The answer of hell and its origins

[The Learner]

Taking brother to hospital

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The fire prepared for the wicked is an Everlasting Fire

"Aionios" has variable meanings. When applied to God, it means eternal. When it is used to describe our life, earth, universe, the physical realm, which is temporal, it is translated as ages, lifetimes, generations, epoch. So "everlasting" should be translated age-lasting or age-during. Also, "eternal torment", "eternal destruction", "eternal hell" should be translated as "age-lasting" torment, destruction or hell. Gid is not glorified by sustainable billions of souls in an eternal torture chamber, nor it be just in some cases _ for a brief life of sinning. Imagine a teenager, who is evil to the core, a crimal record a mile long, including murder. Does he deserve never ending torment in fire? Sin must be judged but an infinite punishment? IMHO, NO. God is fair and just and merciful. Just the knowing that you forfeited your soul and what you missed out on is enough ... then a quick burn and it's over.
This confirms my point: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt. 10:28
"All former things will pass away." Our salvation enters into eternity to be with God, not for ages but forward infinitely. Reprobates die and their souls go to Hades (which is the underworld), characterized by darkness, caverns beneath the crust of the earth, where they await judgment to be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Hell) and be destroyed. You cannot destroy something forever, that would imply an indestructible destruction or imperiahable perishing. Paper burns in fire and stops burning within seconds. If physical bodies are thrown into a lava lake, that is 2000 degrees, they will be destroyed. They won't keep burning for ages even ... just moments. About the closest visual example of this would be the scene on the Lord of the Rings where Gollum falls into the lava lake.
They earth will be destroyed as described on 2 Peter 3:10 and everything in it, including the current heavens - the will melt/dissolve in a fervent heat, universal nuclear explosion - if you will. So this Lake of Fire is part of this future event. Then God creates a new heaven and new earth to exist eternally.

Further to this, do you believe people are there now?

In Hades

I dont believe in an immortal soul,

For us, yes. For reprobates, destruction.

 

[face2face]

"Aionios" has variable meanings. When applied to God, it means eternal. When it is used to describe our life, earth, universe, the physical realm, which is temporal, it is translated as ages, lifetimes, generations, epoch. So "everlasting" should be translated age-lasting or age-during. Also, "eternal torment", "eternal destruction", "eternal hell" should be translated as "age-lasting" torment, destruction or hell. Gid is not glorified by sustainable billions of souls in an eternal torture chamber, nor it be just in some cases _ for a brief life of sinning. Imagine a teenager, who is evil to the core, a crimal record a mile long, including murder. Does he deserve never ending torment in fire? Sin must be judged but an infinite punishment? IMHO, NO. God is fair and just and merciful. Just the knowing that you forfeited your soul and what you missed out on is enough ... then a quick burn and it's over.
This confirms my point: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matt. 10:28
"All former things will pass away." Our salvation enters into eternity to be with God, not for ages but forward infinitely. Reprobates die and their souls go to Hades (which is the underworld), characterized by darkness, caverns beneath the crust of the earth, where they await judgment to be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Hell) and be destroyed. You cannot destroy something forever, that would imply an indestructible destruction or imperiahable perishing. Paper burns in fire and stops burning within seconds. If physical bodies are thrown into a lava lake, that is 2000 degrees, they will be destroyed. They won't keep burning for ages even ... just moments. About the closest visual example of this would be the scene on the Lord of the Rings where Gollum falls into the lava lake.
They earth will be destroyed as described on 2 Peter 3:10 and everything in it, including the current heavens - the will melt/dissolve in a fervent heat, universal nuclear explosion - if you will. So this Lake of Fire is part of this future event. Then God creates a new heaven and new earth to exist eternally.

In Hades

For us, yes. For reprobates, destruction.

If you believe man is in possession of an immortal soul you premise is in error. Immortality is put on post judgement. Man dies and returns to dust.

 

[Jack]

Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell, "forever and ever".

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

If you believe man is in possession of an immortal soul you premise is in error. Immortality is put on post judgement. Man dies and returns to dust.

I said the spirit is given life when we are born again, eternal life. When Christians die, they go directly to be with the Lord. "To be absent the body is to be present with the Lord."
So the cleansed soul, being highly integrated with their spirit, passes on without the flesh.
The reprobate souls exist until God destroys them, so they are not immortal.
If you are an SDA or JW, you will not accept this theology. Actually many Christians will not accept my first post, since the traditional view of Hell Iis eternal and mine is not.

 

[face2face]

I said the spirit is given life when we are born again, eternal life. When Christians die, they go directly to be with the Lord. "To be absent the body is to be present with the Lord."
So the cleansed soul, being highly integrated with their spirit, passes on without the flesh.
The reprobate souls exist until God destroys them, so they are not immortal.
If you are an SDA or JW, you will not accept this theology. Actually many Christians will not accept my first post, since the traditional view of Hell Iis eternal and mine is not.

You need 2 Timothy 1:10 and have another look at 2 Corinthians 5 - I know you are way off the mark on that section.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You need 2 Timothy 1:10 and have another look at 2 Corinthians 5 - I know you are way off the mark on that section.

