ewq1938
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Satan permitted by God to test mankind in the Garden of Eden / NHNE?
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Wrangler
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I don't understand why you are questioning the function of time and capability.
Revelation 21
7 He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
2 And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her Husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.
4 And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away.
No more death for those in New Jerusalem. But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
The NHNE and revelation 20 are the same. When is the first time in the Revelation that you read the words, "And there will no longer be any curse"?
ewq1938
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No, they aren't. Death exists all through Rev 20 but there is no death at all in Rev 21's NHNE.
Psalm 75
7 But God is the judge; He puts down one and sets up another.
8 For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is fully mixed; and He pours out from it; but the dregs of it, all the wicked of the earth shall drain its dregs and drink.
2 When I take the appointed time, I will judge uprightly.
3 The earth and all its people are melting away; I hold up its pillars. Selah.
According to some people, God's prophets never use metaphor. Never.
Throughout the New Testament (and without even one exception), the Greek word érgon refers to works - to the works of God / Christ, or of man, or of the devil - and there is a very long list of verses using the word - by far the majority of them being a reference to the works of men.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away [parérchomai] with a rushing noise, and the elements [stoicheîon] will melt with fervent heat. And the earth and the works [érgon] in it will be burned up.
The earth doesn't have works. Rocks do not have works.
The word stoicheîon only refers to the rudiments of this world - never to the physical elements of the earth: Galatians 4:3; Galatians 4:9; Colossians 2:8; Colossians 2:20; Hebrews 5:12.
In every verse it's found, the word parérchomai is used interchangeably for "passing by", "passing closeby", and "coming near". For example:
Luke 18:37:
And they told him, that Jesus of Nazareth passeth [parérchomai] by.
It's the rudiments of this world and the works of Satan and of men that will be burned up when Christ returns - NOT the physical, chemical elements.
1 Corinthians 3
13 each one's work [érgon] shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is.
Anyway, Truth7t7, thank you for quoting scripture that proves the opposite of what you say.
Metaphor:
Psalm 75
7 But God is the judge; He puts down one and sets up another.
8 For in the hand of the LORD there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is fully mixed; and He pours out from it; but the dregs of it, all the wicked of the earth shall drain its dregs and drink.
2 When I take the appointed time, I will judge uprightly.
3 The earth and all its people are melting away; I hold up its pillars. Selah.
The rudiments of this world and the works of men literally burning up when Christ comes near:
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away [parérchomai] with a rushing noise, and the elements [stoicheîon] will melt with fervent heat. And the earth and the works [érgon] in it will be burned up.
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There is no death in Revelation 21 for those in New Jerusalem - "But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
24 And the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.
25 And its gates may not be shut at all by day, for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no way enter into it anything that defiles, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.
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Truth7t7
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Your living in denial of the scripture before your eyes, you have a predetermined bias to maintain the false teaching of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth
Jesus Christ returns in fire and final judgement, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)
Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Nope. You're living in denial of scripture. It's the rudiments of this world and the works of men literally being burned up by the return of Christ.
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Truth7t7
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Was Sodom and Gomorrah "Literally" burned in history as described in scripture below?
Genesis 19:24KJV
24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;
Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
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I see which logical fallacy you are under now. It goes like this: "If Sodom and Gomorrah's fire and brimstone was literal (because their destruction certainly was literal), then it means that the Bible doesn't use metaphor. So the woman John saw in Revelation 12 was a literal woman, and she was literally wearing the actual sun. The actual moon was literally under her feet. And twelve literal stars were like the diamonds in her crown."
Gotcha.
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Show us Scripture to support these claims? You have a habit of doing this. You make these claims but have no actual Scripture to support them.
Randy Kluth
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Quit the commentary--it's false. Show some restraint, and stick to the issues please. I provide Scriptural proofs for *everything* I say, though I don't feel the need to do that in every post, since most here know the relevant Scriptures already.
I'm shocked you don't know the answer to this already! You don't know that God promised political deliverance from Israel's enemies if they kept the Law? Amazing! Read the curses announced on Mt. Ebal.
Not so. If you knew, you would happily submit. That is because you have nothing that teaches what you attribute to Revelation 20. You have to foist it upon the inspired text.
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Randy Kluth
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Yeah, but they broke the covenant that those promises were based on, and so God promised a new covenant which would not be like that covenant that He had made with them in the days he took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt.
They made it obvious that they were not capable of keeping the covenant of which Moses was the mediator, so Christ came as the mediator of the new and infinitely better covenant, which is the only eternal covenant.
Isaiah 24:5
"And the land is defiled under its people; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, and have broken the everlasting (‛ôlâm) covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31-32
"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah,
not according to the covenant that I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which covenant of Mine they broke, although I was a husband to them, says the LORD.
It's a tragedy and against Christ and the gospel to teach people that the first covenant has any effect whatsoever.
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Randy Kluth
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Yes, I hear this all the time, which is actually a complete misread of what Paul's theology was on this. He set out to show that the purpose of the Law was to bring righteousness and also to show that since sin was mixed in with it, it lacked the ability to obtain eternal life. This was the lesson going back as far as the Garden of Eden. A single sin kept mankind away from the Tree of life, requiring that grace be extended beyond the Law to dispense eternal life to mankind.
So the Law of Moses was not just given to Israel to frustrate them, to show them they could not attain to eternal life. Much more than that, it was an instrument of righteousness to show that God's intention was to provide righteousness in the interim until he could supply grace through His Son Jesus.
