What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God

[Matthias]

el gibbor. Used in reference to the child in Isaiah 9:6; used in reference to other people in scripture, too. What does that tell us?

 

[Matthias]

I always heard Origen was to blame for the John 1 Word was a god rendering. ( or to be given credit for it)

Have you read Origen’s dialogue with Heraclides?

 

[RLT63]

Have you read Origen’s dialogue with Heraclides?

No I haven't. I read where he said the early Alexandrian manuscripts had been corrupted, casting doubt on scholars ' claims that they are closest to the original.

 

[Matthias]

No I haven't. I read where he said the early Alexandrian manuscripts had been corrupted, casting doubt on scholars ' claims that they are closest to the original.

Origen is a bit of loose cannon, but a key player in the development of the doctrine of the Trinity.

I’m going to quote from his dialogue with Heraclides in the Did Christians “invent” the Trinity? thread. The OP made a case for the Gods of Israel in that thread. Bishop Heraclides supports the proposition. Origen doesn’t disagree; he explains how the two Gods are one God.

They never told me that in Church. (I learned about it in college.)

 

[dhh712]

You say "only God can forgive them (sins)." But there's not even one verse that says that. Do you not see what I'm looking for? Not what you think, but what does the Bible say.

It seems to be an understanding that only God can forgive sins because he's the one who is sinned against. It's not anyone's else's place to forgive a sin against God. Like if someone beat up my Mom, is my next-door neighbor going to say to me that she's forgiven the assailant's sin against my Mom? How can she do that? My Mom has to be the one to forgive the assailant.

If logic does not contradict the Bible, it must be used in interpretation of it. God has gifted us with the use of logic in order that we are able to understand his revelation of himself which he gave to us. I also feel there is nothing in God's word that says that someone else other than him can forgive sins. If there is, I would like to be directed to it. But in the example I gave above it is illogical to have an understanding that a third party can forgive a transgression between a victim and an assailant. Do you see the impossibility of forgiving a transgression that is not done unto you but against someone else? There is no reconciliation that way because the offended party and the offender are not brought together.

Maybe Deuteronomy 32:39 might be what you're looking for: "Now see that I, even I, am He, and there is no God besides me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there anyone who can deliver from my hand."

The deliverance of course is from the wrath of God against our transgressions.

 

[RLT63]

It seems to be an understanding that only God can forgive sins because he's the one who is sinned against. It's not anyone's else's place to forgive a sin against God. Like if someone beat up my Mom, is my next-door neighbor going to say to me that she's forgiven the assailant's sin against my Mom? How can she do that? My Mom has to be the one to forgive the assailant.

If logic does not contradict the Bible, it must be used in interpretation of it. God has gifted us with the use of logic in order that we are able to understand his revelation of himself which he gave to us. I also feel there is nothing in God's word that says that someone else other than him can forgive sins. If there is, I would like to be directed to it. But in the example I gave above it is illogical to have an understanding that a third party can forgive a transgression between a victim and an assailant. Do you see the impossibility of forgiving a transgression that is not done unto you but against someone else? There is no reconciliation that way because the offended party and the offender are not brought together.

Maybe Deuteronomy 32:39 might be what you're looking for: "Now see that I, even I, am He, and there is no God besides me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there anyone who can deliver from my hand."

The deliverance of course is from the wrath of God against our transgressions.

As much as I want to agree with you John 20:23 seems to contradict you.

 

[dhh712]

As much as I want to agree with you John 20:23 seems to contradict you.

It does seem to. However it appears to be referring to the work of the church to bring sinners to repentance and in this way they receive forgiveness from God. The verse has a cross-reference to Matthew 16:19 and 18:18, both talking about what being given the keys of heaven and what you loose on earth is loosed in heaven and what it bound on earth is bound in heaven.

These verses are not as clear as other verses and when we run into something that seems a contradiction, it is the rule of sound Biblical interpretation to look to a more clarifying verse; those would be the passages in the Old Testament which support how only God can forgive trespasses against him because he is the one who has been sinned against. This was very clear to the Jews who were outraged when Jesus pronounced the paralytic's sins forgiven. They understood it is quite clear from God's word that only he can remove transgressions.

