The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

[WPM]

2. What was His mark? Is it still around?

It is a spiritual mark. It has been there from the beginning. It relates to reprobation. All those who reject God’s way and go their own way end up with this mark. This mark sets apart the reprobate from the righteous. Genesis 4:15 tells us that “the LORD set a mark upon Cain.” This was Satan's first convert to populate Hades.

Amils believe the beast and his mark have been on the go from the beginning. Cain was the first reprobate. The Bible talks about the mark of Cain. This is a spiritual mark of reprobation.

Multitudes have been martyred for the faith. They now reign in heaven since the cross. They will not be attacked because Satan and the wicked will never have access the heaven. He can only attack the elect on earth. They will surround the saints for a little season prior to the second coming.

3. As you stated that verse 4 is just about Jesus rising from teh dead; how many thrones does He occupy? It is plural here.

One throne which He rules as God and man. As God, it is His Father's throne. As man, it is David's throne.

4. When was Jesus beheaded for testimony about Himself?

He was not. That must be your theology teaching you that.

5. What mark did He reject and what beast did He refuse to worship? Is it the same beast in rev. 13 that has teh heads and horns? If not why not? then what beast is it? If you say Satan, please provode evidence that Satan is also called a beast in Revelation.

The world's antichrist mark.

Now, will you answer my questions?

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes. The coming of the Lord is the end. Revelation shows no survivors, in keeping with the rest of Scripture. You reward the wicked by populating your millennium with billions of rebels.

Just like Jesus Christ over came death, he is now the funeral director in a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, where mortal humans are dying around him?

Yes throw in the rebellious sinners, and Satan being loosed for another battle and campaign, time for Jesus to vacate the Millennial throne and jump back up into the clouds of heaven for his triumphant victory?

Who can believe that man made Malarkey, it's a Tim LA Haye sci-fi fairy tale!

 

[WPM]

Just like Jesus Christ over came death, he is now the funeral director in a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, where mortal humans are dying around him?

Yes throw in the rebellious sinners, and Satan being loosed for another battle and campaign, time for Jesus to vacate the Millennial throne and jump back up into the clouds of heaven for his triumphant victory?

Who can believe that man made Malarkey, it's a Tim LA Haye sci-fi fairy tale!

Exactly. That is what we are dealing with.

 

[WPM]

No because jesus returns to earth in Rev. 19!!! REv. 20 tells us how long His kingdom lasts on earth! And if one accepts the bible as written, He raises the trib saints who were beheaded and they reign with Jesus for 1,000 years.

You have them reigning now with Him , but fail to answer when that resurrection of those beheraded took place, when the beast lived and when and what the mark is they all refused to take. You also have a t least two Jesus' for YOU declares rev. 20:4 is JUST about Jesus first resurrection.

Yes. This is the end. Rev 20 starts the last of 7 recaps, all culminating at the second coming.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes. The coming of the Lord is the end. Revelation shows no survivors, in keeping with the rest of Scripture. You reward the wicked by populating your millennium with billions of rebels.

Once again lying about me is unbecoming on you. I do not populate the earth with rebels.

I populate the earth as the bible declares- those that survived the "battle of Armageddon

In this narrative He comes as the Lord of glory and removes all evil with the power of His Word. He returns as a man of war to destroy all those left behind. Revelation 19:11 says, “in righteousness he doth judge and make war.” The imagery surrounding Christ in this reading is that of wrath and judgment. The nations have missed their day of opportunity like the wicked in previous judgments, now they must face their deserved recompense of destruction and eternal punishment. Christ comes in glory and power to pour out wrath, and we learn "His eyes were as a flame of fire.” Here we see the indignation that Christ has for these enemies of God upon the earth. Those that are left behind of the nations – without exception – are trampled into a lost eternity on this moment of time.

Well this is worrisome-- we agree! But disagree on timing.

The concluding phrase (“shall they be broken to shivers”) is actually taken from the lone Greek word suntribo (Strong’s 4937) meaning to crush completely, i.e. to shatter. This would suggest a total obliteration of the wicked at His appearing.

Suntribo means to break in puieces-= not shatter completely. It suggests breks not obliteration. YOu are wqrong!


!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Revelation 13:1: "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.”

What are these seven heads of the beast? We do not have to guess.

