Calculating the Rapture? 7 Factors to Consider

[Ronald Nolette]

Ummmmmmm, been a preacher for 30 plus years sir. Let me ask you a question, where do you guys come up with "Church authority" anyway? Just wondering. God called Peter, Paul, and many other men, most who come out of the "great churches" never did very much for the gospel, they are all too wrapped up in church politics, like the RCC and the Church of England. I guess the holy spirit needs to ask permission now to call men to God from some church authority? You realize how odd that sounds right?

Try Ephesians, Timothy and Titus and Matthew.

Jesus said He would build HIs church and said that He gave Apostles, prophets, evangelists pastors and teachers for the perfecting of the saints (church). The church has authority to disfellowship people ala Matt. 18 etc. Everyone of Pauls Epistles (except the
pastoral ones) were to local churches!

The church is not a denomination. And as we are living in the age of apostasy, we see the fulfilment of the kingdom parable where it is compared to a great mustard tree where all sorts of birds nest in it.

The church gets its authority from the word! If one doesn't submit to a bona fide local pastor- He is outside of the asuthority of God. We have no lone rangers.

Here is what I find very concerning with some guys. When they can't answer a question posed or lose a debate, they always seem to find a way to obfuscate. The point I made to your rather absurd reply was I understand prophecy and how it works because that has been my calling of 37 years. And I do not need your permission for that calling, I hope.

No you do not need my permission! I am not an ordained minister. I am just a teacher confirmed by the two churches I have attended in my Christian life.

Even Paul confirmed his calling with the church in Jerusalem. As He said to insure He was not running in vain.

For you to not submit to the authority of a local pastor teacher, is frankly rebellion, unless you are a pastor.

Even what I do here was approved by my pastors! Not what I write, but that I am on the threads discussing and debating. I get the covering of Gods authority. It is safe

WRONG, the Beast suffers a Mortal Wound. The Church delivered that blow, the gates of hell shall not prevail against my church Jesus told Peter. We turned Rome from a Beast into a conveyor belt for the Gospel of Jesus Christ where the Gospel got put forth for over a 1000 years from the Latin Vulgate before the English translations ever came into being. Apollyon got placed in the bottomless pit, thus Apollyon was..........IS NOT........yet is. Israel never RULED over the Gentiles at anytime period, tbh. So, this is only about the 7 Headed Beast and their rule over the Mediterranean Sea Region whilst Israel is in the land, the bible is about Israel. Israel was not in the land nigh 2000 years. So, you take all of these illogical conclusions, and put them out there without thinking them through, this sir is NOT how prophecy works, you need to be 1000 percent sure before you speak unless you are guessing and say so.

So you believe Roman Catholicism was a conveyor for th egospel? WOW! Nothing could be further from the truth! It was death for th ecommon people to read the bible under the reign of the RCC. The reign of thre RCC brough tabout teh dark ages of Europe and great heresy!

The rest is just conjecture on your part about where teh beast ruled.

I have studied under a Messianic Jew who is a native hEBREW SPEAKER. HE KNOWS MORE ABOUT HEBREW THAN PROBABLY ALL ON THIS THREAD COMBINED!

the besasts of teh sea are called four kings in Hebrew and English.

What expertise in language do you present to counter otherwise. I would recommend the book "Footsteps of the Messiah" by Arnold Fruchtenbaum.

He3 holds a masters in Greek, a bachelors IN hebrew, a bachelors in Biblical archeology and a PHD in theology. why should I trust you more than what He has written on the manner?

Anyone who I have ever seen say this always tries to go the RCC/Pope with the 10 groups of people route on the end times, it is not even a sensical argument tbh. It comes from Herbert W. Armstrong, a cultists. The 10 = Europe Reunited, the Little Horn arises AMONGST THEM, or simply is born in Europe (Greece).

Well now you have met someone who doesn't hold to that line of reasoning!
!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

@Ronald D Milam

You had posted this before:
Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

There is your LAST TRUMP which ends the Harvest/Church Age.

How is it that a preacher over 30 years is telling someone else they’re wrong when you think the above is right?

1. John is never ever identified as representing or symbolized as representing the church universal! Ever!

2. Where is the arch angel, the bema seat judgment, the reward, the dead and living rising, and the wedding? It’s absent!

3. If you take this as the last trump, that means you believe you’ll be: Caught up here and when you hear “come up hither”, you’re also gonna hear “let me show you the things that will happen there after”. What things are going to be shown to us hereafter? I don’t recall Paul teaching that.

4. How is this the last trump if the heavens haven’t been removed per Job 14:12 ?

5. How is this the last trump if Christ cannot leave heaven till the restoration of all things per Acts 3:21 ? He can’t descend to the air if the seals arnt even opened yet.

If you’re going to explain it to @Ronald Nolette , at least listen as well. Because you telling him he’s wrong, when you’re wrong is really messed up. The pot calling the kettle black.

Btw, are 5 of the 10 virgins in darkness or light when they trim their lights at a late hour? Is it a late hr in darkness when lights are required before darkness comes? Really brother….

Wuh Woh! We agree on something- this could start a trend!!!!

But the 5 virgins with no oil are unsaved! it is a parable and when oil is used symbolically- it always signifies the holy spirit.

Also you should read up on the Jewish wedding system, it matches so perfectly the church age from our betrothal (pentecost) until the bridegroom comes for His bride (the rapture)

http://www.arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs113m.pdf

 

[Ronald D Milam]

You had posted this before:
Rev. 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

There is your LAST TRUMP which ends the Harvest/Church Age.

How is it that a preacher over 30 years is telling someone else they’re wrong when you think the above is right?

1. John is never ever identified as representing or symbolized as representing the church universal! Ever!

My friend, you do not even understand the timing of the Rapture, THAT IS ON YOU. This isn't even a hard issue to comprehend. The whole book of Revelation is a representation of THINGS TO COME known as the HEREAFTER or THINGS THAT ARE. You seemingly can't grasp that at all.

The Church Age in Rev. 2 and 3 represents the things which are (Church Age). Then everything after Rev. 4:1 represents the things that will be HEREAFTER. Jesus represented the things you have SEEN. John and the Disciples had seen Jesus' life, death and resurrection, now John saw him in all of his Glory.

So, Revelation 1 is an OVERVIEW of the whole book. But what is it about?

Revelation 1:19 Write (1)the things which thou hast seen(Jesus in his Glory), and (2)the things which are(Church Age), and (3)the things which shall be hereafter; (70th week on, after the Church Age)

Why does this not register with you?

