The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

[WPM]

Jesus' Gospel was a "Gospel of the Kingdom." That is a "theocracy." There clearly will be an eschatological theocracy under the New Covenant.

You are fighting Christ and the NT Scripture here. You have nothing (nothing!) to support your thesis in the NT. Christ did not teach a literal temporal territorial physical kingdom based in physical Jerusalem. He spiritualized it and showed it was a heavenly eternal kingdom. As Spiritual Israelite and myself have repeatedly showed you, Jesus made it clear that His kingdom "does not come with observation" (Luke 17:20) and "is not of this world" (John 18:36). Can i remind you, that we have left the old covenant arrangement forever, and have entered the new covenant? Why will you not let the old covenant go? You want to define the kingdom of God by its old covenant shadow and type, instead of its New Testament spiritual reality and substance.

Christ came to introduce a spiritual kingdom that was entered not by sight but only by faith. Jesus declared in John 3:3, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

This is expressly a spiritual kingdom as it relates to the spiritual realm. The blessing and rewards of the kingdom are plainly spiritual in nature and pertain exclusively to the repentant sinner. It relates to the unseen realm where the people are governed by their mediator King. A kingdom must have a king to be considered a kingdom. Christ rules this kingdom, not by force, but love. Those that subject to His authority are administered by the Word of God and the Spirit of God. Premil denies Christ His current kingship over His spiritual domain with its constant future focus upon the kinship of Christ. Whilst there is a future aspect to Christ’s kingship, there is also the current reality.

John testified in Revelation 1:9: “I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom.”

If Christ’s kingdom is not yet come, then what kingdom was it that John resided in?

Hebrews 12:28: “Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.”

The error in Premil theology is in their understanding of the actual nature of the kingdom. It has no reference to physical worldly governments but rather God’s spiritual government over His people throughout all nations. Kingdom life pertains to the elect alone.

The kingdom of God in the New Testament does not refer to a political or earthly kingdom. The word kingdom simply means ‘king [with a] domain’. Its meaning includes the territory and the people over whom the King rules and exercises sovereign authority. The term also includes the legislation and laws that administrate that kingdom. The word employed in the New Testament for ‘kingdom’ is the Greek word ‘Basileia’ denoting ‘sovereignty, royal power, kingship and dominion’. A kingdom must therefore have (1) a king – a head, (2) a domain to rule over – subjects and territory, (3) a structure of administration – ethics, rules and laws which govern it.

The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises His Divine kingship, dominion and intimate rule. It includes heaven (and all those who are in heaven) – the place where with the kingdom is centered and administrated.

Romans 14:17 sums it up like this: “For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink (or, the kingdom of God is not material things); but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.”

The kingdom is summed up in 3 words:

· righteousness
· peace
· joy

When you truly enter the kingdom of God on this earth you inherit: “righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.”

Here in this passage again we see that the kingdom of God is not a physical temporal kingdom that can be naturally observed or enjoyed but rather a spiritual kingdom, which is spiritually entered. The peace spoken of here is the peace that pertains to those saved by God’s Sovereign grace, and who belong to the spiritual kingdom of God. Not only would Messiah’s kingdom be characterized by peace, but He also would be “the prince of peace” (Isaiah 9:6). It was also not of this world – it was a heavenly kingdom.

Jesus declared in Matthew 6:31-34, “take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.”

Premils often make the same mistake as the Pharisees did in their interpretation of the Old Testament prophecies. They interpret the Old Testament references to the kingdom in a literal, physical, visible, earthly temporal sense, when Christ demonstrated their fulfilment in a literal, spiritual, invisible, heavenly eternal sense. Many Christians today, like many Jews before them, are mistakenly looking forward to a physical reign of Christ on this sin-cursed earth. Such people, who call themselves Premillennialists, believe that Christ will set up an earthly kingdom, which will be concentrated on the actual city of Jerusalem. They believe that it is only at this stage that He will finally reign over His enemies and rule over the nations. However, Christ is not coming to reign over His enemies; He is coming to destroy them.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I understand that not every premil believes exactly the same, but I am familiar with all of the basics and the better known variants of premil. You, on the other hand, are very lacking in your understanding of even the basics of Amil that most Amils agree on.

