What day was water created on and why is it not on the new earth?

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Skovand1075

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I think it's obvious that water was created in Genesis. 1:1.

The reason being vs 2 tells us the Spirit of God moved upon the waters.

The question is, did Genesis 1:1 take place in succession to vs. 3 and on, or is vs.1 separated from vs.3 by millions of years!
I think its obvious that water was not created because of what ancient Jewish people believed about chaotic waters. It’s modern readers they try to make the text scientific in nature as opposed to telling a story of chaotic waters being organized. But later on I’ll go more in detail and walk through the entire Bible with the symbolism.
 

Charlie24

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I think its obvious that water was not created because of what ancient Jewish people believed about chaotic waters. It’s modern readers they try to make the text scientific in nature as opposed to telling a story of chaotic waters being organized. But later on I’ll go more in detail and walk through the entire Bible with the symbolism.

Ok, I'll look forward to that.
 

Tommy Cool

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What day do you think water was created on? Why was it not frozen before the sun was created? Why does it say no sea in the new earth.

I already know what I believe and I’ll post it after work. Just curious what do y’all believe. One clue is chaos.


Water … had to be created in the time frame of Gen 1:1 prior to the event of Gen 1:2

Create = bara in Hebrew - The word created/create is to bring something into existence that did not exist before, or to make something out of nothing. Only God can create; man can fabricate, build, construct, design, make, assemble, etc.… but man cannot create. Once God creates something He does not need to create it again, because it now exists…. He can just speak it into being.

The only thing God creates in the first chapter is noted in Gen 1:1God in the Beginning created the heavens and earth. Then in verse 1:21 (on day 5) He creates soul life in whales, every living creature that moveth, and every winged fowl after his kind. Then Gen 1:27 man in His own image (spirit)

Everything else that God spoke into existence had to be present in the first earth → Gen 1:1.


Gen 1:2 And the earth was (hâyâh) without form, and void (tohu va bohu); and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The first WAS in verse 1:2 is the Hebrew word hâyâh, and has been translated various ways…. 75x in the OT including both was and became. While hâyâh has been translated was in most English versions including the LXX. In the original Hebrew ….there was no verb “to be” (which is translated was) However there is a verb “to become”, which is how this should be translated. The second was in this verse was added by translators as there was/is no corresponding word in that place.

Verse 1:2 should accurately read…. And the earth became without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
 

Skovand1075

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So I’ll now begin to do a set of posts to cover specific aspects of this thread and then afterwards I’ll go back to responding to others.

The first aspect I want to highlight is the genre of genesis 1. When reading genesis you’ll notice that chapters 1-11 seemingly belong together and flow very well and the narrative style and story abruptly changes starting in chapter 12. In chapters 1-11 it jumps well over a thousand years and covers several major events and key people in just a few pages. The timeline in genesis 12+ slows down drastically. The whole rest of the Torah does not even cover as much time as the first eleven chapters. That’s the first clue to what type of genre is it.

The second clue is the content. While many stories are extraordinary, outside of the New Testament and resurrection you won’t find anything like genesis 1-11 with so many crazy things in such a small space.

it opens up with El hovering above a watery universe that was full of darkness and chaos. In six days he separates and fills everything with life. He gets mud and makes a golem that is named mankind who he splits in half after naming all of earths animals and turns the other half into “life” Eve. They listen to a talking snake that tricks then into nesting magical fruit of wisdom which leads to them being cast out of a garden so they can’t become immortal through the fruit of another tree. A floating sword of fire prevents their return as they are driven away. They have two sons and one murdered the other and fod becomes aware of it because the blood is crying out, the dead brother is screaming from the grave. So the killer is marked and becomes a nomad. Angels begin to sleep with women and give birth to giants. The humans build a tower that will reach heaven but it’s struck down after god comes down to earth to see it and he confuses their language and sends across the world. A flood that’s impossible comes and kills everything but those on the ark. All of this happening by those who love hundreds of years and under a dome on earth. The firmament is a dome that separates space water from earth water.

The third clue is what hyperlinks back to it. In psalms 74 for example talks about a “creation” event.