I agree with those verses, my view us in harmony with them.
You claimed you did not believe in an immortal soul and 2 Tim. 1:10 claims Christ gives us an immortality when we are born again. We have entered into an eternal relationship with "in Christ"and so possess an eternal spirit RIGHT NOW.
2 Cor.5:1 also claims we possess this eternal spirit now. Death has no power over us.

 

[face2face]

I agree with those verses, my view us in harmony with them.
You claimed you did not believe in an immortal soul and 2 Tim. 1:10 claims Christ gives us an immortality when we are born again. We have entered into an eternal relationship with "in Christ"and so possess an eternal spirit RIGHT NOW.
2 Cor.5:1 also claims we possess this eternal spirit now. Death has no power over us.

No, immortality is "put on" as per 1 Corinthians 15:53-55.
Christ returns....raises the dead and gathers the elect and changes their mortal bodies to glorious divine bodies.
Your views are against the true Gospel.
To put on something it to have it added - no such thing as inherent immortality!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

No, immortality is "put on" as per 1 Corinthians 15:53-55.
Christ returns....raises the dead and gathers the elect and changes their mortal bodies to glorious divine bodies.
Your views are against the true Gospel.
To put on something it to have it added - no such thing as inherent immortality!

This verse describes our very near future resurrection, when we receive new bodies. Prior to our resurrection, people are born again, we become Christians, which is a spiritual transformation. Do you believe we have a spirit? If not, you have the core understanding of spirituality. Our spirit is not just some force, or our will, it is who we are in Christ, a person who has been cleansed, a being. All that is good about us remains with us. Stephen was stoned to death and said, Lord receive my spirit. Christ's spirit left his body at death BEFORE HIS RESURRECTION. Our spirit is the new creature. When we die our spirit goes to he with thw Lord and so death comes to our physical bodies, not our spirit. So where do you get your theology SDA, JW, Unitarian? Just reveal your church, and I will understand where you get your theology.
You need to seriously study these scriptures:
2 Corinthians 5:17
John 3:3
John 3:6
Colossians 2:12
Colossians 3:10
1 Corinthians 12:13
1 John 4:7
1 Peter 1:23
Ephesians 1:11
Galatians 3:27
Romans 6:4
Acts 1:5

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Ezekiel 18:2-5 ( cxt )
Actually the whole chapter of
Ezekiel 18:1-32 ( cxt )

 

[The Learner]

start at Friday at 7:28 PM#341

 

[face2face]

This verse describes our very near future resurrection, when we receive new bodies. Prior to our resurrection, people are born again, we become Christians, which is a spiritual transformation. Do you believe we have a spirit? If not, you have the core understanding of spirituality. Our spirit is not just some force, or our will, it is who we are in Christ, a person who has been cleansed, a being. All that is good about us remains with us. Stephen was stoned to death and said, Lord receive my spirit. Christ's spirit left his body at death BEFORE HIS RESURRECTION. Our spirit is the new creature. When we die our spirit goes to he with thw Lord and so death comes to our physical bodies, not our spirit. So where do you get your theology SDA, JW, Unitarian? Just reveal your church, and I will understand where you get your theology.
You need to seriously study these scriptures:
2 Corinthians 5:17
John 3:3
John 3:6
Colossians 2:12
Colossians 3:10
1 Corinthians 12:13
1 John 4:7
1 Peter 1:23
Ephesians 1:11
Galatians 3:27
Romans 6:4
Acts 1:5

I went through your list of verses and none of them teach inherent immortality. It's more than likely you are misinterpreting words like spirit and new man etc. Divine nature is put on a person; its a changed body from corruption to incorruptibly.

In relation to the soul the Hebrew and Greek words are Nephesh and Psuche, and express a variety of aspects except immortality - in fact there are over 500 occurrences and not one speaks of an immortal soul! I've gone through them all!

F2F

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I went through your list of verses and none of them teach inherent immortality. It's more than likely you are misinterpreting words like spirit and new man etc. Divine nature is put on a person; its a changed body from corruption to incorruptibly.

In relation to the soul the Hebrew and Greek words are Nephesh and Psuche, and express a variety of aspects except immortality - in fact there are over 500 occurrences and not one speaks of an immortal soul! I've gone through them all!

F2F

I guess you'll just have to experience what exactly happens at death?

 

[face2face]

I guess you'll just have to experience what exactly happens at death?

