Satan permitted by God to test mankind in the Garden of Eden / NHNE?

[Truth7t7]

That's not true, Truth! If you notice in 2 Peter 3:9, Peter is speaking of the Lord's promise.

"One day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" is concerning His promises.

In other words, His promise may take a thousand years to fulfill, but that promise is just as sure to come about as if it were one day.

This has been misunderstood and used against the Lord by those who desire the Scripture to work toward their own understanding and not "Thus saith the Lord."

It is a rebellion against the truth of God's word! It is apostasy!

We Disagree

One day is a thousand years is explaining that there isn't literal time in the Lord's eternal spirutual, it's that simple

 

[Charlie24]

We Disagree

One day is a thousand years is explaining that there isn't literal time in the Lord's eternal spirutual, it's that simple

We certainly do disagree! Vs. 9 makes it clear what Peter is speaking of, it may seem that God is delaying the fulfillment of His promises, but it is for the purpose as Peter told us, vs. 9, "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

This is what Peter is referring to with the thousand years analogy.

Of course you believe in a spiritual thousand years or you would not try and force this untruth on the unknowing.

 

[ewq1938]

that the NHNE does not follow after the millennium, but the millennium commences with the NHNE, and the millennium is literal.

Rev 20-21 proves that wrong. The Mill ends, satan is released, a failed attack on Jerusalem, satan is cast into LOF, the unsaved dead are judged and cast into LOF, then the NHNE begins.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

In the NHNE there is no death but in your version, death still happens in the NHNE.

 

[ewq1938]

We Disagree

One day is a thousand years is explaining that there isn't literal time in the Lord's eternal spirutual, it's that simple

No, there is literal time. It's just experienced differently. A long period of time feels shorter. That isn't "no time" like you have wrongly interpreted it.

 

[jeffweeder]

Maybe. How long is a day when the only time that exists in the universe is this moment because the future doesn't exist this moment and neither does the past (because nothing ever ages and dies so as to provide a measuring rod to measure "time" with?)

Well we do have ..."there was evening and morning" to help us understand.
Adam and eve not attempting to multiply for a thousand years is an untenable notion.
If I was Adam I probably wouldn't have waited until the next day to obey Gods command to multiply. 

 

[Zao is life]

In the NHNE there is no death but in your version, death still happens in the NHNE.

Then there was no death in the Garden of Eden either.

In the NHNE there is no death but in your version, death still happens in the NHNE.

2nd death. At the close of a thousand years into the NHNE, and a thousand years is as a day for the Lord.

 

[Zao is life]

Good point. I do think that the rewards of the saints in the present age is different than the mortal population in the Millennial Age. Glorified Christians enter into a period of rule over the Millennial earth, and they immediately experience the rewards of glorification. That doesn't mean the mortal world in the Millennial Age will experience the rewards of glorification because they will not yet be glorified.

So the glorified Church does enter into a period where they "thirst no more." And that begins immediately in the Millennial Age, though it doesn't apply to the mortal world who live in the Millennial Age. It will be free of international warfare, but it will not be free of hunger for those who remain mortal.

The mortal population who prove to be saints in the Millennial era will not experience the rewards of the New Jerusalem until it actually comes down from heaven at the end of the Millennial Period. The already-glorified saints will have already gone to heaven to experience it. But those who are raised up in the 2nd resurrection will experience it when it comes down from heaven.

There won't be any mortals if the NHNE commences at the same time as its first thousand years.

One thing I cannot understand is the premil insistence that Revelation 20:12-15 is referring to another resurrection, when it says the dead (nekros) will be delivered up by death and hades. Revelation 20:4-6 uses the word zao (living, alive in a body) and anastasis (the resurrection) in reference to those who had been beheaded - but both words remain entirely absent when talking about the judgment of the dead.

Sorry, that's unimaginable for me. Glorified saints have determined their eternal destiny. It's baked into God's plan. We don't make the rules--God does. And He said that those who accept him and are glorified have no more cause for sin, and have eternal life. In other words, it won't ever change.