Well judging by you and SI there is big chasms in beliefs.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This text exposes your position here. Can you not admit that? You are fighting with Scripture. You are forcing your theology on the sacred text. You are adding unto Scripture. That is not wise.

No. but you like making accusations without showing why your accusations have any validity.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You just aren't paying attention to what I'm telling you. I think you have very poor reading comprehension skills. I do not see the first resurrection as being a mass bodily resurrection as you do. Do you understand that?

so then who are those ?REv. 20 describes as being raised and were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus? also they di dnot worship the beast or take his mark? who are they? or did John miswrite here?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The recaps are parallel to each other, so it isn't a matter of which one we are in now. Each recap covers the time period from Christ's first coming to His second coming. We can see things described that are related to the day of His return in several passages in Revelation, such as Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 11:15-18, Revelation 14:14-20, Revelation 16:17-21, Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:9.

So the first seal is equivalent to the first trump and first bowl? Care to show me some of the fulfillments of these "recaps" as you call them in history??

 

[Ronald Nolette]

How is it worse for amils to disagree on something than it is for premils? That is complete nonsense. Don't we all believe we get our understanding from God?

And would you please capitalize God for crying out loud? You come across as someone that I find very difficult to take seriously because you are so incredibly immature.

Well as I was told by you or Paul, it takes discernement- while pre-mil doesn't. so one of you has had false discernment.
Well my typing is bad because of severe arthritis. If you can't deal with that- place me on your ignore list. But I could care less what you think of me.

 

[WPM]

so then who are those ?REv. 20 describes as being raised and were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus? also they di dnot worship the beast or take his mark? who are they? or did John miswrite here?

They are the redeemed down through history who were not eternally beguiled by the spirit of this world which controls wicked empires.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Your error is that you are interpreting Armageddon to be a literal, physical place on earth. That is not how it works in Revelation. It refers to spiritual or figurative entities by names used in ancient times such as Babylon. Babylon in Revelation is not a literal physical place on the earth called Babylon. Another example of this is in Revelation 20:8 where it refers to the people from all over the earth who oppose "the camp of the saints" figuratively as "Gog, and Magog". It's obviously not referring to the literal Gog and Magog. In Revelation 11:7 the great city is "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt". Repeatedly, in Revelation, spiritual entities are given names used for ancient earthly places. You are not recognizing that.

Well the bible identifies it as a literal place that goes by two names:

1. tel megiddo" (the mount of megiddo)
2. Teh valley of Jezreel where the bible says the antichrist marshals his forces to battle Jesus in the battle of the great day of the Almighty.

Revelation 16:12-16
King James Version

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


Maybe you think this is a symbolic gathering of symbolic armies? I don't know.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Not this again

Truth is truth every time you retell it!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

They are the redeemed down through history who were not eternally beguiled by the spirit of this world which controls wicked empires.

But they can't be according to you!

These were resurrected before Jesus resurrection or with Jesus with his resurrection!

They live and reign with Jesus during the 1,000 years and you said that the 1,000 years began with Jesus at His resurrection according to you! And I know you don't love grammar, but these lived and regined with Christ for that 1,000 years you say is not 1,000 years.

And you call the mark reprobation, but still have failed to identify what teh mark is, and who the false prophet is that orders everyone to wear this mark? As you say it is over 2000 years old you must be able to identify the beast during these times and the false prophet and point to when the prophet ordered people to wear the mark!

 

[WPM]

Well the bible identifies it as a literal place that goes by two names:

1. tel megiddo" (the mount of megiddo)
2. Teh valley of Jezreel where the bible says the antichrist marshals his forces to battle Jesus in the battle of the great day of the Almighty.

Revelation 16:12-16
King James Version

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


Maybe you think this is a symbolic gathering of symbolic armies? I don't know.