Revelation 17:9-13 further enlarges, “The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

There are layers to the symbolism of Revelation. The seven heads represent seven mountains, but the next level of interpretation seems to render the seven mountains seven kingdoms which seven kings reign over. After describing the seven mountains, we learn: “And there are seven kings.” Kings reign over kingdoms, not over physical mountains. The fact is: throughout Scripture, mountains represent kingdoms that kings reign over.

The symbolism is very deliberate. Jerusalem is built on seven mountains, so is Rome. The writer takes these and broadens them out to describe global realties. He may well have lent the idea of the Roman empire to impress the wider influence of godless power through the generations by using the symbolism of seven mountains to depict the completeness of the wickedness of this world.

Mountains in Scripture are often identified with kingdoms. The mountain of the house of God is clearly the kingdom of God. Mountains are identified with carnal kingdoms while hills are associated with smaller worldly nations. The seven heads, which are mountains, represent seven carnal kingdoms that have been arrayed against God’s people in Scripture. Of these seven kingdoms, five are prior to John’s prophecy, one present to him and one is yet future. Moreover, the seventh kingdom is predicted to manifest for “a short space.” Interestingly, there is an eighth kingdom. This is the beast himself, obviously rising up in his own right rather than in a delegated sense (through other evil earthly empires) like before.

The woman sitting upon the beast represents the religious whore sitting upon “seven” secular “mountains” (or kingdoms) ruled by “seven kings.” The seven heads expressly symbolize seven kingdoms before, during and after John’s day. Each has a distinct individual ruler.

The beast is said to be integral to the other seven previous kingdoms; this beast “was” before John – obviously manifesting through the five tributary kingdoms before John, he “is” to John in the form of the one kingdom in existence at the time of John, and one is still future to John as it has “not yet come.” Additional to this we learn, “the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.” The seven kingdoms are seven heads on the beast – thus the beast is described as being “of the seven.” The seven heads are part of this being. The number seven is significant as it normally represents completeness in Scripture. This book places the beast within the complete scheme of this dark antichrist reign.

This beast obviously represents the overall influence of Satan from which all the other individual kingdoms emanate throughout time. The beast system is that demonic spirit/influence/empire overseeing every wicked kingdom upon earth from the beginning. This worldly beast embodies the wickedness that controls the kingdoms of this world. It seems to influence the overall system that is energized by the spirit of this world.

At the cross the beast went “into perdition” being curtailed in his wholesale deluding of the Gentile people. Notwithstanding, the beast is associated with the reign of evil on this earth throughout this intra-Advent period, although restrained from what the beast would have desired through the Gospel influence. Prior to the end this beast is released from his spiritual restraints and moves to the fore. This is his time to finally flex his muscles. This is his final throw.

As he starts to perpetrate his antichrist agenda, the beast establishes “ten kings” to do his dirty work. These operate from within the beast kingdom. They are described as the beast’s “ten horns.” This reign of havoc only seems to be short: they are said to “receive power as kings one hour with the beast.” There is unity amongst these kings, “These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.” These emissaries of the devil's kingdom promote and enforce the devil's antichrist system.

We need to piece together this symbolism and align it with history in order to establish its full meaning. Firstly, Rome was one of the four kingdoms Daniel saw. It was also the existing kingdom when John received this prophesy here. John sees five great kingdoms before the one existing in his day (Rome). Three of the five former kingdoms probably refer to Daniel’s kingdoms: Babylon, Media and Persia and Grecia. This leaves two more – obviously subsequent to them. I believe these refer to the Egyptian Dynasty and the Assyria rule.

1. Egyptian empire
2. Assyrian empire
3. Babylonian empire
4. Media and Persia empire
5. Greek empire (five were)
6. Roman empire (one is existing at the time of the writing of Revelation)
7. One further evil empire (between Rome and the beast at the end)
8. The beast.

Simon Kistermaker suggests a slight modification:

1. Assyrian empire
2. Babylonian empire
3. Neo-Babylonian empire
4. Media and Persia empire
5. Greek empire (five were)
6. Roman empire (one is existing at the time of the writing of Revelation)
7. One further evil empire (between Rome and the beast at the end)
8. The beast.

Many commentators see these kingdoms as those who stood against God’s people but also invaded and subjugated natural Israel.

