Natural Theology of Mortal Souls

[Phoneman777]

Genesis 2:7, KJV: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." It doesn't say what you claim it says.

Some other translations...

"Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." NIV

"then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." NRSVue

"The Lord God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." NET

You are focusing on the single word "soul" in the KJV. Poor exegesis. There is nothing that says that the soul didn't exist prior to this.

The rest of your post is irrational.

When searching for truth, focusing on a verse that everyone chooses to ignore is not "poor exegesis" - it's just good sense...and criticism of another's position without a Bible reference to back it up is a poor excuse for argument.

A soul comes into existence and continues to exist only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life. When the Body returns to the Earth and the Breath returns to God, the Soul DIES - and what a shame I have to tell full grown adults what even a child can understand: that "death" means exactly what it means - a cessation of life - not a continuation thereof.

 

[face2face]

Thank you. I must say you have the most integrity of anyone I have disagreed with.

What I try to do, is to strip all teachings of the fluffy stuff, and get down to the bare bones. It's the same that I do with my own teaching.

And most people get offended, so that they either misrepresent what I am showing about their teaching, or just attack the messenger.

Several times, you have acknowledge the accuracy of my commentary of your doctrine, without any offense or sign of weakness.

You know what you teach and why, and you don't mind others repeating it in their own words, so long as it is correct.

I applaud you, even if we disagree over the doctrine of mortal souls.

Afterall, what matters most is our inward purity with Jesus Christ, and walking as He walked on earth.

Must need agree with that also.
The consequence of believing in the immortal soul and heaven going is it falsely leads people to believe they have a hope when they dont.
The truth is one must be in a covenant relationship with God before they can be raised from death.
I can show you clearly how the faithful of old viewed death as a sleep; see Psalms 13:3 and Daniel 12:2 Matthew 9:24; Matthew 27:52; Mark 5:39; Luke 8:52; John 11:11–14; Acts 7:60; 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6, 18, 20, 51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13–14; and 2 Peter 3:4. The idea of death is not permanent as it is for those without hope. This also precludes the false idea of heaven going which is nowhere taught in the Bible however the Bible is very clear teaching the dust to dust from front to back cover. Adding the unconscious state of man and his eternal hope there is no room in the Scripture for man being in possession of immortal essence or heaven going.

 

[robert derrick]

Must need agree with that also.

As I said. We disagree, and I've offered responses to your challenges, some of which you do not acknowledge, so I won't repeat myself. I'll only continue with new things you offer.

The consequence of believing in the immortal soul and heaven going is it falsely leads people to believe they have a hope when they dont.

The false hope is of sinning at the end, and still being in the presence of the Lord, when the body goes to the grave.

The truth is one must be in a covenant relationship with God before they can be raised from death.

True. Only the righteous souls of just men will be made spiritually perfect at the death of their mortal bodies, and only their bodies will be resurrected immortal unto everlasting life with God and the Lamb, while the dead bodies of the wicked will be resurrected immortal unto shame and eternal torment apart from God and His hew heaven and earth.

I can show you clearly how the faithful of old viewed death as a sleep; see Psalms 13:3 and Daniel 12:2 Matthew 9:24; Matthew 27:52; Mark 5:39; Luke 8:52; John 11:11–14; Acts 7:60; 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6, 18, 20, 51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13–14; and 2 Peter 3:4.

Saints speak of the dead bodies of them in the presence of the Lord, as only sleeping until those bodies are raised immortally incorruptible spiritual bodies, as that of the Lord Himself:

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

Read Rev 1 to see what the resurrected bodies of the saints will look like, in the likeness of Jesus' own resurrected body.

The idea of death is not permanent as it is for those without hope. This also precludes the false idea of heaven going which is nowhere taught in the Bible however the Bible is very clear teaching the dust to dust from front to back cover. Adding the unconscious state of man and his eternal hope there is no room in the Scripture for man being in possession of immortal essence or heaven going.

Dead bodies of the wicked are just decayed flesh and blood, that are not resurrected immortal.

Dead souls separated from God by their sins, will be eternally shamed in the end, if they repent not.

This also precludes the false idea of heaven going which is nowhere taught in the Bible however the Bible is very clear teaching the dust to dust from front to back cover. Adding the unconscious state of man and his eternal hope there is no room in the Scripture for man being in possession of immortal essence or heaven going.

As I said, I've already shown where Scripture proves it is so.

You have no responses to them.

Unfortunately, your integrity only includes someone accurately quoting your doctrine, without getting personal upset by it. It does not include responding to fair challenges to it, at least so far.

