they like to do drugs, do they tend to like to talk about sexual things, do they tend to like gossiping and whispering about others, do they tend to like spreading false rumors and lies, do they tend to whatever you would like to state here.

The question is as a Christian filled by the Holy Spirit: when these topics are brought up handle them in a proper fashion. No matter the subject content, sometimes you can't really say much it is what they like so what they like has no bearing on you depending on whatever it may be. All people fall short and sin either way it goes, and to shine a light that is what Jesus called us to do, which said to disciples on the Sermon on the Mount.

Matthew 5: 14 You are the light of the world. A city on a hillb cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a basket. Instead, they set it on a stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.​

How others see us can be valuable information if such opinions are accurate. But as you say, those observing the man from the outside can't always know what he is thinking or what motivates him; they don't fully know his thoughts, his dreams, his hopes, his values, or his perspective.

That is right, a person can share their dreams, hopes, values, and perspective with you if they choose to be open and honest with you, however even when a person expresses these things, it doesn't mean they can be true. Sometimes they can be false and it can be a manipulative tactic. As I was prone to do in my life along time ago was manipulate to get my own way.

The man's associates might know him partially, and his family might know more about him, but none of them know the man fully, except as you say, God knows him fully.

Consider 1 Corinthians 13:9-12

For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

Yes that is right. Only God knows a persons heart fully.

The opinion of others, for the most part, is a dim mirror. But, Paul says, once the perfect comes, then we will know each other fully. Why? Because an essential aspect of being known is to know ourselves fully.

Know thyself.

Perhaps this is why Paul mentioned in the second letter to the Corinthians 13,

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?
​

Also mentioned by Apostle Peter in his second letter to the people he wrote to also said this:

2 Peter 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
​

Also James a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, who wrote to the twelve tribes also wrote this and said

James 1:21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.
​

With all of this, it is important to know yourself, and to test yourself, and to read the word of God which able to renew our mind and hearts.

Which the Apostle Paul urged those whom lived in Rome the same thing in Letter to them.

12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.​

May God be praised and receive the glory.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Revelation 12:6 KJV
[6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Do the JWs believe there is a wilderness in heaven?

You cherry pick one verse out of a very symbolic book and make a point that has no relation to what the whole chapter is about?

Revelation 12 has a lot of information contained in it, as well as a timeframe for events related to Daniel’s prophesy.
Revelation 12:1 says....
“Then a great sign was seen in heaven: A woman was arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of 12 stars, 2 and she was pregnant. And she was crying out in her pains and in her agony to give birth.”

Who is the woman in that verse?...and who or what is she giving birth to?

Vs 3-4...
“Look! A great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and on its heads seven diadems; 4 and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she did give birth, it might devour her child.”

Who is the fiery dragon with seven heads and ten horns who has seven diadems on its heads?
What does the third of the stars represent.....and when were these hurled down to the earth?
Why did the dragon want to devour her child?

What happens in vs 7-12 and how are mankind affected by those events?

The wilderness is as symbolic as the rest of the chapter.....unless you think that a literal wilderness exists where God has prepared a place for this woman to “be fed for a time and times and half a time”....? (Vs 14) What is she eating?
What is the “river” that is sent to drown her, and who comes to her rescue?

Revelation chapter 12 needs to be understood in its totality.

 

[Earburner]

You cherry pick one verse out of a very symbolic book and make a point that has no relation to what the whole chapter is about?

Revelation 12 has a lot of information contained in it, as well as a timeframe for events related to Daniel’s prophesy.
Revelation 12:1 says....
“Then a great sign was seen in heaven: A woman was arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of 12 stars, 2 and she was pregnant. And she was crying out in her pains and in her agony to give birth.”

Who is the woman in that verse?...and who or what is she giving birth to?

Vs 3-4...
“Look! A great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and on its heads seven diadems; 4 and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she did give birth, it might devour her child.”

Who is the fiery dragon with seven heads and ten horns who has seven diadems on its heads?
What does the third of the stars represent.....and when were these hurled down to the earth?
Why did the dragon want to devour her child?

What happens in vs 7-12 and how are mankind affected by those events?

The wilderness is as symbolic as the rest of the chapter.....unless you think that a literal wilderness exists where God has prepared a place for this woman to “be fed for a time and times and half a time”....? (Vs 14) What is she eating?
What is the “river” that is sent to drown her, and who comes to her rescue?

Revelation chapter 12 needs to be understood in its totality.