If we are seeing this right then that still leaves two other significant wicked empires after Rome. Whilst we know the last empire is the beast (after his release from the abyss), that still leaves us with the seventh kingdom which appears before end. With the aid of history, we could certainly speculate what the penultimate wicked kingdom is in-between the Roman Empire (in Bible times) and the last wicked unrestrained manifestation of the beast at the end. A popular view that many Bible students and historians hold is that it is the Ottoman Empire. This was certainly one of the greatest empires in history. Moreover, it actually spanned three continents. This in essence was an Islamic Empire? Whilst there have been other evil systems like Fascism and Communism that have arisen in this past hundred years, the only empire to be a direct threat to Christianity since the Roman Empire of the first century has been the Ottoman Empire. This also totally overrun natural Israel.

1. Egyptian empire
2. Assyrian empire
3. Babylonian empire
4. Media and Persian empire
5. Greek empire
6. Roman empire
7. Ottoman empire (???)
8. The beast empire

It could be argued that Christianity significantly wounded the Ottoman Empire. But today it is returning. The Ottoman empire was of course, Muslim. And we see Islam rising again, and with the same goals of a global Islamic Caliphate. It is today, once again, a direct threat to Christianity (and everybody else for that matter).

Could the revived kingdom be Mystery Babylon – a wicked global manifestation of all that opposes God, and a reflection of the evil character of ancient Babylon. Could it be a revitalized Rome, in the shape of the Roman Catholic Church?

The fact that the beast possesses seven obnoxious heads representing seven evil kingdoms throughout time, five of which were already destroyed before John, the sixth was the Roman Empire existing when he lived, the seventh was to appear somewhere between the Roman Empire, and the second coming of the Lord shows the absurdity of the contention that the beast is a man. What human being in history survived submerged below the sea for more than a few minutes? The next thing the literalist will be telling us is that babies really do come from under cabbage plants!

Still didn't answer the question with all thatr verbage. who is the beast- for teh beast is a person and what was His mark. As you say Rev. 20 refersw to Jesus only- then the plural Jesus of REv. 20 was beheaded for notr worshipping the beast nor wearing his mark. so who is the beast, what is/was his mark. Is it the same mark of rev. 13?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It is a spiritual mark. It has been there from the beginning. It relates to reprobation. All those who reject God’s way and go their own way end up with this mark. This mark sets apart the reprobate from the righteous. Genesis 4:15 tells us that “the LORD set a mark upon Cain.” This was Satan's first convert to populate Hades.

Amils believe the beast and his mark have been on the go from the beginning. Cain was the first reprobate. The Bible talks about the mark of Cain. This is a spiritual mark of reprobation.

Multitudes have been martyred for the faith. They now reign in heaven since the cross. They will not be attacked because Satan and the wicked will never have access the heaven. He can only attack the elect on earth. They will surround the saints for a little season prior to the second coming.

If it is a spiritual mark why does it have to be placed on the forehead or right hand? It says no one can buy or sell save they have that mark? If it ihas been around since Cain then why is the command issued in the last 7 years of histroy?

YOu still have not identified the beast and what is his mark. Are you now saying teh beast has been around since Cain and ordered all to wear his mark since Cain?

Multitudes have been martyred for the faith. They now reign in heaven since the cross. They will not be attacked because Satan and the wicked will never have access the heaven. He can only attack the elect on earth. They will surround the saints for a little season prior to the second coming.

but Rev. 20 says they were martyred for their testimony and because they refuses teh mark and did n't worship the beast- very specific reasons!

You said that rev. 20:4-6 is just about Jesus . so Jesus sits on thrones bvecause these beheaded Jesus' sit on thrones plural not singular.

 

[WPM]

Still didn't answer the question with all thatr verbage. who is the beast- for teh beast is a person and what was His mark. As you say Rev. 20 refersw to Jesus only- then the plural Jesus of REv. 20 was beheaded for notr worshipping the beast nor wearing his mark. so who is the beast, what is/was his mark. Is it the same mark of rev. 13?

Contrary to what many imagine, or have been taught, the beast, antichrist, the mystery of iniquity, the son of perdition, and that wicked one, have been about for 2,000 years+. The beast therefore has to be a system, kingdom or a spirit. It obviously cannot be a man.

Most Bible scholars of whatever persuasion identify “the beast” with “antichrist” and the “mystery of iniquity”. They believe that they all refer to the same entity. Other titles include, “that man of sin,” “the son of perdition,” and “that Wicked” one.

The reason why many good Bible scholars have held that the “man of sin” is not a lone human being is because he has been alive and kicking for a lot longer than the lifetime of any human. In fact, the beast/antichrist/the mystery of iniquity/the son of perdition/that Wicked one has been about for 2,000 years+.