Revelation employs both unique and familiar symbols, biblical numbers and figurative language to describe the great eternal conflict between good and evil, and frequently advances literal Old Testament symbols, events or locations to impress New Testament truth or ideas on the reader. John repeatedly employs prominent Old Testament imagery to impress glorious spiritual New Testament truths. It is estimated that Revelation contains over 500 references to Old Testament events and stories, yet NOT one single direct quote.

Dr. James Fleming further explains: “Ezekiel, Daniel and Zechariah are Old Testament apocalyptic books that use symbolic language for “that day.” These three books influenced the Apocalypse … Of the four hundred and some verses in the book of Revelation, over two hundred are paraphrases of Old Testament verses.”

Whilst the Old Testament mentions end-times and the second coming; it is often written in veiled and obscure detail, mixed and interspersed with ancient events and other historical detail. It is also presented in types and shadows.

Reapplying these Old Testament types and shadows to the New Testament Church age is often the great difficulty that faces most sincere students of this prophetic book. The prophecy is told and understood through the use of symbols that had common meanings among 1st century Jews.

John uses a lot of literal OT names, events, locations to depict NT spiritual truths. No contradictions. Revelation is saturated in symbolic language. The symbols in the apocalypse serve as effective images and tools that are employed by the Holy Spirit to represent spiritual realities and heavenly truths. Revelation is a spiritual lesson using physical imagery to represent greater spiritual realities and heavenly truths. This includes actual spiritual events.

Mal Couch contends: “Revelation follows: “a systematic, hermeneutical approach . . . Signs, symbols, and figures of speech have literal concepts behind them. Because Revelation is very symbolic (though not totally), there are still literal events embedded behind the figure” (Introductory Thoughts on Allegorical Interpretation and the Book of Revelation - Part II).

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes. The Bible repeatedly and clearly teaches that Jesus will destroy all humanity that is not saved when He comes.

But you and SI have Him destroying all flesh at His return! That would include the living saved!

but your error here is that because you pay little attention to context so often that you miss important clues. Let me explain:

the word all has three basic meanings:

1. Everyone
2. Everyone of a selected group
3. people from many differences ( all sorts of people)

If you throw a party for your child and the wife asks: are all the kids invited yet? You have two choices- every single child on earth, or all the kids from a specific group ( the invite list) and in the case of Rev. 19 we see in the context of the passage that all here means from all manner of people.

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

The birds will eat teh flesh from all sorts of mankind:

1. Kings
2. Captains'
3. mighty men
4. horse riders
5. free men
6.slaves
7.lower class or peons
8. great men ( the upper class)

 

[WPM]

But they can't be according to you!

They live and reign with Jesus during the 1,000 years and you said that the 1,000 years began with Jesus at His resurrection according to you! And I know you don't love grammar, but these lived and regined with Christ for that 1,000 years you say is not 1,000 years.

And you call the mark reprobation, but still have failed to identify what teh mark is, and who the false prophet is that orders everyone to wear this mark? As you say it is over 2000 years old you must be able to identify the beast during these times and the false prophet and point to when the prophet ordered people to wear the mark!

Our Lord’s whole earthly ministry was eschatological in character. Firstly, Jesus ushered in the last (or eschtos) days. Secondly. His assault upon the kingdom of darkness began with His mission on earth, resulting in their wholesale defeat of all the forces of evil. The First Advent sealed their final destiny, the Second Advent will see the final destruction and eternal judgment of the same. Satan has been placed in spiritual chains. The forces of evil have been overthrown. Death and Hades are now defeated. The grave has been conquered. God's people who die go now to be with Jesus. Hades was emptied after the first resurrection. Jesus defeated sin, death, Hades and Satan through his first Advent. The dead in Christ are in glory today. They are reigning with Christ.

The reality is: Christ didn’t just defeat sin and death through His life, death and resurrection, but also Satan and Hades. He took captivity captive. That is why Scripture says that he currently has the keys of Hades and of death. He took authority over them 2000 years ago. Abraham’s bosom is now empty. Heaven is now populated with the souls of the redeemed. We have victory over The consequences of sin and death and Hades because of his victorious earthly ministry. We reign because he reigns. You have to see that we are “in Christ.”