The preaching of God's word, done by the church, is the usual route of salvation for most people. We are agents used by God to proclaim the good news of reconciliation to God in Jesus. In that way we hold the keys to heaven and are able to bring a sinner to repent of his or her sins and receive forgiveness from God. So in an indirect way we are acting as a mediator in forgiving the person's sin because it is the church who brought them to God by the preaching of his word. But it is still only God who can forgive sins and he does this by uniting us to Jesus who has covered our sins and provides his righteousness to us.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Colossians 2:8-9

OK.....since scripture without interpretation and context can be misleading, what is Paul telling us here and in what environment?
Colossians 2:8-9 NASB....
“See to it that there is no one who takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception in accordance with human tradition, in accordance with the elementary principles of the world, rather than in accordance with Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form”...

“takes you captive”.....Or “carries you off as his prey.” One lexicon defines the Greek word as “to gain control of by carrying off as booty, make captive of.” It continues, “in imagery of carrying someone away [from] the truth into the slavery of error.”

philosophy: The Greek word phi·lo·so·phiʹa, which occurs only here in the Christian Greek Scriptures, literally means “love of wisdom.” In Paul’s day, this word had broad usage. It commonly referred to many groups and schools of thought, including religious ones. In the only recorded interchange between Paul and Greek philosophers, the discussion centered on religious issues. (Acts 17:18-31)
Paul highlights the “empty deception” that can give people the wrong impression.

human tradition: Jesus pointed out that the Pharisees had taught “the traditions of men as doctrines” and said that this invalidated their worship (Matthew 15:7-9).....that makes these “traditions” spiritually deadly...worldly rather than based on the sound scriptural teachings promoted by Jesus.

in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form:
The context shows that having this “fullness of deity” does not make Jesus Christ equal to God Almighty, as some want to believe. The word “godhead” does not exist except as a poor translation of what is actually the “divine quality” of the Son from his Father. It is a trinitarian invention.

In the preceding chapter, Paul states: “For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.” (Colossians 1:19-20 - NASB)
So the Father is the one who caused Christ to have “the fullness” of the divine quality. Like all things pertaining to Jesus, they were given to him by his Father.....his teachings, his powers, his wisdom and knowledge did not originate from Jesus, but all things originated with the Father, including his precious son.

At Colossians 1:15, Paul says that Jesus “is the image of the invisible God,” not God himself. He is a reflection of all that his Father is. An “image” is not the real thing, just as a photograph is not you. Passports and driver’s licences have photographs so that authorities can identify you. The picture is simply what you look like, but Jesus embodied all of his Father’s qualities. He was not his physical image because spirits have no physical form.

Colossians 1:19-22 describes the reconciliation that God brings about through Christ. We are reconciled to God not to Jesus. He is the mediator who facilitated this reconciliation.....

And Colossians 2:12 shows that God raised Jesus from the dead. Christ did not raise himself.

Add to that the fact that Paul later says that “Christ is seated at the right hand of God.” (Colossians 3:1) Do you not find it strange that not once is the Holy Spirit said to be seated at God’s left hand? Where is the equal threesome?

These statements show that possession of this “fullness” does not make Jesus Christ identical with his God, (the Almighty) but it does make Jesus a “holy servant” of his God and Father. (Acts 4:27)

If you simply give a scripture without knowledge of its context, it is pointless because the true meaning is lost. It’s why we need to study the Bible.

 

[RLT63]

OK.....since scripture without interpretation and context can be misleading, what is Paul telling us here and in what environment?
Colossians 2:8-9 NASB....
“See to it that there is no one who takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception in accordance with human tradition, in accordance with the elementary principles of the world, rather than in accordance with Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form”...

“takes you captive”.....Or “carries you off as his prey.” One lexicon defines the Greek word as “to gain control of by carrying off as booty, make captive of.” It continues, “in imagery of carrying someone away [from] the truth into the slavery of error.”

philosophy: The Greek word phi·lo·so·phiʹa, which occurs only here in the Christian Greek Scriptures, literally means “love of wisdom.” In Paul’s day, this word had broad usage. It commonly referred to many groups and schools of thought, including religious ones. In the only recorded interchange between Paul and Greek philosophers, the discussion centered on religious issues. (Acts 17:18-31)
Paul highlights the “empty deception” that can give people the wrong impression.

human tradition: Jesus pointed out that the Pharisees had taught “the traditions of men as doctrines” and said that this invalidated their worship (Matthew 15:7-9).....that makes these “traditions” spiritually deadly...worldly rather than based on the sound scriptural teachings promoted by Jesus.

in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form:
The context shows that having this “fullness of deity” does not make Jesus Christ equal to God Almighty, as some want to believe. The word “godhead” does not exist except as a poor translation of what is actually the “divine quality” of the Son from his Father. It is a trinitarian invention.