Is it unimaginable too that Adam, who was alive spiritually and living in paradise, and knew exactly what God had said, and knew also that the words "you shall NOT surely die" was an insult to God because it was indirectly calling God a liar (aside from assigning an ulterior motive to God for having said so when He gave the command), chose to partake of the forbidden fruit because of the sales pitch about what it (supposedly) offered (but did not offer)?

Is it unimaginable that the author of Hebrews warns against apostasy, and Jesus warns that the branch that does not abide in the Vine is cast forth and is withered?

Why the difference after the resurrection, and why is it that only those who had remained faithful when tested and been beheaded are told that the 2nd death has no power over them (OSAS is applicable to them), but the text is silent about all the other saints who died in Christ who will also be resurrected when Christ returns? No doubt the apostles and all who have ever been martyred for their testimony have the same promise. But the same is not said for the rest of us - unless and until (like those in Revelation 12:4-6), we are given the choice Adam was given.

Thanks, it was complex, so it did take some explaining. I appreciate it. I can see what verses you were trying to make work.

No problem.

As for my thoughts about Israel, I believe that from the moment Adam sinned, the blood of Christ became necessary for anyone to be restored to God, and before and since Christ came, faith in the Word of God has always been the way we receive God's grace.

I believe Israel is the congregation of the elect, a.k.a "church" - so it can be said that "the church" (congregation of the elect) was in the wilderness and led into the promised land, and the majority of the church was broken off when Christ had died and had risen, but the Gentiles who believe are grafted in among the remnant - and the Northern tribes are collectively called "Ephraim" many times in prophetic scripture, but they ceased being a nation. Jacob told Joseph in Genesis 48:19 that the seed of Ephraim wold become the fullness of the Gentiles - Hebrew 'mlo (fullness) and goy - translated into English as "a multitude of nations".

Those of "Ephraim" who were exiled from the Northern kingdom in 725 BC became scattered among the nations and their descendants intermarried with Gentiles - and that is how a nation that ceased being a nation before God became called "the sons of the living God". In its context the prophecy in Hosea is talking only about the 10 Northern tribes yet in Romans 9 Paul includes Gentiles in its fulfillment.

The word IF is the operative word in Romans 11:23. God has already taken away their sins (Romans 11:27), but many reject the blood of Christ.

God had no more mercy on Ephraim but then had mercy, even so IF the Jews do not continue in unbelief God will have mercy on them because of the mercy He had on Ephraim. They are still loved for the sake of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but only IF they repent of their unbelief will they be grafted in again.

.. but (typology) Joseph forgave his brothers for what they had done to him once their words and actions showed him they had repented of what they had done to him (though they still did not recognize him). He first revealed to them it was him, and forgave them. They were dismayed in his presence (..they shall look on Me whom they have pierced). After this he led them all to the idyllic land of goshen where they lived with him during a time of prolonged peace and prosperity - until another Pharaoh arose who had not known Joseph. (Typology) the millennium will end.

 

[Zao is life]

Well we do have ..."there was evening and morning" to help us understand.
Adam and eve not attempting to multiply for a thousand years is an untenable notion.
If I was Adam I probably wouldn't have waited until the next day to obey Gods command to multiply. 

10 out of 10 for making me laugh. But the philosophy of all this is in another dimension, so I'm getting out of my space ship and back into my office

 

[ewq1938]

Then there was no death in the Garden of Eden either.

You are avoiding the discussion.

2nd death. At the close of a thousand years into the NHNE, and a thousand years is as a day for the Lord.

If the NHNE happens when the Mill starts then death still exists which cannot be true because no death is possible when the NHNE occurs. I have proven your theory wrong. The NHNE happens when Rev says it does, after the end of the GWTJ, not at the second coming or Mill.

 

[Randy Kluth]

There won't be any mortals if the NHNE commences at the same time as its first thousand years.

I don't believe the NHNE commences at the beginning of the thousand years. But I don't know why there can't be mortals experiencing the *age of the Millennium* at the same time glorified saints experience the *glories of heaven* during the same time period?

One thing I cannot understand is the premil insistence that Revelation 20:12-15 is referring to another resurrection, when it says the dead (nekros) will be delivered up by death and hades. Revelation 20:4-6 uses the word zao (living, alive in a body) and anastasis (the resurrection) in reference to those who had been beheaded - but both words remain entirely absent when talking about the judgment of the dead.