THE THNGS WHICH ARE

In Rev. 2 and 3 we get the Church Age via 7 Churches, the number 7 is Divine Completion. In Rev. 2:10 we are told about the CROWNS that OVERCOMERS will receive as a REWARD in heaven, go read it, and it tells how Smyrna will have tribulation 10 days (10 = Completion) thus the Church will have continual tribulation on this earth as Jesus tells us in John 16:33.

In Rev. 3:5 we are told the OVERCOMERS will get White Raiment (Robes) once they get to heaven, keep up with these PROMISES they get fulfilled in Rev. 4:4 to those who have spiritual eyes !!

In Rev. 3:21 we see the OVERCOMERS are told they will sit at God's THRONE.

We are given many rundowns over these two chapters, admonishments and praises, warnings and promises to THOSE WHO OVERCOME (don't forget that point). The Church Age was ongoing as John wrote the book of Revelation, so Rev. 2 and 3 are the TNINGS WHICH ARE. Keeping up? Lets move on.

THE THINGS WHICH WILL BE HEREAFTER

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The above verse matches EXACTLY the PROMISES made in those three verses I cited to THOSE who OVERCOME during the Church Age period !! Then we also see the 24 Elders sitting at God's Throne as another coded hint, in 1 Chronicles 24 we see the 24 Orders of the Priesthood. In Rev. 1:6 and Rev. 5:9-10 the Saints are called Kings and Priests. All of these is God giving you the story, but in a way in which only someone who knows the Old Testament can decipher it. Just like the Woman in Rev. 12 is decoded by us reading Gen. 37:9. Did you really think Jesus said he only spoke to the Disciples in parables so they hearing and seeing could understand but the world hearing and seeing couldn't understand, BUT THEN, tells the whole world what He means plainly in the book of Revelation? Really? You and I have to understand THE CODES which are mostly in the Old Testament. Out of 404 verses in the book of Revelation 289 have Old Testament Lingo. Now lets BACK UP to verse 1.

Rev. 4:1 After this(After WHAT? The Church Age) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven {Rapture Point) and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

After what? The Church Age !!!!!!!! What is the Hereafter? The 70th week on is the HEREAFTER, we will see Israel fleeing Judea (144,000 is a CODE for 5 Million Jews) in Rev. 7, JUST BEFORE the Day of the Lord hits in Rev. 8, the Seals in Rev. 6 only open up the Scrolled Judgment Book, they DO NOTHING, God has it right of course, messages sent could not be read until every seal was taken off, it is not His fault we have people who can not see this and who think the Seals are judgments, they are not. God even placed the 7th seal over in Rev. 8 so as to give us this huge hint. He also says in Rev. 7 HURT NOT the Earth, Sea nor Trees until my servants have been sealed. What hurts the Earth, Seas and Trees? See Rev. 8, it is right there. The Trumps hurts the Earth, Seas and Trees. So, Rev. 8 is the Day of the Lord, the 144,000 are 5 million Jews fleeing Judea. Want to see this in REAL TIME in Zechariah? Where it matches perfectly? NOTICE, Rev. 7 Fleeing, Rev. 8 is the DOTL..............NOW WATCH:

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

THE VERY NEXT VERSE............

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

In verse 3 Jesus returns to defeat Israel's enemies 3.5 years after verse 2. So, we see that 1/3 of all the Jews repent JUST BEFORE the DOTL Arrives, say hello to Rev. 7 the 144,000 is CODE as in (Fulness) 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 (COMPLETENESS) = 144,000 or ALL Israel who repents. So, how is 144,000 5 million? Well, the 1/3 of 15 million Jews = 5 million, not 144,000, the 144,000 = the CODE I gave you. Just like 7000 is a CODE common sense should tell anyone when they see these perfect numbers that they are CODES. God allows mankind to find their own salvation, we have to work it out, yet people can not understand the 144,000 is a CODE, but they understand the 10 Brides is a CODE, lol. I wonder why?

John is Represented as a RAPTURED ONE, who is then shown the things that will be HEREAFTER, he will be in Heaven at this time, he is just being shown his Future, no one but you said he represents the WHOLE CHURCH, but each individual does have to be Raptured right? BINGO. The Church is represent by the 24 Elders and those seen here.

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

We also see these same people in Rev. 7:9-17 and of course marrying the Lamb in Rev. 19.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

2. Where is the arch angel, the bema seat judgment, the reward, the dead and living rising, and the wedding? It’s absent!

The wedding in Rev. 19, which happens before Rev. 4, 5, and 7 because they have on White Robes, in Rev. 19 they are told they will soon get their White Pure Linen Robes, when they marry Jesus. The book of Revelation is not in chronological order. The Dead and Living are raised at the Rev. 4:1 Trump, isn't John now dead? Did that point escape you? Your problem I imagine, is you just can't understand the Pre Trib Rapture so everything in Eschatology will always escape you for the most part.

3. If you take this as the last trump, that means you believe you’ll be: Caught up here and when you hear “come up hither”, you’re also gonna hear “let me show you the things that will happen there after”. What things are going to be shown to us hereafter? I don’t recall Paul teaching that.

You need to focus on Jesus not Paul. Think these things through brother, I understand you are a smart guy from your posts, but you are stuck on this. God never wants us stuck on ideas that we can not prove via the scriptures.

4. How is this the last trump if the heavens haven’t been removed per Job 14:12 ?

Excuse me, I do not understand the point.

5. How is this the last trump if Christ cannot leave heaven till the restoration of all things per Acts 3:21 ? He can’t descend to the air if the seals arnt even opened yet.

Read John 20, Jesus left earth, took the Sacrifice to God, then returned with the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Jesus told Mary, touch me not, for I have not yet ascended unto the Father, then he told doubting Thomas to touch his wounds 8 days later. Mary merely touching Jesus would have placed sinned stained hands on the sacrifice, God could then not have accepted it. I guess other scriptures must confuse you on this, I do not feel the need to go research them because Jesus has come to earth many, many times.

Btw, are 5 of the 10 virgins in darkness or light when they trim their lights at a late hour? Is it a late hr in darkness when lights are required before darkness comes? Really brother….

I am tired, 5 of the 10 do not make the wedding, the number 10 means COMPLETION.

God Bless.

 

[farouk]

Are we even meant to calculate the timescale? rather, it's a case of being ready by God's grace and keeping occupied in Gospel activities.....

 

[WPM]

My friend, you do not even understand the timing of the Rapture, THAT IS IN YOU. This isn't even a hard issue to comprehend. The whole book of Revelation is a representation of THINGS TO COME known as the HEREAFTER or THINGS THAT ARE. You seemingly can't grasp that at all.