I only give honor where honor is due.

 

[robert derrick]

In conclusion, all doctrine is proven by simple Scriptures, that can mean nothing other than what they say.

Either we agree with God's word and renew our minds in sound doctrine, or we reject plain language of Scripture to believe a lie of our own:

“We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”

The soul and spirit of the saint is absent from the body, that goes to the grave, and is present with the Lord in heaven, awaiting the resurrection of the dead body.

Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

The mortal body is only a temporary tabernacle for the soul and spirit of man.

Natural man only thinks on the natural things, natural theologians only give lip service to a mortal soul that is only natural flesh and blood, and Scripture teaches immortal souls created by Christ in the lowest parts of the earth, that shed their natural tabernacles to be in the presence of the Lord or in flames of hell.

 

[face2face]

As I said. We disagree, and I've offered responses to your challenges, some of which you do not acknowledge, so I won't repeat myself. I'll only continue with new things you offer.




The false hope is of sinning at the end, and still being in the presence of the Lord, when the body goes to the grave.

True. Only the righteous souls of just men will be made spiritually perfect at the death of their mortal bodies, and only their bodies will be resurrected immortal unto everlasting life with God and the Lamb, while the dead bodies of the wicked will be resurrected immortal unto shame and eternal torment apart from God and His hew heaven and earth.



Saints speak of the dead bodies of them in the presence of the Lord, as only sleeping until those bodies are raised immortally incorruptible spiritual bodies, as that of the Lord Himself:

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

Read Rev 1 to see what the resurrected bodies of the saints will look like, in the likeness of Jesus' own resurrected body.



Dead bodies of the wicked are just decayed flesh and blood, that are not resurrected immortal.

Dead souls separated from God by their sins, will be eternally shamed in the end, if they repent not.


As I said, I've already shown where Scripture proves it is so.

You have no responses to them.

Unfortunately, your integrity only includes someone accurately quoting your doctrine, without getting personal upset by it. It does not include responding to fair challenges to it, at least so far.

I only give honor where honor is due.

If you are able to allude to these Scriptures which show the disembodiment of an immortal essence by all means do so. For now the text teaches us that soul means life, body, being and nothing more. I've shown you the relevant verses that teach this truth and you have ignored them on every occasion.

Whoso will save his life (psuche) shall lose it—lose his own soul? (psuche) or what shall he give in exchange for his soul (psuche)? Matthew 16:25 & 26.

Life means soul that's all...not complicated....even the simple can understand it.

F2F

 

[robert derrick]

If you are able to allude to these Scriptures which show the disembodiment of an immortal essence by all means do so.

I've done so already for you. You can go back, read them, quote them, and respond specifically to them if you like. I'll be glad to see it.

I've already done your responses that courtesy.

For now the text teaches us that soul means life, body, being and nothing more. I've shown you the relevant verses that teach this truth and you have ignored them on every occasion.

Whoso will save his life (psuche) shall lose it—lose his own soul? (psuche) or what shall he give in exchange for his soul (psuche)? Matthew 16:25 & 26.

Life means soul that's all...not complicated....even the simple can understand it.

F2F

Your air-breathing soul is flesh and blood only.

You make the air of this world a soul, that is shared by all breathing creatures on earth.

That is pagan spiritism.

 

[face2face]

Your air-breathing soul is flesh and blood only.

You make the air of this world a soul, that is shared by all breathing creatures on earth.

That is pagan spiritism.

You have no advantage over the animals robert except one vital feature - your mind can reason morally upon the word of God - that's it! The Scripture goes no further, though you would want it to be more.
F2F

 

[robert derrick]

You have no advantage over the animals robert except one vital feature - your mind can reason morally upon the word of God - that's it! The Scripture goes no further, though you would want it to be more.
F2F

So you say for yourself. And here we have the unthankfulness of the natural man.

While the natural man understands that he can reason, imagine, and think on good and evil, unlike all other living creatures on earth, he does not acknowledge that is the very spiritual nature and eternal image of Christ, that his soul is made for.

We are eternal spiritual beings, called the soul, created by Christ in the lowest parts of the earth, and lightened with His reasoning and conviction of conscience coming into the world in mortal flesh.

To relegate this eternal power and gift of creation by Christ, to flesh and blood only, is the natural man taking it for granted. And the natural theologian giving lip-service to it.

Your wish to extinguish the reasoning mind of Christ in man, in order to do away with a tormenting hell, is proof that you hold no thankfulness nor value for it.