I don't honestly see any problem with the description or the words? Call it artistic license.

Is it unimaginable too that Adam, who was alive spiritually and living in paradise, and knew exactly what God had said, and knew also that the words "you shall NOT surely die" was an insult to God because it was indirectly calling God a liar (aside from assigning an ulterior motive to God for having said so when He gave the command), chose to partake of the forbidden fruit because of the sales pitch about what it (supposedly) offered (but did not offer)?

So, quite simply, you'd rather question the biblical account rather than accept it as a reasonable explanation for the world as it is?

Why the difference after the resurrection, and why is it that only those who had remained faithful when tested and been beheaded are told that the 2nd death has no power over them (OSAS is applicable to them), but the text is silent about all the other saints who died in Christ who will also be resurrected when Christ returns? No doubt the apostles and all who have ever been martyred for their testimony have the same promise. But the same is not said for the rest of us - unless and until (like those in Revelation 12:4-6), we are given the choice Adam was given.

Makes perfect sense to me. This account is designed to encourage confidence in case martyrdom is necessary. It is not an historical account, but an encouragement with respect to the future. It is not an accountant's spreadsheet of people and statistics, and what happened to them. It is a narrative with a particular focus on those who prevail against the Beast.

I believe Israel is the congregation of the elect, a.k.a "church" - so it can be said that "the church" (congregation of the elect) was in the wilderness and led into the promised land, and the majority of the church was broken off when Christ had died and had risen, but the Gentiles who believe are grafted in among the remnant - and the Northern tribes are collectively called "Ephraim" many times in prophetic scripture, but they ceased being a nation. Jacob told Joseph in Genesis 48:19 that the seed of Ephraim wold become the fullness of the Gentiles - Hebrew 'mlo (fullness) and goy - translated into English as "a multitude of nations".

So you believe in Replacement Theology--not in the literal nation of Israel?
Our views are too far apart.

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't believe the NHNE commences at the beginning of the thousand years. But I don't know why there can't be mortals experiencing the *age of the Millennium* at the same time glorified saints experience the *glories of heaven* during the same time period?



I don't honestly see any problem with the description or the words? Call it artistic license.



So, quite simply, you'd rather question the biblical account rather than accept it as a reasonable explanation for the world as it is?



Makes perfect sense to me. This account is designed to encourage confidence in case martyrdom is necessary. It is not an historical account, but an encouragement with respect to the future. It is not an accountant's spreadsheet of people and statistics, and what happened to them. It is a narrative with a particular focus on those who prevail against the Beast.



So you believe in Replacement Theology--not in the literal nation of Israel?
Our views are too far apart.

No such thing a replacement theology, it is a man made created phrase by those within Dispensationalism, that falsely charges any person who would disagree with their false Zionist teachings in (Dual Covenant Theology) in two peoples of God, Jew-Church

 

[Truth7t7]

But I don't know why there can't be mortals experiencing the *age of the Millennium* at the same time glorified saints experience the *glories of heaven* during the same time period?

Randy's Zionist fairy tales and dreams found no place in scripture

There won't be a Millennium on this earth, Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

The saints receive the glorified body at the second coming, when the living Church is caught up, and the resurrection of all takes place on (The Last Day)

 

[ewq1938]

There won't be a Millennium on this earth, Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

That's not what the bible says. Rev 20 promises a Mill after the second coming.

 

[Truth7t7]

That's not what the bible says. Rev 20 promises a Mill after the second coming.

Revelation 20 promises no such thing, there is no Kingdom or Mortal humans seen in Revelation 20:1-6, it's a man made fairy tale, Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy are more of a reality than a Millennial Kingdom on this earth "The Truth"!

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 20 promises no such thing

It does. Here it is:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The Defeat of Satan
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 

[Zao is life]

I have proven your theory wrong. The NHNE happens when Rev says it does, after the end of the GWTJ, not at the second coming or Mill.

Well, in your mind you have proven my theory wrong. The second sentence is s statement about a long held belief system. Like saying, "I have proven your theory wrong. Satan is bound now. There will be no thousand years following the return of Christ."