The Church Age in Rev. 2 and 3 represents the things which are (Church Age).

Where does it teach "The Church Age" in Rev. 2 and 3 or anywhere else in the Bible? It sounds like another man-made Pretrib term.

Then everything after Rev. 4:1 represents the things that will be HEREAFTER. Jesus represented the things you have SEEN. John and the Disciples had seen Jesus; life, death and resurrection, now John saw him in all of his Glory.

Revelation 4:1-2 commences, “After this (speaking of his supernatural encounter with Christ on Patmos) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”

So, Revelation 1 is an OVERVIEW of the whole book. But what is it about?

This is about the only thing we agree on.

Revelation 1:19 Write (1)the things which thou hast seen(Jesus in his Glory), and (2)the things which are(Church Age), and (3)the things which shall be hereafter;

Why does this not register with you?

THE THNGS WHICH ARE

In Rev. 2 and 3 we get the Church Age via 7 Churches, the number 7 is Divine Completion. In Rev. 2:10 we are told about the CROWNS that OVERCPMERS will receive as a REWARD in heaven, go read it, and it tells how Smyrna will have tribulation 10 days (10 = Completion) thus the Church will have continual tribulation on this earth as Jesus tells us in John 16:33.

In Rev. 3:5 we are told the OVERCOMERS will get White Raiment (Robes) once they get to heaven, keep up with these PROMISES they get fulfilled in Rev. 4:4 to those who have spiritual eyes !!

In Rev. 3:21 we see the OVERCOMERS are told they will sit at God's THRONE.

We are given many rundowns over these two chapters, admonishments and praises, warnings and promises to THOSE WHO OVERCOME (don't forget that point). The Church Age was ongoing as John wrote the book of Revelation, so Rev. 2 and 3 are the TNINGS WHICH ARE. Keeping up? Lets move on.

You talk a lot about "The Church Age" with showing it in Scripture. This phrase belongs to the Left Behind novels.

 

[WPM]

THE THINGS WHICH WILL BE HEREAFTER

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The above verse matches EXACTLY the PROMISES made in those three verses I cited to THOSE who OVERCOME during the Church Age period !! Then we also see the 24 Elders sitting at God's Throne as another coded hint, in 1 Chronicles 24 we see the 24 Orders of the Priesthood. In Rev. 1:6 and Rev. 5:9-10 the Saints are called Kings and Priests. All of these is God giving you the story, but in a way in which only someone who knows the Old Testament can decipher. Just like te Woman in Rev. 12 is decoded by us reading Gen. 37:9. Did you rally think Jesus said he only spoke to the Disciples in parables so they hearing and seeing could understand but the world hearing and seeing couldn't understand, BUT THEN, tell the whole world what He means plainly in the book of Revelation? Really? You and I have to understand THE CODES which are mostly in the Old Testament. Out of 404 verses in the book of Revelation 289 have Old Testament Lingo. Now lets BACK UP to verse 1.

But the word "Church" is not used anywhere here, so the Church cannot be here!

Rev. 4:1 After this(After WHAT? The Church Age) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heavenRapture Point) and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

After what? The Church Age !!!!!!!!

But where does it teach "The Church Age" in Rev. 2 and 3 or anywhere else in the Bible?

What is the Hereafter? The 70th week on is the HEREAFTER, we will see Israel fleeing Judea (144,000 a CODE for 5 Million Jews) in Rev. 7, JUST BEFORE the Day of the Lord hits in Rev. 8, the Seals in Rev. 6 only open up the Scrolled Judgment Book, they DO NOTHING, God has it right, messages sent could not be read until ever seal was taken off, it is not His fault we have people who can not see this and who think the Seals are judgments, they are not. God even placed the 7th seal over in Rev. 8 so as to give us this huge hint. He also says in Rev. 7 HURT NOT the Earth. Sea nor Trees until my servants have been sealed. What hurts the Earth, Seas and Trees? See Rev. 8, it is right there. The Trumps hurts the Earth, Seas and Trees. So, Rev. 8 is the Day of the Lord, the 144,000 are 5 million Jews fleeing Judea. Want to see this in REAL TIME in Zechariah? Where it matches perfectly? NOTICE, Rev. 7 Fleeing, Rev. 8 is the DOTL..............NOW WATCH:!

You force the 70th week into Revelation, where it is not mentioned or belong. This is classic Pretrib hermeneutics.

Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

THE VERY NEXT VERSE............

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

In verse 3 Jesus returns to defeat Israel's enemies 3.5 years after verse 2. So, we see that 1/3 of all the Jews repent JUST BEFORE the DOTL Arrives, say hello to Rev. 7 the 144,000 is CODE as in (Fulness) 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 (COMPLETENESS) = 144,000 or ALL Israel who repents. So, how is 144,000 5 million? Well, the 1/3 of 15 million Jews = 5 million, not 144,000, the 144,000 = the CODE I gave you. Just like 7000 is a CODE common sense should tell anyone when they see the perfect numbers that they are CODES. God allows mankind to find their own salvation, we have to work it out, yet people can not understand the 144,000 is a CODE, but they understand the 10 Brides is a CODE, lol. I wonder why?

Where is your 7-year tribulation mentioned in Zechariah or in Revelation? You force it into the text. You add unto Scripture.

John is Represented as a RAPTURED ONE, who is then shown the things that will be HEREAFTER, he will be in Heaven at this time, he is just being shown his Future, no one bit you said he represents the WHOLE CHURCH, but each individual does have top be Raptured right? BINGO. The Church is represent by the 24 Elders and those seen here.

Says who? Your teachers?

Revelation 4:1-2 has absolutely nothing to do with a secret rapture. In fact, note what it actually says and how it compares to similarly worded passages in Revelation. Remember, the safest way to understand Scripture is to compare Scripture with Scripture.

Revelation 4:1-2 commences, “After this (speaking of his supernatural encounter with Christ on Patmos) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”

There is no allusion here of the Lord descending in the clouds from heaven, there is no mention of the Church, we don’t see the saints rising to meet Him, there is no mention of the dead in Christ being resurrected and those who are alive and remain being caught up, there is no meeting Jesus in the air. It is all an elaborate hoax formulated by men which enjoys no biblical basis for their doctrine.

Nowhere in this chapter do we find any description of, or allusion to, the rapture of the saints. Rather, in contrast, it is a record of the catching away of John “in the Spirit” (4:2) to receive further revelation. In fact, chapters 4 & 5 in their totality outline a detailed description, by John, of the heavenly court and the One who sits upon the throne. Moreover, nowhere in this chapter is there even the slightest allusion to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ or the Church of Jesus Christ – generally.