Psalm 74:12-17
New American Standard Bible

12 Yet God is my King from long ago,
Who performs acts of salvation in the midst of the earth.
13 You divided the sea by Your strength;
You broke the heads of the sea monsters in the waters.
14 You crushed the heads of Leviathan;
You gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness.
15 You broke open springs and torrents;
You dried up ever-flowing streams.
16 Yours is the day, Yours also is the night;
You have prepared the light and the sun.
17 You have established all the boundaries of the earth;
You have created summer and winter.

It states Yahweh battled leviathan and hints at the mythologies of leviathan having multiple heads. It’s saying it’s one of the sea monsters from genesis 1.

we also see a mostly overlooked clue in revelation.

Revelation 21:1
New American Standard Bible

21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

We also see these other verses tying into the sea.

Revelation 13:1
New American Standard Bible
The Beast from the Sea

13 And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore.

Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten crowns, and on his heads were blasphemous names.


Revelation 20:13
New American Standard Bible

13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds.

so in revelation we see a dragon summoning sea monsters, we see the sea being considered something unique from the grave and having their dead released and we see no sea being on the new world and we know all of this is symbolism. It’s a end times myth. You don’t read revelation literally, you read it metaphorically and it’s the same with genesis 1-11.

All clues points towards genesis 1-11 being mythological.

Earlier it was argued word became, as if it changed, verse means became as if it’s changed. But that’a not in the text.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/hayetah_1961.ht
the form there means has been/was not will become.

ancient Jewish people believed that prior to creation, the cosmos was water and darkness. Things contrary to healthy human life. We would die in a lightless world devoid of sights or land.

that void was not space. The void was watery darkness. It’s what the firmament separates. In the ancient Jewish belief the world was flat and a dome was over it. This has been noted by hundreds of historians and biblical scholars. Here is a image from Richard Friedman’s “ Commentary on the Torah”. It’s worth reading.
 

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Skovand1075

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Here are a few links to a few good books and podcasts on this subject.

Books.
“Commentary of the Torah” by Richard Friedman.

“Lost World of Genesis 1” by John Walton.
Lost Word of the Flood” by John Walton.

“ Genesis for Normal People” by Pete Enns and Jared B.

“The Bible and Ancient Science” by Denis O. Lamoureux.

podcasts.

these are by “ The Bible Project “ led by Professor Tim Mackie.
Crossing the Chaotic Waters Podcast | BibleProject™

Chaotic Waters & Christian Baptism Podcast | BibleProject™

Chaotic Waters Podcast | BibleProject™

This is by Pete Enns.
Episode 172: Pete Enns - A Whole Different Way of Reading Genesis - The Bible For Normal People

I’ve written all I’m willing to write tonight, or read in this thread. Maybe later. Who knows.
 

Brakelite

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"The waters He called seas". We have little comprehension as to the nature of geography before the flood. There was water. There was land. How they related to one another we simply don't know. My guess is that because of what we know of the nature of God, that He desires and treasures relationship above most anything else in this life, all nature being created in relation to the rest of creation, and even humans designed never to be alone, I suggest that the land was one great continent, and the sea surrounding it. In the new earth, there will be rivers. The land will be watered. Conclusion...I will have to build a wave machine in my own lake.
 

BeyondET

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What day do you think water was created on? Why was it not frozen before the sun was created? Why does it say no sea in the new earth.

I already know what I believe and I’ll post it after work. Just curious what do y’all believe. One clue is chaos.
First day, who knows what state water was in, in a gas form it's basically elements hydrogen and oxygen and earth is all kinds of elements.
 

Enoch111

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What day do you think water was created on?
Water already surrounded the earth on Day One. So presumably on Day One. But there is nothing to say that it will be absent from the New Earth, since water is essential for life.
 

Skovand1075

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Water already surrounded the earth on Day One. So presumably on Day One. But there is nothing to say that it will be absent from the New Earth, since water is essential for life.

well not water. But it specifically says no sea in revelation 21.

It never mentions the creation of water. It opens ups with the watery void already being there.

what day do you think el created darkness or is darkness just a byproduct of no light?
 