 

[Ronald Nolette]

They are the redeemed down through history who were not eternally beguiled by the spirit of this world which controls wicked empires.

Are you including present day history? and the church age? How can they live and reign with christ for the 1,000 years/non years if they join up after teh 1000 yeaRS/ NON YEARS IS ALREADY IN PROGRESS.

How ABOUT SAINTS NOW. WE MAY BE NEARING THE END OF THIS SO CALLED 1000 YEARS NON YEARS.

Still haven't identified the mark nor th eprophet who orders all to take the mark!

Who are the OT saints who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus.

when were anyone in teh OT times ordered to take a mark?

Revelation 13:11-18
King James Version

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.


Surely if this has been around for over 2,000 years you can identify all th eparts of this passage whether literal or symbolic.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Revelation employs both unique and familiar symbols, biblical numbers and figurative language to describe the great eternal conflict between good and evil, and frequently advances literal Old Testament symbols, events or locations to impress New Testament truth or ideas on the reader. John repeatedly employs prominent Old Testament imagery to impress glorious spiritual New Testament truths. It is estimated that Revelation contains over 500 references to Old Testament events and stories, yet NOT one single direct quote.

And yet a person whp picks up a bible will never know these great "eternal conflicts" from prayerfully reading the bible as an Inpsired book of God!

And to the average gentile at teh end of the first century and on who got a copy of Johns REvelation, only aq miniscule portion would have any OT knowledge. so this would become a useless letter.

Dr. James Fleming further explains: “Ezekiel, Daniel and Zechariah are Old Testament apocalyptic books that use symbolic language for “that day.” These three books influenced the Apocalypse … Of the four hundred and some verses in the book of Revelation, over two hundred are paraphrases of Old Testament verses.”

Gee, and to think I was foolish enough to believe teh bible when it said that teh Spirit and Jesus told John to write the things he saw in a vision. Little did we know before this Fleming character He was just reinterpreting the spiritual truths of OT prophets in a new bible study! Foolish me for accepting the bible instead of Fleming

 

[WPM]

But you and SI have Him destroying all flesh at His return! That would include the living saved!

but your error here is that because you pay little attention to context so often that you miss important clues. Let me explain:

the word all has three basic meanings:

1. Everyone
2. Everyone of a selected group
3. people from many differences ( all sorts of people)

If you throw a party for your child and the wife asks: are all the kids invited yet? You have two choices- every single child on earth, or all the kids from a specific group ( the invite list) and in the case of Rev. 19 we see in the context of the passage that all here means from all manner of people.

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

The birds will eat teh flesh from all sorts of mankind:

1. Kings
2. Captains'
3. mighty men
4. horse riders
5. free men
6.slaves
7.lower class or peons
8. great men ( the upper class)

All those that have not been rescued to meet Christ at His one and only coming and the “marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7) by way of glorification and the catching away are actually destroyed. This is a symbolic depiction of the destruction of all the wicked at the end. Rev 20 starts a new camera view. There are only two peoples in this world - saved and lost. The saved are rescued when Christ comes, the wicked are destroyed. These 2 diverse all-embracing groupings are depicted here as 2 armies. One returns in glory and power with Christ, the other is exposed and destroyed by the presence of His coming.

If you let the Scripture speak for itself you can only conclude that all flesh left behind is decimated. The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat” ...

· The flesh of kings,
· The flesh of captains,
· The flesh of mighty men,
· The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
· The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men” (Rev 19:18). Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” (Rev 19:18) is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

The suffix attached to this group “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to reinforce the point and remove any uncertainty as to the extent of the destruction.

As for your argument re the "remnant," I feel it is moot when you look up the actual Greek word. This party is the loipoy - which literally means those left behind. Left behind from what? The catching away or glorification (“the marriage of the Lamb”). What happens to them? They “were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth” (Rev 19:21).. This couldn't be an clearer, more all-inclusive of all the wicked or more completely destructive in my opinion.

This is indeed the end of the world.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Reapplying these Old Testament types and shadows to the New Testament Church age is often the great difficulty that faces most sincere students of this prophetic book. The prophecy is told and understood through the use of symbols that had common meanings among 1st century Jews.