(1) Who was this command addressed to?
(2) When did, or will, this event occur?
(3) What was it specifically speaking of?

(1) John
(2) It occurred 2,000 years ago
(3) John being caught up “in the spirit” into “heaven” to receive a supernatural revelation of things to come “hereafter.”

Rev. 5:9

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

We also see these same people in Rev. 7:9-17 and of course marrying the Lamb in Rev. 19.

But the word "Church" is not used anywhere here, so the Church cannot be here!

 

[No Pre-TB]

The wedding in Rev. 19, which happens before Rev. 4, 5, and 7 because they have on White Robes,

That’s backwards. Honestly, the only one that agrees with you is yourself. Right before the wedding, it’s announced that Christ reigns which correlates to the 7th trumpet. Something countless theologians, writers, biblical scholars and apologetics have said themselves.

You need to focus on Jesus not Paul. Think these things through brother, I understand you are a smart guy from your posts, but you are stuck on this. God never wants us stuck on ideas that we can not prove via the scriptures.

This is your response to post 3? Really?

Excuse me, I do not understand the point.

Job 14:12 is the point. The heavens haven’t been removed at Rev 4:1 therefore it’s scripturally impossible for it to be the resurrection or rapture as you said.

Read John 20, Jesus left earth, took the Sacrifice to God, then returned with the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Jesus told Mary, touch me not, for I have not yet ascended unto the Father, then he told doubting Thomas to touch his wounds 8 days later. Mary merely touching Jesus would have placed sinned stained hands on the sacrifice, God could then not have accepted it. I guess other scriptures must confuse you on this, I do not feel the need to go research them because Jesus has come to earth many, many times.

That has nothing to do with my statement. Acts 3:21 is talking about Christ coming back, not when he was on earth during his ministry. Again, you do not understand the context. Christ cannot come back to earth to raise us up till the restoration of all things. All time isn’t until the heavens are removed because we are told later he must remove what is movable so the unremovable may remain and all things restored

 

[No Pre-TB]

Yet that is said about the beast of the sea so that symbolic mouth is part of that beast not another.

Benson:
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things — This expression seems to be taken from the description of the little horn in Daniel’s vision, (Daniel 7:8,)

Barnes:
The language used here is the same as what is found in Daniel 7:8 when speaking of the "little horn:"

Gill:
very great things, and his look more stout than his fellows, Daniel 7:8.

If you say the False Prophet is the man of sin but this part isn’t, you’re denying the correlation of Daniel 7:8 to Revelation 13:5

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You need to focus on Jesus not Paul. Think these things through brother, I understand you are a smart guy from your posts, but you are stuck on this. God never wants us stuck on ideas that we can not prove via the scriptures.

Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, so to pay attention to pay is to pay attention to Jesus!

The wedding in Rev. 19, which happens before Rev. 4, 5, and 7 because they have on White Robes, in Rev. 19 they are told they will soon get their White Pure Linen Robes, when they marry Jesus. The book of Revelation is not in chronological order. The Dead and Living are raised at the Rev. 4:1 Trump, isn't John now dead? Did that point escape you? Your problem I imagine, is you just can't understand the Pre Trib Rapture so everything in Eschatology will always escape you for the most part.

Sorry, but if it happens before Rev. 4,5 and 7 God is smart enough to put it there. Why should we accept your timing instead of dozens of others who place it elsewhere? Why not just accept the flow of the book!

The church is raptured before the 70th week of Daniel starts, has to go through the bema seat judgment where all our works are tried. The gold silver and precious stones stay and the wood , hay and stubble are burned. We are assigned our white linen and Jesus returns! And that occurs at the end of the 70th week of Daniel when Jesus physically returns to fight the antichrist in what is dubbed the battle of Armageddon (but actually occurs near the city of Petra where the Jews of Rev. 12 and Matt 24 fled to)

 

[ewq1938]

Benson:
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things — This expression seems to be taken from the description of the little horn in Daniel’s vision, (Daniel 7:8,)

Barnes:
The language used here is the same as what is found in Daniel 7:8 when speaking of the "little horn:"

Gill:
very great things, and his look more stout than his fellows, Daniel 7:8.

If you say the False Prophet is the man of sin but this part isn’t, you’re denying the correlation of Daniel 7:8 to Revelation 13:5

Daniel and Rev do not match in many important areas.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Where does it teach "The Church Age" in Rev. 2 and 3 or anywhere else in the Bible? It sounds like another man-made Pretrib term.

If you refuse to listen to those called to Prophecy etc. you may never see anything of yourself, then again, I trust no one from the Post Trib/Pre Wrath camp on anything via Eschatology. If you can't get the simple things you will never get the complex issues.

So, I only spent a good while explaining the THINGS WHICH ARE...........When was John living? During the Church Age. So, what would be the THINGS WHICH ARE? Pretty simple tbh. You also seemingly do not understand how God uses numbers, 7 is Divine Completion, 10 is Completion. So, the 10 Brides you get, but the 7 Churches leaves you confounded. I think its because you have a wrong understanding of the Rapture and you have built everything around that wrong assumption. The pride of life has to be overcome. It sounds like you do not understand prophecy.

Revelation 4:1-2 commences, “After this (speaking of his supernatural encounter with Christ on Patmos) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”

No one will agree with you here except for those desperate Post Trib guys who can not answer these factual points. Good try at a dodge. We all know Rev. 2 and 3 = the Church Age. If you don't then you are on a whole other plane. This isn't even worth rebutting.

You talk a lot about "The Church Age" with showing it in Scripture. This phrase belongs to the Left Behind novels.

Which I have never read nor care to, but anytime I see this kind of attitude, it reminds me Satan attacks the brethren in Heaven day and night. But let this be known, you trying this just shows me your true colors overall, and by the way, those guys may be great guys but I do not know them, I do not read NOVELS sir. The bible has told us about the Pre Trib Rapture for 2000 years. Maybe you will be left here. I will not be here for the tribulation, nor will the Church. God doesn't really care what your ideas are.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

But the word "Church" is not used anywhere here, so the Church cannot be here!

The book of Revelation is my specialty. The word Church means BODY. What does Rev. 5:9:10 say? They came from every Nation, Tongue, Kindred etc. etc. And they have been REDEEMED by the blood of Jesus. I just showed you WHO GETS these gifts, the OVERCOMERS are the Church OVERCOMERS? My goodness man. You are just in denial.