In the preceding chapter, Paul states: “For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.” (Colossians 1:19-20 - NASB)
So the Father is the one who caused Christ to have “the fullness” of the divine quality. Like all things pertaining to Jesus, they were given to him by his Father.....his teachings, his powers, his wisdom and knowledge did not originate from Jesus, but all things originated with the Father, including his precious son.

At Colossians 1:15, Paul says that Jesus “is the image of the invisible God,” not God himself. He is a reflection of all that his Father is. An “image” is not the real thing, just as a photograph is not you. Passports and driver’s licences have photographs so that authorities can identify you. The picture is simply what you look like, but Jesus embodied all of his Father’s qualities. He was not his physical image because spirits have no physical form.

Colossians 1:19-22 describes the reconciliation that God brings about through Christ. We are reconciled to God not to Jesus. He is the mediator who facilitated this reconciliation.....

And Colossians 2:12 shows that God raised Jesus from the dead. Christ did not raise himself.

Add to that the fact that Paul later says that “Christ is seated at the right hand of God.” (Colossians 3:1) Do you not find it strange that not once is the Holy Spirit said to be seated at God’s left hand? Where is the equal threesome?

These statements show that possession of this “fullness” does not make Jesus Christ identical with his God, (the Almighty) but it does make Jesus a “holy servant” of his God and Father. (Acts 4:27)

If you simply give a scripture without knowledge of its context, it is pointless because the true meaning is lost. It’s why we need to study the Bible.

What is The Holy Spirit in your beliefs?

 

[farouk]

What is The Holy Spirit in your beliefs?

@RLT63 It is by the Holy Spirit that believers have been born again, so He is fundamental to a believer's Christian experience.............

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes to all except the last one which doesn't concern me in the slightest.

From my time in Israel in the 80's I learned that converts lost their jobs and the family held a funeral for them. So why should I be concerned what they think ? The ministry I was associated with had to pick up the pieces and give support to new Jewish believers.

 

[Aunty Jane]

el gibbor. Used in reference to the child in Isaiah 9:6; used in reference to other people in scripture, too. What does that tell us?

Good point....only word studies reveal that translations can sometime be sadly lacking and open to bias.

Isaiah 9:6-7...
“For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the Lord of armies will accomplish this.” (NASB)

“The Lord of armies” here in the original Hebrew is Yahweh. The Almighty is accomplishing his will and purpose through his agent...the “holy servant” whom he “sent” to save those who are not fooled by the great deceiver.

So much of this prophesy is lost because of the trinity....concentration is on the wrong elements....trying to prove that this “child” is God himself, when the words used in their original language mean the opposite.

The term in the Hebrew, el gibbór, “mighty God,” is not limited to Jehovah, but the term el Shaddái, “God Almighty,” is. “Mighty god” is not “Almighty God”. Jesus is powerful, but receives his power from his Father. We saw this at his baptism when Holy Spirit came down from heaven and anointed him as Messiah. From that time onward he could use God’s power to perform miracles....but not before. If he had been God incarnate, then his powers would have been obvious from an early age. It’s the reason why his siblings did not put faith in him until after his death and resurrection. He was just their older brother.....nothing really special about his abilities, but he was physically perfect (sinless) so he would have been a hard act to follow for those who came after him.

Added to that is the fact that the “government” that rests on the shoulders of this “Prince of Peace” is obscured because it is often overlooked in the scramble to prove their trinity.
The “government” that he will administer is the most important part of the whole kingdom of God...it was the theme of Jesus’ entire ministry. He was to be it’s king but he remains a “Prince”....the son of a King.

 

[RLT63]

@RLT63 It is by the Holy Spirit that believers have been born again, so He is fundamental to a believer's Christian experience.............

I am interested in Aunty Jane's beliefs about The Holy Spirit that's why I was asking her

 

[farouk]

I am interested in Aunty Jane's beliefs about The Holy Spirit that's why I was asking her

Okay............

 

[Aunty Jane]

What is The Holy Spirit in your beliefs?

The Holy Spirit is the administration of God’s enormous power. The power that created the Universe and that is administered in the right measure and in an appropriate way depending on the circumstances. It is not a conscious separate entity, which is reinforced by the fact that it has no name....and is often not mentioned in connection with the Father and the son. (e.g. John 17:3)

An example of the nature of God’s spirit was seen in connection with the situation that Moses found himself in when responsibility for the nation of Israel was squarely resting on his shoulders. He was now over 80 years of age and apparently not a good communicator, so God appointed his brother Aaron as his spokesman to Pharaoh.

