What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God

[Wrangler]

He is an unnamed servant.

Isn't that unequal to named servants?

 

[Wrangler]

More than funny - it's nonsensical...UNLESS YOU EXISTED BEFORE ABRAHAM EXISTED WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT HE MEANT TO SAY.

No one is denying that. The point is to claim that I am older than another is NOT a claim of being a deity.

 

[RLT63]

Isn't that unequal to named servants?

Relational subordination does not make him any less equal. He glorifies the Son.

 

[Matthias]

I don’t think Jesus was reminding his ex-followers that he is older than Abraham.

 

[Wrangler]

Relational subordination does not make him any less equal.

LOL No matter how unequal someone is, they are still equal! Gotcha!

 

[RLT63]

LOL No matter how unequal someone is, they are still equal! Gotcha!

I have a supervisor at my job, I am subordinate to him but we are both men. Being subordinate does not make the Holy Spirit any less God. Jesus is subordinate to the Father.

 

[RLT63]

No one is denying that. The point is to claim that I am older than another is NOT a claim of being a deity.

How did he exist before Abraham?

 

[Wrangler]

I have a supervisor at my job, I am subordinate to him but we are both men. Being subordinate does not make the Holy Spirit any less God. Jesus is subordinate to the Father.

The concept of equality you have has no rejection criteria. It's just asserted and then apply circular reasoning to scenario's that obliterate the claim.

There is no person 'Holy Spirit.' Three attributes of god is that he is masculine, spirit and holy. These atttributes are pretty unequal to a distinct Being who is a person, who has a personal name AND was given all authority by the god who has these attributes.

What you claim is akin to saying that you are equal to my Big Smile. My Big Smile is subordinate to me but we both exist. Being subordinate does not make my Big Smile any less me ... Huh? Yes it sure does. An attribute of a Being is less than the Being the attribute is attributed to.

 

[RLT63]

The concept of equality you have has no rejection criteria. It's just asserted and then apply circular reasoning to scenario's that obliterate the claim.

There is no person 'Holy Spirit.' Three attributes of god is that he is masculine, spirit and holy. These atttributes are pretty unequal to a distinct Being who is a person, who has a personal name AND was given all authority by the god who has these attributes.

What you claim is akin to saying that you are equal to my Big Smile. My Big Smile is subordinate to me but we both exist. Being subordinate does not make my Big Smile any less me ... Huh? Yes it sure does. An attribute of a Being is less than the Being the attribute is attributed to.

The Holy Spirit is referred to as HE. Jesus said He shall glorify me. The Holy Spirit can be grieved and can be blasphemed. A smile can't. An attribute can't be grieved or blasphemed.
Mat 12:32

“Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come
Eph 4:30

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Jhn 16:13

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Jhn 16:14

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
How can an attribute guide, hear, speak and show?

 

[Matthias]

Abraham is an ancestor of Jesus. Jesus is a descendant of Abraham.

Ancestors aren’t younger than their descendants. Descendants aren’t older than their ancestors.

How did Jesus exist before Abraham is the right question to ask.

 

[Wrangler]

How did he exist before Abraham?

It does not matter one little bit. Jesus is not God. It doesn't matter about human's pre-existence. The 1C does not say to have no other gods before a triune god who is plural, us. The 1C says to have no other gods (which necessarily includes the trinitarian god) before the god who is singular, me.

The idea that we might not be able to answer an attribute of a creation of the creator changes nothing. Jesus himself says that he has a God, who we relate to as our Father, who is the only true God. Why does this not matter to you?

It's so odd given Jesus' comments + every Epistle explictly identifying the Father alone as God that people continue with the man-is-god thesis.

 

[RLT63]

It does not matter one little bit. Jesus is not God. It doesn't matter about human's pre-existence. The 1C does not say to have no other gods before a triune god who is plural, us. The 1C says to have no other gods (which necessarily includes the trinitarian god) before the god who is singular, me.

The idea that we might not be able to answer an attribute of a creation of the creator changes nothing. Jesus himself says that he has a God, who we relate to as our Father, who is the only true God. Why does this not matter to you?

It's so odd given Jesus' comments + every Epistle explictly identifying the Father alone as God that people continue with the man-is-god thesis.

You ignore the plain truth that is right before your eyes.

 

[RLT63]

Abraham is an ancestor of Jesus. Jesus is a descendant of Abraham.

Ancestors aren’t younger than their descendants. Descendants aren’t older than their ancestors.

How did Jesus exist before Abraham is the right question to ask.

They will just ignore or rationalize it.

 

[Wrangler]

How can an attribute guide, hear, speak and show?

Oy vey! You are taking personification to a ridiculous extreme as trinitarians must to defend the indefensible.

My spirit of friendliness may lead me to guide you, hear you, speak to you and show you things. This does not make my spirit, which is friendly, a 2nd person of the Wrangler.

YHWH is a god of power, mercy and grace. These are attributes. But why does he activate his attributes as he does? What motivates him? Some could say love, mercy and grace. Others say it is his spirit, which is holy and subsumes all these other attributes.