Robert Gwin

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So you believe that the waters were created on the second day?

when I read genesis 1 I see this.


Genesis 1
New American Standard Bible

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 And the earth was a formless and desolate emptiness, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

Verse one is a introduction statement. It’s stating the events that are about to happen. It’s saying Yahweh created the world and the cosmos.

But it mentions that the earth was formless and void. It was covered in darkness and water. No land to be seen. The water was already there. Part of this is because of how ancient Jewish people believed. When we think of nothingness we imagine something like a Hollywood video of a person in a 2d white or black world. But ancient Jewish people believed that before Yahweh created the cosmos and earth that everything was just deep dark waters and darkness ruled by chaos.

so the reason why water is never mentioned being created is because to them water and darkness is the default. Light, stars and land is the created.

I am a moron sir, You are absolutely correct, God created water on the first day, but put an expanse with waters above and below the expanse on the second day. My apologies Skov, sometimes my ignorance on such simple matters surprises me.
 

Skovand1075

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The only ignorance are those who arrogantly answer without being open enough to study all sides.

but to be clear, I don’t think he created wster period in the story. The water was simply always there just like darkness.
 

ChristisGod

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So can you show in the text what day? Or do you just have to presume that in order for it to fit your predetermined beliefs? Have you ever looked at the work done by any scholars?
Day 1 Genesis 1:1-4.

Everything was created in the 6 days- nothing existed but God prior to the 6 creation days in Genesis 1.

hope this helps !!!
 

Skovand1075

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Day 1 Genesis 1:1-4.

Everything was created in the 6 days- nothing existed but God prior to the 6 creation days in Genesis 1.

hope this helps !!!
Not really. At least not for me. You’ll notice that response was shared a few times and I’ve countered it. By all means say what you want. But it’s a relatively very weak argument that only works with modern presumptions.

It’s why I also ask “ when was darkness created or was darkness simply a byproduct of no light?”
 

ChristisGod

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Not really. At least not for me. You’ll notice that response was shared a few times and I’ve countered it. By all means say what you want. But it’s a relatively very weak argument that only works with modern presumptions.

It’s why I also ask “ when was darkness created or was darkness simply a byproduct of no light?”
So you are saying physical water is eternal like God and uncreated ?

Is that your position ?
 

Skovand1075

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So you are saying physical water is eternal like God and uncreated ?

Is that your position ?
I’m saying that according to ancient Jewish people, and the book of genesis, their story opens up with a universe that has its cosmology rooted in their Mesopotamian paradigm. That to the authors of genesis prior to creation everything was this chaotic dark sea void of life until Yahweh separated it, ordered it and filled it with life.
 

Angelina

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Not really. At least not for me. You’ll notice that response was shared a few times and I’ve countered it. By all means say what you want. But it’s a relatively very weak argument that only works with modern presumptions.

It’s why I also ask “ when was darkness created or was darkness simply a byproduct of no light?”
possibly a by-product of no light but also possible that God in all his wisdom had the elements already in existence so that he can create light to separate the two for the sake of time. Since time began at the beginning of creation when light was separated from darkness and there was day and night....for all living/created things.
 

ChristisGod

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I’m saying that according to ancient Jewish people, and the book of genesis, their story opens up with a universe that has its cosmology rooted in their Mesopotamian paradigm. That to the authors of genesis prior to creation everything was this chaotic dark sea void of life until Yahweh separated it, ordered it and filled it with life.
Thanks for presenting the unbiblical view of creation.
 

Angelina

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The "no sea"... This is just my own personal thoughts regarding the sea. It's noted to be unpredictable. The bible talks about it raging and roaring and tossing. There is a belief that the land was once gathered together in one place and people were able to travel long distances and the sea surrounded it. Not sure if this is true or not but at some time or perhaps after many centuries, the sea separated people. Perhaps that is the reason that there is no sea :My2c:
 
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Skovand1075

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Thanks for presenting the unbiblical view of creation.
Actually I presented the biblical view because it’s the view taught and understood by the people who originally wrote and read it.

it’s your modern view that completely misses what the original audience wrote and believed. This is not an opinion. That’s a fact.