But where does it teach "The Church Age" in Rev. 2 and 3 or anywhere else in the Bible?

Again, I will not rehash a bad point. If you can not understand that OVERCOMERS are the Church then maybe you need to admit you are not called unto Prophecy and let those who are carry on. Not one point you have made yet is a sensical point, seems you are more concerned about your misunderstanding via the Rapture than anything else, I call that tunnel vision. You are so wrapped up in this wrong think you cant see anything else. At least the others make valid points from time to time.

You force the 70th week into Revelation, where it is not mentioned or belong. This is classic Pretrib hermeneutics.

Ammusing.........

Nowhere in this chapter do we find any description of, or allusion to, the rapture of the saints. Rather, in contrast, it is a record of the catching away of John “in the Spirit” (4:2) to receive further revelation. In fact, chapters 4 & 5 in their totality outline a detailed description, by John, of the heavenly court and the One who sits upon the throne. Moreover, nowhere in this chapter is there even the slightest allusion to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ or the Church of Jesus Christ – generally.

The book of Revelation is not a detailed understanding per se, in the OVERVIEW we get what is coming. Then we get a view of the order of Events. Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age. Rev. 4 and 5 is Jesus in Heaven with the Raptured Saints BEFORE he ever opens the Seals. Rev. 6 is the Seals being opened, which is Jesus prophesying what they BRING, it is not the actual Wrath of God falling. Seals 1-5 is Jesus FORETELLING what the Anti-Christs rule will bring. Seal #6 is Jesus FORETELLING what God's Wrath will bring when it hits in Rev. 8, it will last 42 months.

Rev. 7 is the Jews fleeing Judea after the 5 million come unto Christ Jesus. Rev. 8 is where the wrath of God falls, the Anti-Christ CAN NOT GO FORTH conquering until this Asteroid strikes (God's Wrath). All four Trumps are ONE ASTEROID (Apophis). The Fire comes in first (Trumpet #1) Then the IMPACT of the Asteroid is next (Trump #2). Then the FALLOUT (Trump #3/Poison/Wormwood) comes next. Then the Sun and Moon (Trump #4) goes Dark (this fulfills Seal #6 and Joel 2:31). Understanding these things and just guessing is totally different.

Rev. 9 comes next, it delivers two woes, Woe #1 lets Apollyon and his demon hordes out, the Scarlet Colored Beast of Rev. 17. Woe #2 is an Angelic Army that destroys 1/3 of those who have taken the Mark of the Beast. Rev. 8:13 says the last three Trumps to sound are the THREE WOES !!

Next comes Rev. 16 (you can add 15, they should be one chapter). This ENDS Mankind and Satan's rule on earth. Jesus returns in Rev. 16:19 (Vial #7 which is the 3rd Woe), Jesus calls those He defeated Babylon the Great. Meaning Babylon is the WHOLE WORLD as led by Satan the one confusing mankind so much they decide to fight against their own loving creator.

You really have zero understanding about prophecy do you? So, you are looking for The Rapture ? Its in Rev. 14:14 YOUR PROBLEM is you do not understand how the book of Revelation works. Rev. 1-9 then 16 are in Chronological Order. Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Chapters.

Rev. 14 and 19 both cover 7 years. We see Jesus lands on Mt Zion for the 5 Million Jews (144,000) to Harvest his Wheat into the barn. We see in Rev. 14:17-20 that the wicked grapes get placed into the Wine-press of God's Wrath in another end time Harvest. But in verse 14 we see a FLASHBACK to the Pre Trib Rapture where Jesus himself from upon a Cloud Harvests the Church. Rev. 14 is "The Harvest Chapter, that why we see the Rapture there. It covers 7 years because of the Pre Trib Rapture scene.

Rev. 11 starts 75 days before Gods Wrath because its the Two-witnesses, then lasts through the Second Coming, Rev. 12, 13, 17 and 18 all start on the DOTL and lasts 1260 days NOTICE: Satan the Dragon chases the Woman for 1260 days in Rev. 12 and the Beast from the Sea rules for 1260 days in Rev. 13. The Harlot is ALL FALSE RELIGION of All Time, and the Anti-Christ and his 10 (Europe) kings wipe her out in Rev. 17:16 BUT WHY? There is no place for Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, or even old style Jupiter or Zeus style worship, now the Harlot who was always joined at the hip with the Beast must be killed off, there is room for ONLY BEAST WORSHIP, this of course lasts for 42 months. Rev. 18 is the WHOLE WORLD getting pelted by God's Plagues for 42 months.

So, we get the DETALS elsewhere, God wrote this book. We see the EVIDENCE of the Rapture via the people that are shown OVERCOMERS just who are these OVERCOMERS if not the Church sir? Who are THE REDEEMED in Rev. 5:9-10 and Rev. 7:9-17? Those not called unto prophecy ought to admit they are just guessing. Let those of us called do our jobs.

 

[WPM]

If you refuse to listen to those called to Prophecy etc. you may never see anything of yourself, then again, I trust no one from the Post Trib/Pre Wrath camp on anything via Eschatology. If you can't get the simple things you will never get the complex issues.

So, I only spent a good while explaining the THINGS WHICH ARE...........When was John living? During the Church Age. So, what would be the THINGS WHICH ARE? Pretty simple tbh. You also seemingly do not understand how God uses numbers, 7 is Divine Completion, 10 is Completion. So, the 10 Brides you get, but the 7 Churches leaves you confounded. I think its because you have a wrong understanding of the Rapture and you have built everything around that wrong assumption. The pride of life has to be overcome. It sounds like you do not understand prophecy.


No one will agree with you here except for those desperate Post Trib guys who can not answer these factual points. Good try at a dodge. We all know Rev. 2 and 3 = the Church Age. If you don't then you are on a whole other plane. This isn't even worth rebutting.


Which I have never read nor care to, but anytime I see this kind of attitude, it reminds me Satan attacks the brethren in Heaven day and night. But let this be known, you trying this just shows me your true colors overall, and by the way, those guys may be great guys but I do not know them, I do not read NOVELS sir. The bible has told us about the Pre Trib Rapture for 2000 years. Maybe you will be left here. I will not be here for the tribulation, nor will the Church. God doesn't really care what your ideas are.

Yah-de-dah-de-dah. Your avoidance is obvious. You have clearly no scriptural text to reinforce your beliefs. You manipulate the text in Revelation in an attempt to support your error. You have no rapture in Rev 4:1. You know that. That is John getting caught up in the spirit 2000 years ago, not some imaginary rapture in the future before a 7-year trib that you have been taught. What I am saying is, it is a past event, not a future event. This phrase "the Church age" belongs to your Left Behind novels.