Among the kabbalistic style Jews of the Day (though they di dnot exist under that name). But the average pharasaic taught Jew believed in a literal physical kingdom as well as the Saduccean taught Jews (though they did not believe in a resurrection)

John uses a lot of literal OT names, events, locations to depict NT spiritual truths. No contradictions. Revelation is saturated in symbolic language. The symbols in the apocalypse serve as effective images and tools that are employed by the Holy Spirit to represent spiritual realities and heavenly truths. Revelation is a spiritual lesson using physical imagery to represent greater spiritual realities and heavenly truths. This includes actual spiritual events.

And we come baCK TO THE AGE OLD PROBLEM AMILS HAVE. WHEN TO SYMBOLIZE AND WHEN TO TAKE LITERALLY. AS YOU REJECT JESUS HAVING A LIMITED PHYSCIAL EARTHLY KINGDOM AS A LITERAL RENDERING OF sCRIPTURE SHOWS- YOU SYMBOLIZE ENORMOUS PASSAGES YOU CANNOT PROVE IS THE CORRECT WAY OF READING THEM.

Mal Couch contends: “Revelation follows: “a systematic, hermeneutical approach . . . Signs, symbols, and figures of speech have literal concepts behind them. Because Revelation is very symbolic (though not totally), there are still literal events embedded behind the figure” (Introductory Thoughts on Allegorical Interpretation and the Book of Revelation - Part II).

And there is the other amillenial problem. You have to have men teach you which is symbolic and which is not. nearly all amils probably di dnot start as amil, unless they were brought up in a covenant theology church. But it is men who define what is literal and symbolic for you. Couch AFAIK did not write one syllable of SCripture.

Teh bible is written for the average believer- njot for the mystical believer who is compelled to read between the lines to get teh "deeper truths" or spiritual truths" of passages.

Now I believe there are three ways a passage is understood.

1. Its literal/grammatical/historical understanding.
2. Its doctrinal understanding (if the passage contributes to teh various doctrines
3. Personal application. What can I learn from the passage to get closer to God.

but to define passages that have no grammar or idiomatic construct as symbolic is disingenuous. Once again If I went through the time and effort, I can get lots of amils who differ in their "spiritual discernment" of what a passage means.

And before you say it- with dispensational premils, the near total reason there is differences is that some try to put specific definitions to things that are as yest physically unrevealed and the timing of the rapture.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Our Lord’s whole earthly ministry was eschatological in character. Firstly, Jesus ushered in the last (or eschtos) days. Secondly. His assault upon the kingdom of darkness began with His mission on earth, resulting in their wholesale defeat of all the forces of evil. The First Advent sealed their final destiny, the Second Advent will see the final destruction and eternal judgment of the same. Satan has been placed in spiritual chains. The forces of evil have been overthrown. Death and Hades are now defeated. The grave has been conquered. God's people who die go now to be with Jesus. Hades was emptied after the first resurrection. Jesus defeated sin, death, Hades and Satan through his first Advent. The dead in Christ are in glory today. They are reigning with Christ.

The reality is: Christ didn’t just defeat sin and death through His life, death and resurrection, but also Satan and Hades. He took captivity captive. That is why Scripture says that he currently has the keys of Hades and of death. He took authority over them 2000 years ago. Abraham’s bosom is now empty. Heaven is now populated with the souls of the redeemed. We have victory over The consequences of sin and death and Hades because of his victorious earthly ministry. We reign because he reigns. You have to see that we are “in Christ.”

Wrong again ! Teh first half of Jesus earthly ministry was to announce to Israel that the Kingdom had arrived. If Israel at that time accepted jesus as Messiah through their leadership, Jesus still would have died, but when He rose, He would have defeated Rome and established the long awaited and promised kingdom to Israel. But Jesus because the leadership blasphemed the Spirit postponed the kingdom offer.

We agree about teh consequences of the second advent.

No death and hell are not defeated. People still die and people still go to Hades/sheol/hell/grave.