Yes, as the Bible declares in so many ways - nothing! No thoughts! No remembrance. Ecclesiastes 9:10

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Yes, as the Bible declares in so many ways - nothing! No thoughts! No remembrance. Ecclesiastes 9:10

So I guess when Moses and Elijah appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus _ Who was seen in His glory, they had no consciousness, they weren't alive, just empty headed apparitions?
And then I suppose you don't believe the story that Jesus told of the Rich man in Hades and Lazarus with Abraham (who was communicating to the Rich man from a different location)? I suppose you would pass this off as a parable? Luke 16:23-31 is not symbolic language! These were real locations. Jesus never used names of real people, like Abraham in parable. Why would he describe two locations _ that exist after death _ in detail _ to symbolically mean something else if they did not exist? What moral truth would be gained from something abstract? Jesus' parables were always about common experiences that people could relate to and draw meaning out of.His parables did not use detailed descriptions of fictional, abstract territories.
And then you have 2 Peter 2:4-6. Is Tarturus a real place, described as pits of darkness?
In 2 Peter 2:9, where does he keep the unrighteous _ under punishment _ until the day of judgment? Hades. Tarturus is a separate location from where the souls are.
And what place is Job describing in
Job 10:21-22?
Or in Job 11:7-8 where he describes the depths of God as being deeper than Sheol? Obviously Sheol is deeper than six feet.
And where exactly are the departed spirits trembling in Job 26:5-6?
Deuteronomy 32:22 describes God's punishment with fire that burns to the lowest part of Sheol.
Proverbs 9:18 claims the ungodly dead are guests in the depths of Sheol.
Psalm 9:17 The wicked go there.
Matthew 11:23 Jesus, after his visit, tells us that Capernam will go down to the depths.
In Ezekiel 26:20-21, where is the "Pit" ( the Bottomless Pit, the Abyss)? It describes the pit as being in the lower parts of the earth.

_________<<<<__<<<___
As for Ecc. 9:10, this is true. Knowledge and wisdom are blessings from God. They do not exist in Hades. It is likely that everything that was good, that comes from God, is absent. Even memories of goodness, joy and all the blessings are removed from your conscience, so that all you are aware of is your present torment because of all your sins.

Chew on those for awhile.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

The Bottomless Pit.
One may get hung up on the place called, the "Bottomless Pit". "How could this be ... it doesn't compute". Imagine this: Drill a hole through the earth down to the center and out the other side. Drop a camera inside. When it reaches the center, gravity shifts and as it passes the center it slows down and falls back towards the center. Back and forth it goes until it stops, suspended in the center. Now, if their was a huge cavern in the center, there would be no bottom, it would be surrounded by ceiling in all directions.

 

[face2face]

The Bottomless Pit.
One may get hung up on the place called, the "Bottomless Pit". "How could this be ... it doesn't compute". Imagine this: Drill a hole through the earth down to the center and out the other side. Drop a camera inside. When it reaches the center, gravity shifts and as it passes the center it slows down and falls back towards the center. Back and forth it goes until it stops, suspended in the center. Now, if their was a huge cavern in the center, there would be no bottom, it would be surrounded by ceiling in all directions.

Look, you are not dissimilar to many Christians who think that a plain reading of the Word will suffice.

Bible language is not used in the same way you speak!

The pit of the abyss or "phrear abussos"...elsewhere phrear is rendered "pit" (Luke 14:5), and "well" (John 4:11-12), and obviously relates to the shaft leading to the "abussos" or water below.

The Greek abussos from a intensive, and bussos, "depth" (Eng. bath is derived from this word) is used in Romans 10:7 & Luke 8:31, and frequently in the Septuagint for a bottomless sea.

Are you getting the drift?
Can you see how the idea is being used?
Or do you need further explanation?

I'm guessing you dont understand the context of the verses these words appear in or how they are being used?

Am I right?

(I'll ignore your previous message as it's wasting our time)

F2F

 

[Grailhunter]

Any time the New Testament references hell in any detail at all it is associated with fire and at that, most of the time eternal punishment, not eternal destruction. Another thing I want to point out is that many believe Hell and the Lake of Fire are two different things. The Bible does not say that. The Lake of Fire is most probably a portal to Hell. But the Bible does not say that either. And the destroyed do not weep and gnash their teeth nor can you punish someone that does not exist.

There are few things that the Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in....the Deity of Christ....Hell.....the Cross.....and observing Christian holidays.

Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.

Matthew 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Matthew 8:12 While the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 13:41-42 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:50 And throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

Matthew 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Matthew 24:51 And will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 9:43 And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

Mark 9:45 And if your foot offend you, cut if off: it is better to you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched.

Mark 9:48 where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

Luke 3:17 His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Luke 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

Luke 16:19-31 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

2nd Thessalonians 1:8-9 In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Jude 1:7 Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Revelation 14:10 He also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 20:12-15--- 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

 

[face2face]

The Lake of Fire is most probably a portal to Hell.

 

[face2face]

What has been obvious even to those who hold the belief of a literal burning place is the lack of evidence:

1. Where is its creation story?
2. Who presides over it and where is there creation story?
3. Why is there no mention of this place in the OT?
4. Why have the Greek words been twisted to mean something they were never intended for?
5. Where in the Bible is a section dedicated to explaining this place...rather than hanging so much inferred meaning on a single word?

So many questions with those who believe unable to provide their understanding.

Go back through the thread and see how many times a person has dumped a bunch of Scripture with absolutely zero explanation to its meaning. Why have Christians lost the ability to search, question and openly inquire the Word without first spewing preconceived notions all over it?

It won't do!

F2F