If you are so confident about your beliefs, and you have hard scripture to support them, please answer this question: what Scripture describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

 

[WPM]

The book of Revelation is my specialty. The word Church means BODY. What does Rev. 5:9:10 say? They came from every Nation, Tongue, Kindred etc. etc. And they have been REDEEMED by the blood of Jesus. I just showed you WHO GETS these gifts, the OVERCOMERS are the Church OVERCOMERS? My goodness man. You are just in denial.

I disagree. You are just repeating what your teachers have taught you. You are totally ignorant as to the flow and meaning of Revelation. You cannot even support one claim from with inspired quotes. You can only quote what you have been taught. Ok, so you admit the word "Church" is not found in this heavenly description and you quickly switch to the word "body" as in "body of Christ." Where is it mentioned in Rev. 5:9:10? Nowhere. You force it in there to support your mistaken beliefs.

Again, I will not rehash a bad point. If you can not understand that OVERCOMERS are the Church then maybe you need to admit you are not called unto Prophecy and let those who are carry on. Not one point you have made yet is a sensical point, seems you are more concerned about your misunderstanding via the Rapture than anything else, I call that tunnel vision. You are so wrapped up in this wrong think you cant see anything else. At least the others make valid points from time to time.

Ammusing.........

1. There is no mention of the Church in Daniel 9.
2. There is no mention of tribulation in Daniel 9.
3. There is no 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9.
4. There is no rapture mentioned in Daniel 9.
5. There is no 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9.
6. There is nowhere in Daniel 9 that tells us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown.
7. There is no antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9.
8. There is nowhere in Daniel 9 that says antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years.
9. There is nowhere in Daniel 9 that teaches antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel.
10. There are no tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9.
11. There is no mention in Daniel 9 of the rebuilding of a third temple.

The book of Revelation is not a detailed understanding per se, in the OVERVIEW we get what is coming. Then we get a view of the order of Events. Rev. 2 and 3 is the Church Age. Rev. 4 and 5 is Jesus in Heaven with the Raptured Saints BEFORE he ever opens the Seals. Rev. 6 is the Seals being opened, which is Jesus prophesying what they BRING, it is not the actual Wrath of God falling. Seals 1-5 is Jesus FORETELLING what the Anti-Christs rule will bring. Seal #6 is Jesus FORETELLING what God's Wrath will bring when it hits in Rev. 8, it will last 42 months.

Firstly, you haven't even been able to show us the phrase "the Church age" in Revelation 2 and 3. Secondly, you have not been able to locate your "rapture" in Revelation 4:1. That is another Pretrib invention. So, go no further until you do. All the end-time views believe the dead in Christ are currently in heaven, as in Rev 5 and 6. So that proves nothing. So far, you have zero to prove your error. Why so many of us have abandoned Pretrib.

Rev. 7 is the Jews fleeing Judea after the 5 million come unto Christ Jesus. Rev. 8 is where the wrath of God falls, the Anti-Christ CAN NOT GO FORTH conquering until this Asteroid strikes (God's Wrath). All four Trumps are ONE ASTEROID (Apophis). The Fire comes in first (Trumpet #1) Then the IMPACT of the Asteroid is next (Trump #2). Then the FALLOUT (Poison/Wormwood) comes next. Then the Sun and Moon goes Dark (see Seal #6 and Joel 2:31). Understanding these things and just guessing is totally different.

Rev. 9 comes next, it delivers two woes, Woe #1 lets Apollyon and his demon hordes out, the Scarlet Colored Beast of Rev. 17. Woe #2 is an Angelic Army that destroys 1/3 of those who have taken the Mark of the Beast. Rev. 8:13 says the last three Trumps to sound are the THREE WOES !!

Next comes Rev. 16 (you can add 15, they should be one chapter). This ENDS Mankind and Satan's rule on earth. Jesus returns in Rev. 16:19 (Vial #7 which is the 3rd Woe), Jesus calls the defeated Babylon the Great. Meaning Babylon is the WHOLE WORLD as led by Satan the one confusing mankind so much they decide to fight against their own loving creator.

You really have zero understanding about prophecy do you? So, you are looking for The Rapture ? Its in Rev. 14:14 YOUR PROBLEM is you do not understand how the book of Revelation works. Rev. 1-9 then 16 are in Chronological Order. Rev. 10, 11,m 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Chapters.

Rev. 14 and 19 both cover 7 years. We see Jesus lands on Mt Zion for the 5 Million Jews (144,000) to Harvest his Wheat into the barn. We see in Rev. 14:17-20 that the wicked grapes get placed into the Wine-press of God's Wrath in another end time Harvest. But in verse 14 we see a FLASHBACK to the Pre Trib Rapture where Jesus himself from upon a Cloud Harvests the Church.

Rev. 11 starts 75 days before Gods Wrath because its the Two-witnesses. then lasts through the Second Coming, Rev. 12, 13, 17 and 18 both start on the DOTL and lasts 1260 days NOTICE: Satan the Dragon chases the Woman for 1260 days in Rev. 12 and the Beast from the Sea rules for 1260 days in Rev. 13. The Harlot is ALL FALSE RELIGION of All Time, and the Anti-Christ and his 10 (Europe) kings wipe her out in Rev. 17:16 BUT WHY? There is no place for Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, or even old style Jupiter or Zeus style worship, now the Harlot who was always joined at the hip with the Beast must be killed off, there is room for ONLY BEAST WORSHIP, this of course lasts for 42 months. Rev. 18 is the WHOLE WORLD getting pelted by God's Plagues for 42 months.

So, we get the DETALS elsewhere, God wrote this book. We see the EVIDENCE of the Rapture via the people that are shown OVERCOMERS just who are these OVERCOMERS if not the Church sir? Who are THE REDEEMED in Rev. 5:9-10 and Rev. 7:9-17?

Those not called unto prophecy ought to admit they are just guessing. Let those of us called do our jobs.

When we examine the time-periods embodied within Revelation 4-19 we significantly find that they add up to a period of 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

5 months – the wicked tormented (Rev 9:5-10).
1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour – four angels prepared to pour out the 6th trumpet judgment (Rev 9:15)
42 months – the temple trampled by Gentiles (Rev 11:2).
1260 days – the two witnesses prophesy (Rev 11:3).
3 ½ days – two witnesses lie dead (Rev 11:9).
1260 days – woman flees into the wilderness (Revelation 12:6).
Times, time, and half a time – woman nourished in the wilderness (Rev 12:14).
42 months – power given to the beast (Rev 13:5).
1 hour – the beast receives power with the ten kings (Rev 17:12).
1 hour – Babylon destroyed (Rev 18:10-19).