Yes He gained the authority, but He has not yet exercised His authority for death and hell are still woking. He will defeat them in the future and that is when Hea takes authority over them. Then He yields the kingdom back to His Father!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

All those that have not been rescued to meet Christ at His one and only coming and the “marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7) by way of glorification and the catching away are actually destroyed. This is a symbolic depiction of the destruction of all the wicked at the end. Rev 20 starts a new camera view. There are only two peoples in this world - saved and lost. The saved are rescued when Christ comes, the wicked are destroyed. These 2 diverse all-embracing groupings are depicted here as 2 armies. One returns in glory and power with Christ, the other is exposed and destroyed by the presence of His coming.

If you let the Scripture speak for itself you can only conclude that all flesh left behind is decimated. The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat” ...

· The flesh of kings,
· The flesh of captains,
· The flesh of mighty men,
· The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
· The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

See now you swap verses back in forth from the iur biblical order to fit your amil agenda.

Teh marriage of Jesus to teh church takes place BEFORE He returns.

I do let Scripture speak for itself! But if I read it as you do - then all teh saved at jesus return are killed by Jesus and the birds.


Remember when Jesus returns, He gathers the elect form teh four corners of the earth. No where in its historical context and grammatic context can this mean gathering the dead from everywhere, but teh living still on earth!

YOu also forget that the antichrist gathers to battle at Armageddon, unless of course Armageddon doesn't mean Armageddon and gathering his armies doesn't really mean gathering his armies in one place like the text says.

 

[WPM]

Among the kabbalistic style Jews of the Day (though they di dnot exist under that name). But the average pharasaic taught Jew believed in a literal physical kingdom as well as the Saduccean taught Jews (though they did not believe in a resurrection)



And we come baCK TO THE AGE OLD PROBLEM AMILS HAVE. WHEN TO SYMBOLIZE AND WHEN TO TAKE LITERALLY. AS YOU REJECT JESUS HAVING A LIMITED PHYSCIAL EARTHLY KINGDOM AS A LITERAL RENDERING OF sCRIPTURE SHOWS- YOU SYMBOLIZE ENORMOUS PASSAGES YOU CANNOT PROVE IS THE CORRECT WAY OF READING THEM.



And there is the other amillenial problem. You have to have men teach you which is symbolic and which is not. nearly all amils probably di dnot start as amil, unless they were brought up in a covenant theology church. But it is men who define what is literal and symbolic for you. Couch AFAIK did not write one syllable of SCripture.

Teh bible is written for the average believer- njot for the mystical believer who is compelled to read between the lines to get teh "deeper truths" or spiritual truths" of passages.

Now I believe there are three ways a passage is understood.

1. Its literal/grammatical/historical understanding.
2. Its doctrinal understanding (if the passage contributes to teh various doctrines
3. Personal application. What can I learn from the passage to get closer to God.

but to define passages that have no grammar or idiomatic construct as symbolic is disingenuous. Once again If I went through the time and effort, I can get lots of amils who differ in their "spiritual discernment" of what a passage means.

And before you say it- with dispensational premils, the near total reason there is differences is that some try to put specific definitions to things that are as yest physically unrevealed and the timing of the rapture.

You cannot even seem to take it upon yourself to recognize that there are many many symbolic passages in the Word of God. You do not even allow that as one of your options. That is ridiculous! After all, the scriptures are saturated in symbolism, visions, dreams, parables and figurative language, from Genesis to Revelation. That shows how biased you are in your Premillennialism.

Each passage, chapter and book should be approached recognizing its proper sense and setting. That may be hyper-literal, highly-symbolic, hyperbolic, parabolic, poetic or apocalyptic. But the context and ambience of the location should assist us in determining the overall thrust of the text. What is more, a good knowledge of other relevant Scripture, should reinforce what the sense and setting is telling us. That helps us in interpreting the Bible as it presents itself.

There is no sense of objective analyze with the Premil approach to Rev 20. They force a literal interpretation upon the most symbolic of language. They seem to have no grasp of apocalyptic language. They also do not seem no understand the importance of corroboration (interpreting Scripture with other Scripture). That is why they have no corroboration. It is unbiblical! It cannot abide the truth!