I think a good parallel is how many senses does a human have? Some say we have 5 but others say we have many more. Point is, we’d be foolish to equate the limits of what motivates man, what the limits of his spirit is to what limits god, what the limits of his spirit is.

To attempt to do so is to personify the Creator.

 

[Matthias]

They will just ignore or rationalize it.

Answers to the question vary.

My answer (Jewish monotheism) is incompatible with the answers given by trinitarians, binitarians and the majority of unitarians.

Jesus existed before Abraham but Jesus isn’t older than Abraham; Jesus is younger than Abraham.

Jesus wasn’t telling his ex-followers - and therefore he isn’t telling us - that he is older than Abraham. He isn’t telling them, nor is he telling us, that he is God himself.

Jesus is positionally before Abraham. His ex-followers once believed that he was, but no longer did. They believed that Abraham is greater than Jesus, whom they have now rejected.

This is all about whether or not Jesus is the Messiah.

 

[Wrangler]

You ignore the plain truth that is right before your eyes.

Here is the plain truth. Jesus did not teach the trinity. Jesus did not teach us to pray to a trinitarian god.

Jesus taught us to pray to god, using the intimate language of our relationship to our Creator, Father.

Jesus emphasized this god, who we relate to as his children, is in heaven. Jesus taught this while he was on Earth. So, you know they are 2 people or 2 Beings, if you please.

Finally, people pray FOR the attribute of the Holy Spirit not TO the attribute AS IF it is a person.

In conclusion to our prayer to Jesus’ God and our God, we invoke our brothers name, our master, our lord. We say, in Jesus name we pray. We pray to god for his holy spirit in the name of god’s son, Jesus.

BTW, when Jesus taught us to pray to god, who we relate to as our father, he emphasized this god has a holy name. 7,000 times in Scripture this holy name is revealed to us. It is not Jesus but YHWH.

This is the plain truth.

No machinations of trinitarians will change this plain truth for your enemy at every turn is:

1. Definition
2. Logic
3. Language Usage
4. Explicit Scripture.

 

[RLT63]

Oy vey! You are taking personification to a ridiculous extreme as trinitarians must to defend the indefensible.

My spirit of friendliness may lead me to guide you, hear you, speak to you and show you things. This does not make my spirit, which is friendly, a 2nd person of the Wrangler.

YHWH is a god of power, mercy and grace. These are attributes. But why does he activate his attributes as he does? What motivates him? Some could say love, mercy and grace. Others say it is his spirit, which is holy and subsumes all these other attributes.

I think a good parallel is how many senses does a human have? Some say we have 5 but others say we have many more. Point is, we’d be foolish to equate the limits of what motivates man, what the limits of his spirit is to what limits god, what the limits of his spirit is.

To attempt to do so is to personify the Creator.

You simply ignore the obvious to suit yourself.

 

[RLT63]

You simply ignore the obvious to suit yourself.

Luk 3:22

And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”
Jhn 14:26

“But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you
Act 13:2

As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
Act 15:28

For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things
Act 20:23

“except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me.
Act 20:28

“Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God[fn] which He purchased with His own blood.
Act 21:11

When he had come to us, he took Paul's belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, ‘So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.' ”

Rom 15:16

that I might be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Wrangler]

Luk 3:22

And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”

1. Notice how it does not read 'and the Holy Spirit said?' It means another Being, who was in a place the Holy Spirit was not, said the words. This other Being is God, who alone is the Father.

2. Also, do you notice how it reads the HS descended in a form - not IS or HAS a body in the shape of a bird?

3. Language Usage. Compare and Contrast: RLT63's shadow descended in bodily form, like a glove upon him. It doesn't mean an attribute of your existence, your shadow, is different person, right?

4. The plain truth is there is no 'God, The Holy Spirit' verse because that would contradict the one and only God, who we relate to as Father. Do you ever wonder why the only God explicitly identified is God the Father and why you always have to infer your doctrine from more ambiguous text?

Each specific instance of verses related to the Holy Spirit can be likewise broken down. (And I do hope you can give me a straight answer to the red underlined question.)

 

[RLT63]

Oy vey! You are taking personification to a ridiculous extreme as trinitarians must to defend the indefensible.

My spirit of friendliness may lead me to guide you, hear you, speak to you and show you things. This does not make my spirit, which is friendly, a 2nd person of the Wrangler.

YHWH is a god of power, mercy and grace. These are attributes. But why does he activate his attributes as he does? What motivates him? Some could say love, mercy and grace. Others say it is his spirit, which is holy and subsumes all these other attributes.

I think a good parallel is how many senses does a human have? Some say we have 5 but others say we have many more. Point is, we’d be foolish to equate the limits of what motivates man, what the limits of his spirit is to what limits god, what the limits of his spirit is.

To attempt to do so is to personify the Creator.

These are things YOU do. Your spirit doesn't. Your spirit is not a person. The Holy Spirit is