Natural Theology of Mortal Souls

[face2face]

And so, you only speak of putting on Christ Jesus later, not now. You only speak of the resurrection of the body, not of the soul in this life.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

You don't put on Christ and have His eternal life now, by repenting from sinning, but rather wait to have Him put on your body after the grave, which is when it's too late to repent and receive Him and His Spirit.

You must therefore reject having the eternal Spirit of Christ now, else you would have to acknowledge the immortality of the soul now.

These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

You neither have, nor believe it is possible to have, the eternal Spirit and Jesus Christ living within us now, do you?

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

You don't believe this, because you only acknowledge a mortal flesh and blood soul that will die. Therefore, to never die, is impossible, since you reject the eternal spiritual life of the soul in Christ Jesus, that is not dependent on mortal flesh and blood.

You don't believe in being born again sons of God, partaking now of the eternal power and divine nature of the resurrected Christ, do you?

Yes, we have the mind of Christ in us (Spirit) but the change to come. Nothing you have said above accounts for anything immortal in man.

 

[face2face]

No, because you speak only of the mortal body, and cut off the rest of the story:

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul is speaking of the death of the soul, which is the sting of being separated from the life of Christ. The death of the body is not just a sting, but an end in the grave.

It's the soul and spirit of man that obeys the law of Christ with the body: no natural flesh and blood on earth, has a spirit in it's own tissues to obey or disobey anything.

The soul is resurrected unto life and righteousness now, or remains dead in sins and trespasses beyond the grave.




True. Naturally so. All natural men can see and know this.

It's only the carnal minded, that rejects a resurrection of the mortal flesh into immortal spiritual bodies.



There is no birth with sin nature, neither in the soul nor the flesh, but the result of flesh being made mortal by Christ, is the same: death of the mortal body, not by sinning, but by the nature of all flesh on earth, which is mortality.




And so, this is where you insert your mortal soul natural theology.

This is how you teach the soul dying only with the body, and not spiritually before by sinning against God: you believe the mortal body is the body of the soul.

You teach the soul is flesh and blood only: man is a flesh and blood soul.

By your theology, you are only calling the body a soul, instead of just calling the body what it is: a body. Which is what all men do, whether natural or spiritual. You're in between, by calling the body a soul, which is meaningless, since they are the same thing to you. Soul is just another name for body.

You also combine two errors to make a greater error: first that the soul is flesh and blood only, and that all souls are born sinful flesh and blood, by the sinning of Adam.

Hence, your naturalism combined with a sin nature, makes souls bodies born mortal to return to the dust by sinning.

This is why you must reject Jesus Christ as God coming in the flesh, because his flesh and blood soul would have to be immortal, so that he would still be on the earth today, in His born flesh and blood.

However, since you also believe all flesh and blood souls of men only die by sinning, then you cannot believe the man Jesus did not sin at all, because He died like all men in the flesh.

You reject the spiritual truth of Scripture, that souls are not flesh and blood alone, but we are spiritually created living beings temporarily in mortal bodies.

Therefore, when the soul sins, it's the body doing the sinning, so that the soul only dies with the body.

You therefore also reject this Scripture:

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).

Your natural theology would have to say the body of the soul was dead once on earth, while yet walking around. Like some walking dead zombie flick.

What's stopping you from gaining truth is your understanding of soul and how a person is constitutionally in Christ.
Those two things are holding you back from the true Gospel.
Amazing really.

 

[robert derrick]

Where in the Bible is this spiritual nature taught? These are just your words...that's all.

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

There is the spiritual man partaking of the divine nature, who knows all souls are created by the Spirit in the lowest parts of the earth.

And then there is the natural man who rejects the Spirit and the spiritual nature of his own soul, to believe and care only for flesh and blood and the natural things of the earth.

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

When speaking of the soul being born of God, the natural man thinks of the womb, because he only minds the things of the flesh.

All natural flesh is born of flesh, and the spiritual soul is born of the Spirit.

 

[robert derrick]

Yes, we have the mind of Christ in us (Spirit) but the change to come. Nothing you have said above accounts for anything immortal in man.

The change to come is the resurrection of the body. The change already made is the born again resurrection of the dead sinning soul, while still in the mortal body.

If we wait to be born of God until after the grave, it will be too late to repent of sinning and believe the gospel of Jesus death, burial, and resurrection.

Nothing you have said above accounts for anything immortal in man.

To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If there is nothing immortal in the sons of God, then neither is Jesus Christ, nor His Spirit, nor His life eternal.