 

[WPM]

If it is a spiritual mark why does it have to be placed on the forehead or right hand? It says no one can buy or sell save they have that mark? If it ihas been around since Cain then why is the command issued in the last 7 years of histroy?

YOu still have not identified the beast and what is his mark. Are you now saying teh beast has been around since Cain and ordered all to wear his mark since Cain?



but Rev. 20 says they were martyred for their testimony and because they refuses teh mark and did n't worship the beast- very specific reasons!

You said that rev. 20:4-6 is just about Jesus . so Jesus sits on thrones bvecause these beheaded Jesus' sit on thrones plural not singular.

The mark of the beast has to be the mark of reprobation that ensures a man will never see heaven. Men are obviously either saved or unsaved – but not all unsaved men have yet taken this mark of reprobation (mark of the beast). Many will eventually be saved at some future juncture. The message for them is to repent lest they receive this spiritual mark and spend eternity under the wrath of God as a consequence. The Lord is still evidently in the saving business. However, when men go over a line of disobedience (set by God) they will never again be saved.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes. This is the end. Rev 20 starts the last of 7 recaps, all culminating at the second coming.

And what are the "7 recaps"?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Contrary to what many imagine, or have been taught, the beast, antichrist, the mystery of iniquity, the son of perdition, and that wicked one, have been about for 2,000 years+. The beast therefore has to be a system, kingdom or a spirit. It obviously cannot be a man.

Most Bible scholars of whatever persuasion identify “the beast” with “antichrist” and the “mystery of iniquity”. They believe that they all refer to the same entity. Other titles include, “that man of sin,” “the son of perdition,” and “that Wicked” one.

The reason why many good Bible scholars have held that the “man of sin” is not a lone human being is because he has been alive and kicking for a lot longer than the lifetime of any human. In fact, the beast/antichrist/the mystery of iniquity/the son of perdition/that Wicked one has been about for 2,000 years+.

So then teh mark could not have been around with Cain then.

so what exactly is the beast and what is His mark in your opinion.

I know what I believe, I am trying to find out what you believe.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The mark of the beast has to be the mark of reprobation that ensures a man will never see heaven. Men are obviously either saved or unsaved – but not all unsaved men have yet taken this mark of reprobation (mark of the beast). Many will eventually be saved at some future juncture. The message for them is to repent lest they receive this spiritual mark and spend eternity under the wrath of God as a consequence. The Lord is still evidently in the saving business. However, when men go over a line of disobedience (set by God) they will never again be saved.

Well seeing as we are all born unsaved- we all bear teh mark of reprobation by nature! Bible in plain language says if anyone takes the mark they are damned forever. Seems like with you we are all lost!

But what do y0ou mean by reprobation? I do not want to usethe standard definition to find out you define it differently.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well when you and Paul learn what pre mils believe maybe we can learn together.

We know what premils believe. We both used to be premils. You, however, clearly are ignorant about some of the things amils believe.

but Paul said 1000 years is not 1000 years. You said 1000 years is not 1000 years. I am quoting you!

That isn't what I was talking about. It's obvious that Amils don't see the thousand years a literal thousand years. No, I was surprised that you didn't already know that we believe that the 1000 years already started. That is what I was talking about.

and that is what I know you said! so I have not misquoted you.

When did I say you misquoted me? Your reading comprehension skills need work.

According to you this unkown time frame called 1000 years began when Jesus rose from teh dead.

Right. And you're saying you already knew that? If so, why did you ask if I believed the thousand years started already?

OK

then please answer these questions or problems with your theology.

Revelation 20:4-7
King James Version

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

1.So who were these who live and reign with Christ?

Notice that John said that he saw the souls of martyrs. So, they are physically dead but their souls are alive in heaven. But, in Revelation 20:6 it says those who have part in the first resurrection are "priests of God and of Christ". In Revelation 1:5-6, it indicates that Jesus reigns now and that believers are currently priests of God and of Christ. So, Revelation 20:6 should be understood accordingly.

2. It says they were beheaded for thE witness of Jesus, and did not worship the beast or take his mark.

I don't have time to go into this in detail, but I do not see the beast as being an individual Antichrist or anything like that. The beast generally symbolizes the world and its kingdoms. Notice in Revelation 17:8 that it says "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition". So, the beast existed even before John wrote the book of Revelation. It was in the bottomless pit (abyss) at the time he was writing, which I see as having the same effect as Satan being in the bottomless pit, which is that it is a restraint rather than rendering the beast or the dragon (Satan) to be completely incapacitated.