So many today erringly think the Law was designed to frustrate man, to make him think he cannot do any good, whereas the reality is, it was designed to show that despite the fact we could do good we needed the grace of Jesus to enable us to obtain eternal life. Paul went to lengths to show that the Law was good, and brought righteousness. He only intended to show that the Law is insufficient if it is not based on the grace of Jesus.
The Law was in a very real sense a forerunner of Jesus, showing both his righteousness and his grace. It's just that apart from Jesus mankind could not in themselves provide the grace they needed for redemption from sin. Jesus came to fulfill the righteousness of the Law for us so that we can trust in him for his gift of righteousness to us, coupled with the grace and mercy that goes with it.
The obedience of Israel that kept them in the blessings of God were perfectly functional, despite the fact it did not yet lead to eternal life. It was a preliminary form of righteousness, keeping them in good standing with God until Jesus could come and provide atonement for their sins. In abiding in the righteousness of the Law they were actually putting their faith in the mercy of God who would provide in Jesus the atonement that was required to go along with it.
The political deliverance of Israel under the Law shows God's kindness towards nations and societies when they work together to please God. It was not a system designed to frustrate nations, committing them to an inability to do right. They could most certainly do right, which is precisely what God wanted.
.. all sorts of excuses to hang onto the law and to "political Israel". And contradicting the Word of God. Same trick since the Garden of Eden, I agree.
So while we're in Genesis, the very first promise God made Abraham was that he would become the father of a multitude of goy. The many nations in Christ, the seed of Abraham and seed promised in Genesis 3:15 in whom all the nations and families of the earth would be blessed.
Abraham's seed fulfill (present, ongoing tense) the law by abiding in Him (Christ) through faith in Him and in HIS complete fulfillment of the law and the commandments, in order that the fruit of the Vine / Spirit which fulfills all the law and commandments, be produced in them - to believe on the name of Jesus and to love one another fulfills all the law and commandments - that law which is a shadow of Christ and of the fruit of His Spirit that fulfills the law.
That is the law God writes on the hearts of those who believe the gospel (Jeremiah 31:33) - and HE writes it on the heart, replacing your "I will".
You won't, because you can't.
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Randy Kluth
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It's astonishing how few here can carry on a discussion without getting angry, vindictive, or insulting. We have a mild disagreement, and I thought perhaps I could help you or others in an area where I struggled for many years.
I was constantly told the Law was a mechanism to fool people, much as you just explained--a "trick." It wasn't a trick. God gave the Law for a good reason--not to fool people.
We simply misunderstand Paul, just as Peter said that it's easy to misunderstand Paul. Paul is complicated. He is discussing heady things. It's worth our while to pursue Paul's theology because I think there is a blessing for those who persist.
I agree with your sense that the commandments of Jesus fulfill all the Law--we don't need to follow the Law, which was strictly for OT Israel. We don't need sacrifices anymore. We don't need Sabbaths. We don't need Jewish festivals. We don't need to eat kosher foods. And we don't need a Levitical or Aaronic priesthood.
All we need is the Spirit of Christ and his gift of righteousness. When we receive that and choose to live by it, we become born again and are viewed as having received eternal life. I think we agree on this?
The commandments under the Law represent the righteousness of Christ, albeit in a preliminary covenant. Commandments like "don't steal" remain valid under the covenant of Christ. It's just a new covenant in which all of the extracurricular material is no longer necessary, temple, priesthood, and sacrifices. We do not stop needing to be obedient to the laws of God! If you think so you're woefully bereft of solid teaching!
Some Christians believe that we can't do anything, that it's a kind of miracle from Christ that we do any good at all. Somehow our faith miraculously translates into a form of righteousness which is not described. It is somehow "Christ in us" without us having anything to do with it except for having faith.
This is poor theology, though it is a very popular sentiment. Sadly, it leaves all human responsibility outside the door with no reason to do anything but have faith.
This is so vague that the Christian life is reduced to simply believing things, which is purely an intellectual exercise, and not necessarily having anything to do with spiritual things. As we are told, the devils believe and tremble.
Some here believe that the human will is so tainted that it can't even accept Christ, let alone do anything righteous. But Jesus said he loved the Jewish man who kept all the commandments of God, yet couldn't bring himself to give his all to Christ.
God is happy when people choose to do good. He is most happy, however, when we choose to live in fellowship with him so that we always choose for the good. He is the good. When we choose to live for him, we are choosing to live in righteousness, which is tantamount to being born again.
We are no longer choosing to do good some of the time, and choosing to pick and choose when we want to do good as if our life is in our own hands, and not in God's hands. Living autonomously and separate from God is not choosing to do good all the time such as God wishes for our salvation. We must give up our independence, and cast our cares on the Lord, because he cares for us.
Truth7t7
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Yes the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was literal, just as the future destruction will be when the Lord is revealed at his second coming as seen in Luke 17:29-30 below, your living in denial of this biblical truth
Genesis 19:24KJV
24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;
Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Spiritual Israelite
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2 Peter 3:10-12 is talking about the burning up of the heavens, elements and the earth and then verse 13 refers to the result of that renewal by fire which will be the new heavens and new earth.
2 Peter 3:13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
Peter indicated that in keeping with his promise (the promise of His second coming - 2 Peter 3:4) we are looking forward to a new heaven and new earth. That means the new heavens and new earth are the fulfillment of the promise of His second coming. So, Peter said we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth in fulfillment of His second coming. So, why are you not looking forward to that in fulfillment of His second coming?
You have the new heaven and new earth not being ushered in until 1000+ years after His second coming which does not line up with what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:13. You are looking forward to an empty earth in keeping with the promise of His second coming, but Peter said we should be looking forward to the new heaven and new earth, where righteousness dwells, instead.
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