Natural man rejects God and His Spirit. Natural theology rejects having God and His Spirit living within.

 

[face2face]

There is the spiritual man partaking of the divine nature, who knows all souls are created by the Spirit in the lowest parts of the earth.

Where do you get this stuff robert?

 

[face2face]

The change to come is the resurrection of the body. The change already made is the born again resurrection of the dead sinning soul, while still in the mortal body.

This is nowhere found in the Bible robert!

 

[face2face]

When speaking of the soul (life of a person) being born of God, the natural man (soul = life) thinks of the womb, because he only minds the things of the flesh (soul can also mean natural body) .

All natural flesh is born of flesh, and the spiritual soul (life) is born of the Spirit (Word of God).

Okay, so I'll make changes to your post above in red text to show correct Bible teaching

See the issue you have robert?

Soul can be used in many ways...speaking to the natural or spiritual life of a person....but nowhere is it immortal!

Whoso will save his life (psuche) shall lose it—lose his own soul? (psuche) or what shall he give in exchange for his soul (psuche)? Matt. 16:25, 26.

What I'm looking for from you is the ability to use soul in the correct context with the right implied meaning as is used above in Matthew 16:25.

If life and soul are interchangeable which is the case in Matt 16:25 how do you account for losing this life/soul?

F2F

 

[Marvin Christopher Fox]

Yes, we have the mind of Christ in us (Spirit) but the change to come. Nothing you have said above accounts for anything immortal in man.

Our flesh serves the law of death obstructing our will to serve God. If a body that dies were natural then the flesh wouldn't conflict with our will.
Romans 8,
Paul laments ' who will rescue me from this body of death?' How can man yearn to be rescued from a body that dies if a body that lives is unknown?

 

[robert derrick]

This is nowhere found in the Bible robert!

For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Natural man seeks the things below on earth only, and have minds only for earthly things. The spiritual man risen with Christ seeks those things above in the heavenlies.

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

 

[robert derrick]

Okay, so I'll make changes to your post above in red text to show correct Bible teaching

See the issue you have robert?

Soul can be used in many ways...speaking to the natural or spiritual life of a person....but nowhere is it immortal!

Whoso will save his life (psuche) shall lose it—lose his own soul? (psuche) or what shall he give in exchange for his soul (psuche)? Matt. 16:25, 26.

What I'm looking for from you is the ability to use soul in the correct context with the right implied meaning as is used above in Matthew 16:25.

If life and soul are interchangeable which is the case in Matt 16:25 how do you account for losing this life/soul?

F2F

I have no issues, except with those that insert their own natural-minded ideologies into Scripture and teaching of Scripture.

The life of the soul is spiritual. The life of the body is natural.

We lose the sinful life of our own soul, when we crucify that old life on our own cross, and so find eternal life and righteousness in Jesus Christ.

We lose the mortal life of the body, when we depart this world to be in the presence of the Lord.

The spiritual life of the soul and the natural life of the body are not interchangeable: the soul is spiritual only, and the body is flesh only.

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The natural man can't be born again of God, because the only life he acknowledges is his flesh.

That is why natural theologians are not born of God, and deny having the eternal Spirit dwelling in them.

 

[robert derrick]

Our flesh serves the law of death obstructing our will to serve God. If a body that dies were natural then the flesh wouldn't conflict with our will.
Romans 8,
Paul laments ' who will rescue me from this body of death?' How can man yearn to be rescued from a body that dies if a body that lives is unknown?

The body we crucify on the cross, is that body of our old life of sin.

Like the body of work and scholarship over a lifetime.

 

[robert derrick]

Okay, so I'll make changes to your post above in red text to show correct Bible teaching

See the issue you have robert?

Soul can be used in many ways...speaking to the natural or spiritual life of a person....but nowhere is it immortal!

Whoso will save his life (psuche) shall lose it—lose his own soul? (psuche) or what shall he give in exchange for his soul (psuche)? Matt. 16:25, 26.

What I'm looking for from you is the ability to use soul in the correct context with the right implied meaning as is used above in Matthew 16:25.

If life and soul are interchangeable which is the case in Matt 16:25 how do you account for losing this life/soul?

F2F

And so, let's have the end result of your natural theology:

Are you born again of God? Do you have the eternal Spirit of Christ dwelling within you.

 

[face2face]

The life of the soul is spiritual. The life of the body is natural.

How many times must you be told a truth and you ignore it. Soul and body are interchangeable terms. Context robert is everything.

Being born of the Spirit is being hid in Christ constitutionally by baptism and the living abiding Word of God nothing mystical or mysterious about that at all!