You are avoiding the discussion.

No, I was just answering what you said as quickly and briefly as possible without repeating anything I've already said so that you don't think I'm repeating myself

If the NHNE happens when the Mill starts then death still exists which cannot be true because no death is possible when the NHNE occurs.

If it is not possible for the 2nd death to take place a thousand years into the NHNE, then it was not possible for Adam to have died either - but if it was possible for Adam to have died, though he had until then been living forever in the Garden of Eden, then it's possible for the sons of Adam who are living forever in the NHNE to die the 2nd death if they follow the serpent's message, the way Adam had done.

Not until Satan has been destroyed in the lake of fire will there be "no 2nd temptation and testing, and no 2nd death. For those who fall, there will be no 2nd sacrifice for the sins of man. There will be no 2nd resurrection of Christ, the last Adam - and there will be no 2nd resurrection from the 2nd death.

The first time we read that there will be no more curse is in Revelation 22:3:

Revelation 22
1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life - water as clear as crystal - pouring out from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
2 flowing down the middle of the city's main street. On each side of the river is the tree of life producing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month of the year. Its leaves are for the healing of the nations.
3 And there will no longer be any curse, and the throne of God and the Lamb will be in the city. His servants will worship him.

Notice the mention of the tree of life:

Genesis 3
22 And the LORD God said, "Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil, he must not be allowed to stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
23 So the LORD God expelled him from the orchard in Eden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken.
24 When he drove the man out, he placed on the eastern side of the orchard in Eden angelic sentries who used the flame of a whirling sword to guard the way to the tree of life.

Too many scriptures link the NHNE to what follows immediately after the coming of Christ in judgment.

 

[Zao is life]

I don't believe the NHNE commences at the beginning of the thousand years. But I don't know why there can't be mortals experiencing the *age of the Millennium* at the same time glorified saints experience the *glories of heaven* during the same time period?

The rewards given to those who came out from great tribulation are the same as the rewards given in the NHNE.

I believe the Revelation is pointing to one and the same condition / state in creation that will come into being at the same "time" in both Revelation 7:15-17 and Revelation Chapter 21, regardless of what Premils say about it.

I think Amils would probably agree - so I'm not alone, except that Amils don't believe that the millennium commences at the same time, but is currently underway, so I don't agree with Amils either.

I don't honestly see any problem with the description or the words? Call it artistic license.

That's OK. Personally I won't and don't add anything - whether "artistic license" or anything else - to the meaning of Revelation 20:12-15, but granted, all premils do, and probably most amils too (who will see it as the resurrection of the unjust at the close of this "present" millennium).

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Is it unimaginable too that Adam, who was alive spiritually and living in paradise, and knew exactly what God had said, and knew also that the words "you shall NOT surely die" was an insult to God because it was indirectly calling God a liar (aside from assigning an ulterior motive to God for having said so when He gave the command), chose to partake of the forbidden fruit because of the sales pitch about what it (supposedly) offered (but did not offer)?

So, quite simply, you'd rather question the biblical account rather than accept it as a reasonable explanation for the world as it is?

That's not what I said. The question "Is it unimaginable too?" implies a negative answer - because of course I do believe scripture - and the scripture does teach us that Adam, who was alive spiritually and living forever in the Garden of Eden, and knew exactly what God had said, and knew also that the words "you shall NOT surely die" was an insult to God because it was indirectly calling God a liar (aside from assigning an ulterior motive to God for having said so when He gave the command), chose to partake of the forbidden fruit because of the sales pitch about what it (supposedly) offered (but did not offer).

So as in the Garden of Eden before the fall which resulted in Adam's death, so in the NHNE before the Great White Throne Judgment and the 2nd death.

If the first was possible, then the second is possible too.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Why the difference after the resurrection, and why is it that only those who had remained faithful when tested and been beheaded are told that the 2nd death has no power over them (OSAS is applicable to them), but the text is silent about all the other saints who died in Christ who will also be resurrected when Christ returns? No doubt the apostles and all who have ever been martyred for their testimony have the same promise. But the same is not said for the rest of us - unless and until (like those in Revelation 12:4-6), we are given the choice Adam was given.