When the load of carrying this rebellious people became too heavy, his father-in-law suggested delegating some of his responsibilities to others. This had God’s approval, so he told Moses to select 70 qualified men and then God took “some of the spirit” that was on Moses and apportioned it out among the 70. (Numbers 11:24-25) How can this be a person?
It is 'personified' in scripture, but then so are a lot of other things.

In the first century the Holy Spirit “filled” people and they were empowered to do supernatural things. They could heal the sick, raise the dead, speak in languages that they had never learned.....

This I believe shows us that the Holy Spirit is not what most people in Christendom have been led to believe.

 

[BeyondET]

Yes

Then both Paul and Apollos was one, same Spirit within them.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@RLT63 It is by the Holy Spirit that believers have been born again, so He is fundamental to a believer's Christian experience.............

The holy spirit is fundamental to the "chosen ones" ("saints"...those with the "heavenly calling" Hebrews 3:1) because it is necessary for their transformation into spirit beings upon their resurrection. This is what being "born again" means.....a human is transformed upon their resurrection into a completely new body to facilitate existence in a completely different realm....one that "flesh and blood" cannot inherit. (1 Corinthians 15:50)

Without the aid of God's spirit no one can even come into close proximity to the one who was God's representative on earth. (John 6:65)

 

[Matthias]

Yes to all except the last one which doesn't concern me in the slightest.

Is this in response to my post #1920?

“Does this tell you that Jesus is God?” - Yes

“Does this tell you that Jesus is the Father?” - Yes

“Does this tell you that Jesus is your God?” - Yes

“Does this tell you that Jesus is the Trinity?” - Yes

“What does it tell a Jew?” - It doesn’t concern you in the slightest.

From my time in Israel in the 80's I learned that converts lost their jobs and the family held a funeral for them. So why should I be concerned what they think ? The ministry I was associated with had to pick up the pieces and give support to new Jewish believers.

Does the ministry you were associated with assert and affirm orthodoxy?

 

[BeyondET]

The Holy Spirit is the administration of God’s enormous power. The power that created the Universe and that is administered in the right measure and in an appropriate way depending on the circumstances. It is not a conscious separate entity, which is reinforced by the fact that it has no name....and is often not mentioned in connection with the Father and the son. (e.g. John 17:3)

An example of the nature of God’s spirit was seen in connection with the situation that Moses found himself in when responsibility for the nation of Israel was squarely resting on his shoulders. He was now over 80 years of age and apparently not a good communicator, so God appointed his brother Aaron as his spokesman to Pharaoh.

When the load of carrying this rebellious people became too heavy, his father-in-law suggested delegating some of his responsibilities to others. This had God’s approval, so he told Moses to select 70 qualified men and then God took “some of the spirit” that was on Moses and apportioned it out among the 70. (Numbers 11:24-25) How can this be a person?
It is 'personified' in scripture, but then so are a lot of other things.

In the first century the Holy Spirit “filled” people and they were empowered to do supernatural things. They could heal the sick, raise the dead, speak in languages that they had never learned.....

This I believe shows us that the Holy Spirit is not what most people in Christendom have been led to believe.

Nothing is to heavy, its not a good example of the nature.

 

[RLT63]

The Holy Spirit is the administration of God’s enormous power. The power that created the Universe and that is administered in the right measure and in an appropriate way depending on the circumstances. It is not a conscious separate entity, which is reinforced by the fact that it has no name....and is often not mentioned in connection with the Father and the son. (e.g. John 17:3)

An example of the nature of God’s spirit was seen in connection with the situation that Moses found himself in when responsibility for the nation of Israel was squarely resting on his shoulders. He was now over 80 years of age and apparently not a good communicator, so God appointed his brother Aaron as his spokesman to Pharaoh.

When the load of carrying this rebellious people became too heavy, his father-in-law suggested delegating some of his responsibilities to others. This had God’s approval, so he told Moses to select 70 qualified men and then God took “some of the spirit” that was on Moses and apportioned it out among the 70. (Numbers 11:24-25) How can this be a person?
It is 'personified' in scripture, but then so are a lot of other things.

In the first century the Holy Spirit “filled” people and they were empowered to do supernatural things. They could heal the sick, raise the dead, speak in languages that they had never learned.....

This I believe shows us that the Holy Spirit is not what most people in Christendom have been led to believe.

Thanks for your answer