3. So these events must have happened during Jesus earthly life before Calvary! YOU said Jesus began His reign after HIS RESURRECTION

What events are you talking about? What you said in verse 2? No, it's talking about things that happen during the thousand years, not before. It is YOUR assumption that they happen before the thousand years, but I don't have to go by your assumptions.

4. who is this beast during Jesus lifetime?

As I said, I believe the beast generally refers to the world and its kingdoms.

5.. what was this beasts' mark?

I believe it is a spiritual mark that is the spiritual counterpart to the seal of God, which I believe is a symbolic representation for those who have the seal of the Holy Spirit, as other scripture talks about.

Revelation 13:8 indicates that all whose names are not written in the book of life worship the beast. And other text indicates that all who worship the beast have the mark of the beast. So, it's a spiritual mark that all unbelievers have that marks them as not belonging to Christ but belonging to the world instead. We believers are not of the world (John 15:19), but unbelievers are.

6. Is it the same beast as REv. 13 or a different beast?

Same, but it has taken different forms over time. At one time it was represented in the form of the Babylonian empire. And then the Medo-persian empire and then the Greek empire and then the Roman empire. It's the world empire at any given point in history. That's why in Revelation 13:8 it says that ALL whose names are not written in the book of life worship the beast. All people are either with Christ or against Him (Matt 12:30). If you are not with Him, then your loyalty lies with Satan and this evil world. With the beast, in other words. But, we are not of the world because our names are written in the book of life.

7. It says that those who take part in this first resurrection are blessed and holy and the second death has no power over them?

Yes, it does say that. What is the question here?

8. Does that mean the second death has power over us who are alive now as we were not part of this first resurrection?

You are the one saying we are not part of the first resurrection, not me. But, consider that it says that those who have part in the first resurrection are "priests of God and of Christ". When do people become "priests of God and of Christ"? Read this:

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Can you see here that believers RIGHT NOW are "priests of God and of Christ"? What does that tell you about the timing of Revelation 20:6? It should tell you that it's talking about a current reality. Yes, John was speaking of those who are physically dead whose souls he saw in heaven. But, they reign with Christ because they had part in the first resurrection, which is Christ's resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5), by way of putting their faith in Christ and becoming His follower.

9. Or do you believe like Paul that all this is all wrong and means Jesus resurrection alone?

That all what is wrong? I believe YOU are wrong, but the scripture is right every time.

I hope you answer these. We really need to know your position to move on in a =n knowing what you believe way.

I have been explaining my position all along while showing the scripture I use to support my view. Have you somehow not seen that? It's kind of crazy for you to think I need to explain my view when I have already done that many times.

See, with dispensational pre-mil believers, you do not need to ask these questions.

Oh, really? You all agree on who or what the beast is, what the mark is, etc.? I think not. Regardless, this doesn't mean anything, anyway. It just shows how simplistic and literal your approach is to a highly symbolic book. It's a ridiculous interpretive approach.

For when a passage is clear, succinct and straightforward like this with no language suggesting it is to be translated another way we accept it a face value.

LOL. What book are you reading? The book of Revelation that I'm reading contains a great deal of symbolic language and is not written in a "clear, succinct and straightforward" way like some other scripture is. That is obvious. This is the problem with Premils. They often interpret symbolic text literally and literal text symbolically (or not as literally as they should - 2 Peter 3:10-12 is one example).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

God said 6 times there is a 1,000 year time- I accept that, you say God didn'tr mean it.

Do you think the number of times the thousand years is mentioned has anything to do with whether it is a literal thousand years or not?

I showed you why Jesus can't be teh first resurrection of REv. 20:6 and you refuse to acknowledge your position is a rewrite of SCriptures.

Compare the following two passages and notice the similarities:

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Both passages talk about Christ reigning. Both passages refer to a first resurrection. Revelation 1:5 is alluding to the fact that Christ's resurrection was the first unto bodily immortality, as other scripture alludes to as well (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18). Both passages talk about His people reigning with Him as priests in His kingdom. Both passages speak of the benefits of having part in a first resurrection. With all of this in mind, why would you not determine the timing of Revelation 20:6 based on the timing of Revelation 1:5-6? The timing of Revelation 1:5-6 is clearly the time starting long ago when Christ rose from the dead. It was at that time that He began to reign and His followers became "kings and priests unto God and his Father". With that in mind, why think that Revelation 20:6 is talking about a future time when it talks about Christ reigning with His followers who are "priests of God and of Christ"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

already answered all those claims you make against those verses.