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”

 

[robert derrick]

You have no advantage over the animals robert except one vital feature - your mind can reason morally upon the word of God - that's it! The Scripture goes no further, though you would want it to be more.
F2F

Since your not going to address my challenges specifically, then there's nothing more to discuss.

Thanks.

 

[robert derrick]

More proof that the soul of man is spiritually eternal created by Christ:

“For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:”

We have the mind of the immortal Kind Jesus Christ now: The mind of Christ we have is eternal.

Those who say the souls of the saints cease to exist when the body dies, are saying that their mind of the eternal King ceases to exist.

The wish for the spiritual mind of man to be extinguished, in order to do away with a tormenting hell, shows no regard for the gift of the eternal mind of Christ.

But, that's the case with all natural men and theologians.

 

[robert derrick]

More proof that the soul is eternal now:

“And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.”

“These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

Eternal life is now given to the soul in mortal bodies, not later with the resurrection of the body.

We either are given and have eternal life in us now in this life, or never.

“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”

Those who say they have not eternal life in them now, simply acknowledge they are the natural man that knows not God, nor Jesus Christ, nor His spirit.

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”

The natural man does not receive the things of the eternal Spirit, and so has no understanding of the eternal life of Jesus Christ in them.

 

[face2face]

Since your not going to address my challenges specifically, then there's nothing more to discuss.

Thanks.

Show me in the Bible a disembodied immortal essence which has awareness of its existence.
I mean, if you truly believe this to be true show me. The Bible should be littered with examples yeah? If every person is said to have this immortality then you should have no problem in proving its existence.
Otherwise, cease from teaching it!
F2F

 

[face2face]

So you say for yourself. And here we have the unthankfulness of the natural man.

No, very thankful actually.

While the natural man understands that he can reason, imagine, and think on good and evil, unlike all other living creatures on earth, he does not acknowledge that is the very spiritual nature and eternal image of Christ, that his soul is made for.

Where in the Bible is this spiritual nature taught? These are just your words...that's all.

We are eternal spiritual beings, called the soul, created by Christ in the lowest parts of the earth, and lightened with His reasoning and conviction of conscience coming into the world in mortal flesh.

No our hope is eternal - the divine nature "put on" is eternal but nothing in our flesh...and I mean nothing is worthy of saving! "In my flesh is no good thing!"

To relegate this eternal power and gift of creation by Christ, to flesh and blood only, is the natural man taking it for granted. And the natural theologian giving lip-service to it.

This is extremely weak robert! Where is your evidence!

Your wish to extinguish the reasoning mind of Christ in man, in order to do away with a tormenting hell, is proof that you hold no thankfulness nor value for it.

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”

Yeah, the conclusion of the matter - merely the words of a man who has fabricated an alternate reality other than the one the Bible teaches.

A souls the sins die
A soul can eat
A soul can be eaten by worms
A soul can sleep
A soul can make up lies and teach than as you are above with no evidence mind you.

But nowhere is the soul immortal.
F2F

 

[robert derrick]

Show me in the Bible a disembodied immortal essence which has awareness of its existence.
I mean, if you truly believe this to be true show me. The Bible should be littered with examples yeah? If every person is said to have this immortality then you should have no problem in proving its existence.
Otherwise, cease from teaching it!
F2F

I've already addressed this before.

 

[robert derrick]

No our hope is eternal - the divine nature "put on" is eternal but nothing in our flesh...and I mean nothing is worthy of saving! "In my flesh is no good thing!"



F2F

No one has ever suggested mortal flesh and blood in this life has anything immortal nor eternal nor divine in nature about it.

This is new from you. What do you mean the eternal divine nature is now 'put on'? I'd like to hear it.

 

[face2face]

No one has ever suggested mortal flesh and blood in this life has anything immortal nor eternal nor divine in nature about it.

This is new from you. What do you mean the eternal divine nature is now 'put on'? I'd like to hear it.

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible (mortal nature) must put on incorruption (divine nature), and this mortal must put on immortality.

Paul is using the terms mortal and corruptible to mean the same thing i.e flesh corupts to dust completely!

54 So when this corruptible (mortal) shall have put on incorruption (divine nature), and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

So death is the result of our nature (inhereted) and as a result of sin (Romans 6:23) wages of sin is death. Death = mortality = returning to dust = total cessation of life...hence why the resurrection and "putting on" of divine nature is required.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

So Paul's belief concerning sin's flesh; human nature; death; mortality; returning to dust and the hope of a change in nature is precisely in line with my understanding.