5 x 3 ½ years + 1 year = 18 ½ years.
5 months + 1 month = 6 months (or ½ year).
3 ½ days + 1 day = 4 ½ days.
3 x 1 hr = 3 hrs.

TOTAL 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

No imaginary 7 year trib!

 

[WPM]

Well both of yo0u are misreading teh book. God said that we are to be deliverd from the wrath to come and teh tribulation period is the wrath to come.

So the church will be raptured before the tribulation period starts.

Dead in Christians then we who are alive!

Instead of always presenting your personal opinions, how about furnishing us with hard Scripture that teaches that there will be a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord?

 

[Ronald D Milam]

That’s backwards. Honestly, the only one that agrees with you is yourself. Right before the wedding, it’s announced that Christ reigns which correlates to the 7th trumpet. Something countless theologians, writers, biblical scholars and apologetics have said themselves.

No, your thinking is backwards, here brother can't even get the simple timing of the rapture correct. The 7th Trump does bring Jesus. Allow me to try and teach you why your perception of Rev. 19 is all wrong. In a post above I say Rev. 14 and 19 both cover 7 years. Whereas Rev. 12, 13, 17 and 18 all cover 1260 days only. These are all Parenthetical Chapters with SPECIFIC DETAILED information about certain events. We must add in Rev. 11 as a sidebar of sorts, it starts 75 days before the 1260 DOTL event, because they show up at the 1335 Blessing, they get Israel to repent, then when the False Prophets STOPS Jesus Worship in the temple at the 1290 AND places the AoD Image of the Beast (E.U. President), the Jews who repented will understand they have 30 days to flee before the 1260 Anti-Christ comes forth. So, indeed, the Two-witnesses chapter starts 75 days before the Beasts rule starts, BUT................does this make sense, does this fit the TIMELINE because both have 1260 day Ordained Offices set by God !! Yes, Who dies first? The Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, the Beast dies at the 7th Vial (end of the 3rd Woe). So, if both have 1260 day Ordained Offices, and one dies first, then they also have to SHOW UP FIRST. (Elementary).

So, why is Jesus shown to take over in Rev. 11 ? Simple, that is the Two-witnesses Chapter, just like Rev. 14 is The Harvest Chapter, and Rev. 12 is the Dragon chasing the Woman (Israel) for 1260 days chapter. Just like Rev. 13 is the Beasts 1260 days of rule chapter. Just like Rev. 17 is all about the Harlot getting killed off by the kings/beast chapter. Just like Rev. 18 is all about the whole world(Babylon) being Judged chapter. So, Jesus is shown as a part of the Two-witnesses chapter because the (GET THIS NOW) 7th Trump will BRING VICTORY, but we do not get THE DETAILS in Rev. 11. Just like we are told about the 2nd Woe also in Rev. 11 but we also get NO DETAILS there, we have to turn to Rev. 9 to get the DETAILS for the 2nd Woe don't we? Likewise we have to turn to Rev. 16 to get the DETAILS of the 3rd Woe, which is all 7 Vials. So, why is this relevant to the Two-witnesses chapter when they die at the 2nd Woe? Because the Two-witnesses JOB is to get Israel to repent AND to pray down all the plagues just like Moses' staff put forth all the plagues in Egypt. We all know it is of God, but go check, they have been given the task of praying down the Plagues, which all come from the 7 Trumps, the First Four being the Apophis Asteroid, the last 3 being Woes as Rev. 8:13 tells us. So, the 7th Trump WILL INDEED bring victory. But we get the real time events in Rev. 16, Rev. 11 is a Parenthetical Chapter that RETELLS a story withing a story.

The Wrath of God lasts 42 months from Rev. 8, 9 and 16 (15&16 go together, there were no chapters). Then we get Rev. 10 which speaks of the coming 7 Thunders (7 Trumps) which change everything but plays out in Rev 8, 9 and 16. Then in Rev. 11 we get the Two-witnesses Ministry. Then in Rev. 12 we get the Dragon chasing Israel for 1260 days, has that TIMLINE never registered with you? Then in Rev. 13 we get the Anti-Christ/Beast who rules for how long? 1260 days !! Again that TIMELINE never register with you? You still think the book of Revelation is in chronological order? Rev. 14 is the Three Harvests Chapter which covers 7 years as does Rev. 19, you see I never said Rev. 19 doesn't happen after the 7th Trump where Jesus and the Church shows up to defeat the Beast and his minions, you just assumed that because you can't see what I see. The Marriage happens early in Rev. 19, which is BEFORE Rev. 4 and 5 because we are yet to get our White Robes in Rev. 19, but we are seen with them in Rev. 4, 5 and 7. Only after we get our white robes are we shown going to the Marriage Supper which is Armageddon in Rev. 19. That indeed happens after the 7th Vial, which comes from the 7th Trump, because the 7th Trump brings the 3rd Woe which is all 7 Vials combined. Rev. 4 and 5 happen JUST BEFORE the 1260 events, so naturally we have our White Robes by that time, Rev. 19:7-8 shows us as we just got to heaven, BEFORE we have been given our robes, thus it states this below:

Rev. 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready( Not yet Married are we? ). 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white { Get it now? } for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Now in verse 14 we have on those White Robes. Rev. 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen(Saints NOT Angels), white and clean.


Pssttt, Revelation 11 (7th Trump), Revelation14 (End Time Harvests), Rev. 16:19 (Babylon the Great Falls) and Rev. 19:17-20 (Armageddon) are all the EXACT SAME EVENTS !! You trusty theologians need to start asking the holy spirit how to interpret the bible it seems.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Job 14:12 is the point. The heavens haven’t been removed at Rev 4:1 therefore it’s scripturally impossible for it to be the resurrection or rapture as you said.

You are off the deep end here a wee bit, you have taken some inference somewhere and run with it. Jesus will rule from earth/Jerusalem for 1000 years so I do not take that as a serious point at all. I see you as confused on a point somewhere, but its not something I take serious because the earth will be here for at least 1000 more years after the Second Coming. I would look into something like this, but the sky will be here for 1000 years, its going nowhere soon.