Without addressing all the particulars of your questions in regards to the entire context of Revelation 12, most Christians view it as being all in the future. Unfortunately, by taking that view they exclude the mind of Christ to provide His own thoughts about it, and therefore are attempting to interpret it solely by their own natural mind/man. Isaiah 55:8-9, Zechariah 4:6.
The Mind of God thinks in the past, present and future, ALL at the same time.
I will show what I mean, in regards to the words:
this woman to “be fed for a time and times and half a time”
Many are unaware that the appearance of Jesus and John the Baptist, was a joint ministry**, manifested and empowered by God's Holy Spirit
John's lasted for 6 months.
Jesus' lasted 3 years.
All total, that is three and a half years, aka 1260 days, a time and times and a half time.

**Edit: Zech.4[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by [for] the LORD of the whole earth. Revelation 11:2-3, 12:4-6.

(Remember, God thinks and conveys His thoughts in the past, present and future all AT THE SAME TIME.).

From all of the above, now all can know who the woman of faith really was, and who was doing the feeding in the wilderness.
Here are 2 clues:
1. "she was pregnant". Luke 2:25-32, Hebrews 12:22-25
2. The mount of Olives. Luke 21:37, Matthew 24:3.

 

[Waiting on him]

You cherry pick one verse out of a very symbolic book and make a point that has no relation to what the whole chapter is about?

Revelation 12 has a lot of information contained in it, as well as a timeframe for events related to Daniel’s prophesy.
Revelation 12:1 says....
“Then a great sign was seen in heaven: A woman was arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of 12 stars, 2 and she was pregnant. And she was crying out in her pains and in her agony to give birth.”

Who is the woman in that verse?...and who or what is she giving birth to?

Vs 3-4...
“Look! A great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and on its heads seven diadems; 4 and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she did give birth, it might devour her child.”

Who is the fiery dragon with seven heads and ten horns who has seven diadems on its heads?
What does the third of the stars represent.....and when were these hurled down to the earth?
Why did the dragon want to devour her child?

What happens in vs 7-12 and how are mankind affected by those events?

The wilderness is as symbolic as the rest of the chapter.....unless you think that a literal wilderness exists where God has prepared a place for this woman to “be fed for a time and times and half a time”....? (Vs 14) What is she eating?
What is the “river” that is sent to drown her, and who comes to her rescue?

Revelation chapter 12 needs to be understood in its totality.

Lol, SMH @Aunty Jane, I ask you a simple question and you want a discourse on the revelation of Jesus Christ?Ill tell you what, if you’ll give me an honest answer to my original question (do the JWs believe there is a wilderness in heaven) then we’ll flesh this whole thing out. Who knows, maybe together one or the other of us can place the other on their shoulders and together we may reach the highest cherry on the tree?

a simple yes or no will suffice.

 

[Earburner]

Are you meaning "born again" of the Holy Spirit?
If so, I agree.
God the Father could not permanently dwell/live within anyone, until The Lamb of God came to take away the sin of the world.
God the Father needed Jesus' sacrifice just as much as we, but for different reasons.

"Waiting on him",
Do you have a response to my reply above?

 

[Waiting on him]

"Waiting on him",
Do you have a response to my reply above?

Jeremiah 6:1-3 KJV
[1] O ye children of Benjamin, gather yourselves to flee out of the midst of Jerusalem, and blow the trumpet in Tekoa, and set up a sign of fire in Beth-haccerem: for evil appeareth out of the north, and great destruction. [2] I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman. [3] The shepherds with their flocks shall come unto her; they shall pitch their tents against her round about; they shall feed every one in his place.

 

[Waiting on him]

@Earburner
Anything strike you as being odd about this verse?


Matthew 24:31 KJV
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[MatthewG]

@Earburner
Anything strike you as being odd about this verse?


Matthew 24:31 KJV
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Was going through a study today of 1 Peter 1:1-5 not done with all of it don't feel good, took some time to look up the scriptures talking about the elect ran across this verse, and also got to he Foreknowledge part.

 

[Waiting on him]

Was going through a study today of 1 Peter 1:1-5 not done with all of it don't feel good, took some time to look up the scriptures talking about the elect ran across this verse, and also got to he Foreknowledge part.

I hope you get to feeling better soon @MatthewG

 

[Earburner]

@Earburner
Anything strike you as being odd about this verse?


Matthew 24:31 KJV
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Sorry, I can't say that I am understanding what is odd about it.

 

[Waiting on him]

Sorry, I can't say that I am understanding what is odd about it.

God sends his angels from heaven to gather the elect out of heaven, How can one make sense of that?

 

[Earburner]

God sends his angels from heaven to gather the elect out of heaven, How can one make sense of that?

I don't know how anyone would be gathered from out of Heaven. Matthew 13:30-39 is about on earth.
[30] Let both [wheat and tares] grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say TO the reapers [harvesters], Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
[39] The enemy that sowed them [tares] is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.