Conclusion, immortality (quality) and eternal life (quantity) speak to the same result - death and mortality is swallowed up when the divine nature is given to a person.

F2F

 

[face2face]

I've already addressed this before.

You might think you have but if you go back you will see those Scriptures have nothing to do with what you are teaching.

 

[robert derrick]

You might think you have but if you go back you will see those Scriptures have nothing to do with what you are teaching.

Now you're on the right track.

All you have to do is show how.

Just saying so, is no better than not addressing it.

I can be corrected by persuasive reasoning. It just helps perfect the teaching, which is all I want.

 

[robert derrick]

So death is the result of our nature (inhereted) and as a result of sin (Romans 6:23) wages of sin is death. Death = mortality = returning to dust = total cessation of life...hence why the resurrection and "putting on" of divine nature is required.

And so, you only speak of putting on Christ Jesus later, not now. You only speak of the resurrection of the body, not of the soul in this life.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

You don't put on Christ and have His eternal life now, by repenting from sinning, but rather wait to have Him put on your body after the grave, which is when it's too late to repent and receive Him and His Spirit.

You must therefore reject having the eternal Spirit of Christ now, else you would have to acknowledge the immortality of the soul now.

These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

You neither have, nor believe it is possible to have, the eternal Spirit and Jesus Christ living within us now, do you?

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

You don't believe this, because you only acknowledge a mortal flesh and blood soul that will die. Therefore, to never die, is impossible, since you reject the eternal spiritual life of the soul in Christ Jesus, that is not dependent on mortal flesh and blood.

You don't believe in being born again sons of God, partaking now of the eternal power and divine nature of the resurrected Christ, do you?

 

[robert derrick]

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

So Paul's belief concerning sin's flesh; human nature; death; mortality; returning to dust and the hope of a change in nature is precisely in line with my understanding.

Conclusion, immortality (quality) and eternal life (quantity) speak to the same result - death and mortality is swallowed up when the divine nature is given to a person.

F2F

No, because you speak only of the mortal body, and cut off the rest of the story:

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul is speaking of the death of the soul, which is the sting of being separated from the life of Christ. The death of the body is not just a sting, but an end in the grave.

It's the soul and spirit of man that obeys the law of Christ with the body: no natural flesh and blood on earth, has a spirit in it's own tissues to obey or disobey anything.

The soul is resurrected unto life and righteousness now, or remains dead in sins and trespasses beyond the grave.

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible (mortal nature) must put on incorruption (divine nature), and this mortal must put on immortality.

Paul is using the terms mortal and corruptible to mean the same thing i.e flesh corupts to dust completely!

True. Naturally so. All natural men can see and know this.

It's only the carnal minded, that rejects a resurrection of the mortal flesh into immortal spiritual bodies.

54 So when this corruptible (mortal) shall have put on incorruption (divine nature), and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

So death is the result of our nature (inhereted) and as a result of sin (Romans 6:23)

There is no birth with sin nature, neither in the soul nor the flesh, but the result of flesh being made mortal by Christ, is the same: death of the mortal body, not by sinning, but by the nature of all flesh on earth, which is mortality.

Death = mortality = returning to dust = total cessation of life...

And so, this is where you insert your mortal soul natural theology.

This is how you teach the soul dying only with the body, and not spiritually before by sinning against God: you believe the mortal body is the body of the soul.

You teach the soul is flesh and blood only: man is a flesh and blood soul.

By your theology, you are only calling the body a soul, instead of just calling the body what it is: a body. Which is what all men do, whether natural or spiritual. You're in between, by calling the body a soul, which is meaningless, since they are the same thing to you. Soul is just another name for body.

You also combine two errors to make a greater error: first that the soul is flesh and blood only, and that all souls are born sinful flesh and blood, by the sinning of Adam.

Hence, your naturalism combined with a sin nature, makes souls bodies born mortal to return to the dust by sinning.

This is why you must reject Jesus Christ as God coming in the flesh, because his flesh and blood soul would have to be immortal, so that he would still be on the earth today, in His born flesh and blood.

However, since you also believe all flesh and blood souls of men only die by sinning, then you cannot believe the man Jesus did not sin at all, because He died like all men in the flesh.

You reject the spiritual truth of Scripture, that souls are not flesh and blood alone, but we are spiritually created living beings temporarily in mortal bodies.

Therefore, when the soul sins, it's the body doing the sinning, so that the soul only dies with the body.

You therefore also reject this Scripture:

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).

Your natural theology would have to say the body of the soul was dead once on earth, while yet walking around. Like some walking dead zombie flick.