You did? Where did you indicate how you interpret John 5:28-29, Matthew 25:31-46 or 2 Peter 3:10-13?

No my claims against amil cvome out of you and Pual's mouths.

And I noticed you still havent replied to the scores of verses I gave you about the kingdom.

How much time do you think I have? An endless amount? Good grief. I did just answer several of your questions in another post, so I hope you're satisfied with that. I don't have time to reply to your "scores of verses".

Let me ask you this:

It is written that Jesus will rule with a rod of iron. You say Jesus is ruling now! Look around the world- do you believe He is ruling with a rod of iron ???? Or is that symbolic to you as well and god didn't mean Jesus would rule with a rod of iron.

Read Revelation 19:15-18 and Psalm 2:7-9. Those give the context of what it means for Him to rule with a rod of iron. The context of both passages is all about complete DESTRUCTION. So, He will be destroying all of His enemies with His rod of iron. Psalm 2:9 compares it to breaking a vase into pieces. Revelation 19:15-18 talks about Him ruling with a rod of iron in conjunction with Him smiting (destroying) His enemies and treading them in the fierceness and wrath of God. So, how are you getting that He will rule over these people for a thousand years when the context indicates that He will DESTROY them when He returns?

 

[WPM]

Well seeing as we are all born unsaved- we all bear teh mark of reprobation by nature! Bible in plain language says if anyone takes the mark they are damned forever. Seems like with you we are all lost!

But what do y0ou mean by reprobation? I do not want to usethe standard definition to find out you define it differently.

Totally disagree that we all carry the mark of reprobation. Where do you get that in the Bible? The Bible teaches we are all by nature the children of wrath. BIG difference.

 

[WPM]

And what are the "7 recaps"?

Many see 7 cycles in Revelation relating to the intra-Advent period. These parallel each other.

Cycle 1

Cycle 1 is basically introductory. It is the only vision that was received on Patmos.

It relates to direct messages relating to the conduct of the seven churches (Ch 2-3).

CYCLE 2 (received in heaven)

Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)

CYCLE 3 (received in heaven)

Seven Trumpets (Ch 8:6-10:7)

CYCLE 4 (received in heaven)

The Church and its onslaught from the devil (Ch 12) including a parallel view of the beast’s (the world antichrist system – intra-advent) persecution of the elect (Ch 13) and the simultaneous joy of the redeemed (Ch 14) in heaven (Ch 12-14).

CYCLE 5 (received in heaven)

Seven Vials (Ch 16)

CYCLE 6 (received in heaven)

Babylon (17-19)

CYCLE 7 (received in heaven)

The figurative binding of Satan from the cross and the victorious reign of the saints in heaven. The ushering in of the New Heaven and the New Earth (Ch 20-22).

It is interesting that each of these parallels that were received in heaven (2-7) start with the Greek word kai ("And") even though they commence a new vision pertaining to the intra-Advent period and ending at the second coming.

 

[WPM]

So then teh mark could not have been around with Cain then.

so what exactly is the beast and what is His mark in your opinion.

I know what I believe, I am trying to find out what you believe.

It is the spirit of this world that controls wicked empires through the ages.

 

[WPM]

Once again lying about me is unbecoming on you. I do not populate the earth with rebels.

I populate the earth as the bible declares- those that survived the "battle of Armageddon

How about actually telling us where the Bible teaches that there will be survivors after the "battle of Armageddon," instead of making these fantastic claims?

Well this is worrisome-- we agree! But disagree on timing.

Suntribo means to break in puieces-= not shatter completely. It suggests breks not obliteration. YOu are wqrong!

Not only are you misrepresenting what it says in the Bible in order to get Premil to fit, you also require your own Lexicon to force a meaning on the original text in order for your beliefs to fit. Suntribo means to crush. No survivors I am afraid.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

We know what premils believe. We both used to be premils. You, however, clearly are ignorant about some of the things amils believe.

• And what doctrines did you study? Just like in covenant theology, in dispensational theology, there are some very strange premil teachings out there.