Makes perfect sense to me. This account is designed to encourage confidence in case martyrdom is necessary. It is not an historical account, but an encouragement with respect to the future. It is not an accountant's spreadsheet of people and statistics, and what happened to them. It is a narrative with a particular focus on those who prevail against the Beast.

Fair enough, that's what you believe, but even so, only those who prevail against the beast - any government - whether past, present or future - are being mentioned in those verses, and promised that the 2nd death will have no power over them.

So you believe in Replacement Theology--not in the literal nation of Israel?
Our views are too far apart.

The term "Replacement Theology" is a logical fallacy, IMO. The literal nation of Israel has always been the citizens, the people - in the New Testament bought by the blood of Christ - those who together form a new tabernacle.

Just because the old tabernacle represents the old law, which was the shadow of the new law (the new law being the fruit of the Spirit / Vine fulfilling the law through faith in Christ), does not mean Israel has become divided into "literal Israel" on the one hand, and the body of Christ / the church on the other.

Hebrews 7
12 For when the priesthood changes, a change in the law must come as well.

The (total and utter) fallacy in the words "Replacement Theology" exists in the fact that the change in the law and the temple system did not separate "literal Israel" (as you call it) into two parts. Those outside of Christ are broken off - and the remnant was still literal Israel. Literal Israel did not go away. Those who are not in Christ may believe they are Israel because they have Abraham for their father - but Christ, and John the Baptist before Him, and Paul all corrected them.

Those who falsely spout a "literal Israel" existing outside of Christ should also heed the correction of John the Baptist, of Christ, and of the apostle Paul.

God chose to extend His New covenant with the house of Israel ("Ephraim") and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31) to the Gentiles - the seed of "Ephraim" became the fullness of the Gentiles.

No Jew or Gentile who is not in Christ is a citizen of Israel. "Literal Israel" = the called out ones, and in the New Covenant, that = the temple, and the temple = the church.

 

[Zao is life]

The saints receive the glorified body at the second coming, when the living Church is caught up, and the resurrection of all takes place on (The Last Day)

You're telling premils what they already believe in order to disprove what premils believe even though amils believe the same thing.

Hope what you say is written in the KJV!

 

[Zao is life]

Except for Rev 20-21 where John sees the NHNE come after the GWTJ and the LOF judgment is over. This proves the NHNE comes long after the second coming.

No it doesn't. There are no chapter or verse divisions in the Revelation. The chapter divisions in the New Testament (including the book of Revelation) were only inserted in the year 1227 A.D: Before this, the Revelation was just one long continuous book without any verses or chapter divisions. Revelation Chapters 20-21 are talking about one and the same state / condition.

The longer you remain with the false assumption that Revelation 20 and 21 are not talking about the same (everlasting) period, the longer you will hang onto the false idea that the NHNE follows the GWT.

Adam was alive and living forever and Satan was permitted to tempt and test Adam in the Garden of Eden. It caused Adam's death.

This proves that God, who is sovereign and will know whether all the sons of Adam will be faithful and choose life, may allow Satan to do the same with the sons of Adam who have been made the sons of God and have been resurrected and living in the NHNE.

Only once Satan has been destroyed in the LOF will there never again be another test.

But the sons of God who had already been tested and overcame are promised that the 2nd death will have no power over them (OSAS), AND THEY will reign with Christ a thousand years.

Question: Reign over whom? Answer: Over all the other resurrected sons of God who had not yet been tested the way Adam had been, and the way all the martyrs who have ever been tested and remained faithful had been:

Revelation 6
9 Now when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been violently killed because of the word of God and because of the testimony they had given.
10 They cried out with a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Master, holy and true, before you judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?"
11 Each of them was given a long white robe and they were told to rest for a little longer, until the full number was reached of both their fellow servants and their brothers who were going to be killed just as they had been.

So if we already rebel against the idea that it might be us who will be ruled over by those who have already been tested through martyrdom and overcame, and are reigning with Christ over us, then how do we know we won't be rebelling against it in the NHNE at the close of the millennium?

 

[Truth7t7]

It does. Here it is:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The Defeat of Satan
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Not one word you post shows a Kingdom on this Earth with Mortal Humans present "Fact"