That has nothing to do with my statement. Acts 3:21 is talking about Christ coming back, not when he was on earth during his ministry. Again, you do not understand the context. Christ cannot come back to earth to raise us up till the restoration of all things. All time isn’t until the heavens are removed because we are told later he must remove what is movable so the unremovable may remain and all things restored

Jesus had already died in John 20. You guys take things out of context, overthink SINGLE ISSUES, until you learn how to look at things correctly in the big picture you will always allow the small picture single issues like Matt. 24:29 will confuse you. I mean not understanding the Jesus returns IMMEDIARELY AFTER the tribulation, WITH THE Church totally confuses you guys. That's because you are small picture guys, I mean to hear a post tribber's passion on that as if he's discovered EUREKA in a box, only to be told yes, tat is Jesus' Second Coming, he returns with the Church just as Rev. 19 says, which NEVER DEFLATES you guys, sadly, because you take SINGLE ISSUES and run with them, exactly the opposite of how God wrote the bible, as one book that all must mesh together via many men's authorship, proving the Holy Spirits hand in writing the bible. Small single issues, small picture guys, will never get it, especially prophecy.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, so to pay attention to pay is to pay attention to Jesus!

Jesus is God, men sees Darkly.

Sorry, but if it happens before Rev. 4,5 and 7 God is smart enough to put it there. Why should we accept your timing instead of dozens of others who place it elsewhere? Why not just accept the flow of the book!

God wrote the Revelation Himself, He did put it there, in Rev. 4:1. Rev. 14 and 19 both cover the full 7 years. In Rev. 19 we are told to PREPARE ourselves for the wedding to the Lamb, and that we will get White Robes.

Rev. 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife(THE CHURCH) hath made herself ready.

8 And to her(THE CHURCH) was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Now lets see if I am correct.........who has on White Raiment (Robes).

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Rev. 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Reckon these are REDEEMED Angels (no such thing) or the Bride in Heaven with WHITE ROBES on which means this happens AFTER Rev. 19:7-8 !! None yet seen in Rev. 19, because that is the Marriage of the Lamb and Marriage Supper (Armageddon) chapter. And of course we will get married as soon as we travel to Heaven, BINGO, which happens before Rev. 4 because that happens just before the 1260 event, Jesus opening the Seals is merely Jesus foretelling to the bride in heaven what is about to hit earth as soon as the 7th Seal opens the book of Judgments (Trumpet Judgments) as seen in Rev. 8.

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

See, when you get off of SINGLE ISSUES and look at the BIG PICTURE the truth always comes out. Rev. 19 is BEFORE Rev. 4, 5 and 7 because we do nit yet have our White Robes !! Funny how proper reading of scriptures never lead us wrong. Then we also see the Church returning in Rev. 19, to the Marriage Supper or Armageddon. This is why Rev. 19 covers 7 years as does the Harvest Chapter (Rev. 14) which shows the Wheat or Israel being Harvested at Jesus' Second Coming and the Wicked Grapes being placed in the Wine-press of Gods Wrath (Rev. 16:19 also shows this..........SAME EVENT). BUT...............in Rev. 14:14 we see a FLASHBACK to the Pre-trib rapture where Jesus from upon a cloud Harvests his Bride the Church. All three Harvests are placed in the Harvest Chapter. God wrote this book, we have to understand it, He meant to make it hard to understand, WHY? For the same reason Jesus told the Disciples that he spoke unto then in parables, so the world hearing would not hear and seeing would not see but they hearing and seeing could understand.

Not many at all see what I see via the book of Revelation, I do not follow men. But not seeing the timing of the Rapture really has no excuse imho, its too easy.

The church is raptured before the 70th week of Daniel starts, has to go through the bema seat judgment where all our works are tried. The gold silver and precious stones stay and the wood , hay and stubble are burned. We are assigned our white linen and Jesus returns! And that occurs at the end of the 70th week of Daniel when Jesus physically returns to fight the antichrist in what is dubbed the battle of Armageddon (but actually occurs near the city of Petra where the Jews of Rev. 12 and Matt 24 fled to)

The 70th week is 7 Years, so the Church has to be raptured Pre Trib by your own tangled up logic sir. We are not taken to Heaven if we do not have the Light (Holy Spirit) in us, do nit kid yourself God doesn't know all of this at every moment in time. He knows exactly how many minutes and seconds you have been in error on the Rapture, He knows everything.

No, it happens near Jerusalem, the word Armageddon is probably misapplied or Jesus appears in Jerusalem then in an instant goes to Megiddo. Not that important tbh. Its not in the Petra/Bozrah area however, NOTICE, he comes unto the Petra/Bozrah area with blood strained garments? That means Armageddon has already happened. He has already treaded the wine-press of God's wrath. In Isaiah you are getting prose. Its different prose in Rev. 14, NOTICE the 1444,000 (5 million Jews) are waiting fir him in Jerusalem, that is PROSE also, just showing that Jesus will set up a nation where Abraham's descendants will rule with him during the coming Kingdom Age for 1000 years. So, he neither goes o the Petra/Bozrah are first, NOR are they in Jerusalem when he shows up. Now Jesus may transport them to Jerusalem, thus we might get to versions which are correct in essence, I do not worry too much about these type of things tbh.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

When we examine the time-periods embodied within Revelation 4-19 we significantly find that they add up to a period of 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

You need to go sit this out. You are as confused as anyone I have ever seen on prophecy sir.
FOR INSTANCE:

5 months – the wicked tormented (Rev 9:5-10).
1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour – four angels prepared to pour out the 6th trumpet judgment (Rev 9:15)
42 months – the temple trampled by Gentiles (Rev 11:2).
1260 days – the two witnesses prophesy (Rev 11:3).
3 ½ days – two witnesses lie dead (Rev 11:9).
1260 days – woman flees into the wilderness (Revelation 12:6).
Times, time, and half a time – woman nourished in the wilderness (Rev 12:14).
42 months – power given to the beast (Rev 13:5).
1 hour – the beast receives power with the ten kings (Rev 17:12).
1 hour – Babylon destroyed (Rev 18:10-19).

5 x 3 ½ years + 1 year = 18 ½ years.
5 months + 1 month = 6 months (or ½ year).
3 ½ days + 1 day = 4 ½ days.
3 x 1 hr = 3 hrs.

TOTAL 19 years, 4 ½ days and 3 hours.

No imaginary 7 year trib!

This makes no sense. Do you understand the book of Revelation is not in Chronological Order?

So, how long do the kings rule with the Beast? 42 Months not ONE HOUR. So, how ,long is it that Babylon (which means the WHOLE WORLD) is being hit by God's Plagues ? One hour. So, God just told you that His Wrath of Plagues last 42 months and you think its One hour !! SMH

Anyone that would add those numbers together needs help on Prophecy brother.