You must be inferring notions upon the word "soul" which are not present in the text...that's all it can be.

F2F

 

[face2face]

And so, let's have the end result of your natural theology:

Are you born again of God? Do you have the eternal Spirit of Christ dwelling within you.

Absolutely

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

My Words are Spirit and Life (John 6:63)

But know this...when I die nothing remains at all...I'm in the remembrance of God and Christ till that day!

Heb 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

All still dead...in the grave waiting for the rest to be called!

Acts 2:29 of David also.

Amen!

 

[robert derrick]

Absolutely

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

My Words are Spirit and Life (John 6:63)

But know this...when I die nothing remains at all...I'm in the remembrance of God and Christ till that day!

Heb 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

All still dead...in the grave waiting for the rest to be called!

Acts 2:29 of David also.

Amen!

So you are saying the Lord will leave and forsake you for bodily dying.

You also do not believe Him, that them believing on Him shall never die.

 

[face2face]

So you are saying the Lord will leave and forsake you for bodily dying.

You also do not believe Him, that them believing on Him shall never die.

Absolutely the flesh body has no value to the Lord - none whatsoever as its to be clothed upon with divine nature in the day of his coming.

That death is merely a sleep.

Don't you understand Paul's teaching here?

Hebrews 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us (robert included) so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

All still dead and buried waiting the resurrection!

To the faithful its merely a sleep -

"in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed"

What does that sleep look like in reality robert?

How long will it be for Abraham?

"twinkling of an eye?"

Correct

 

[face2face]

@robert derrick

If I applied your understanding to Hebrews 11 - the onerous would fall on you to explain why Abraham and all the faithful in that chapter are not perfect or received none of what was promised them.

 

[robert derrick]

Absolutely the flesh body has no value to the Lord - none whatsoever as its to be clothed upon with divine nature in the day of his coming.

Honest enough answer.

You are saying the Lord will leave and forsake you for bodily dying.

You also do not believe Him, that them believing on Him shall never die.

Because the only thing of value to you, is your flesh, then you do not value the true eternal riches of the Spirit within the soul.

You're hope is a resurrected body after the grave, without a resurrected soul before the grave.

Hebrews 11:39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us (robert included) so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

All still dead and buried waiting the resurrection!

Their dead bodies are buried still in the grave.

But there is no dead Abraham, because God is the God of the living, not of the dead, and He said He was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, after their bodies were in the grave.

Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Your cease to exist doctrine of dead mortal souls rejects the Scripture. That which does not exist has no God, and God is not the God of that which does not exist.

 

[robert derrick]

@robert derrick

If I applied your understanding to Hebrews 11 - the onerous would fall on you to explain why Abraham and all the faithful in that chapter are not perfect or received none of what was promised them.

Fair enough: I will show by scripture that the promise prophesied to them is the gospel of Jesus Christ, not the resurrection of the dead. And that the righteous souls departed the body are now made perfect in heaven, waiting on the resurrection of their bodies.

1. The promise made to the fathers, which began with Abraham was of the promised Seed, which is Christ, by whom we are born of God:

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I.e. the promise of the gospel of Jesus Christ coming in the flesh, was made to them, but was not fulfilled in their time before His death, burial, and resurrection:

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

The promise of the gospel of Jesus Christ was not recieved by them that prophesied it, until He went and preached to them in captivity in hell, and then led them away captivated to heaven.

2. With the death of the body, now all souls of the saints arrive in the presence of the Lord, being made perfect in spirit and mind, but not yet in body:

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

1. And so, the promise of the good news of being born of Christ, the seed of God, came not to them before Christ came in the flesh.

2. We that are alive and remaining are coming to them that have gone before us, and are already made perfect in heaven:

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Souls at the altar of God in the presence of the Lord are the spirits of just men, that have gone before, made perfect.

Conclusion:

Your error of only valuing flesh and blood, leads you to only consider the resurrection of the body.

You reject the good news of being born of Christ, the seed of God, and our souls that were dead in sins and trespasses, now rise and live again with Him in newness of life.

If the soul is not resurrected and made perfect in Christ Jesus first, then the body will never be made perfect in the resurrection of the dead, but rather unto everlasting shame with both body and soul cast into the lake of fire.

 

[face2face]

Honest enough answer.

You are saying the Lord will leave and forsake you for bodily dying.

You also do not believe Him, that them believing on Him shall never die.

Because the only thing of value to you, is your flesh, then you do not value the true eternal riches of the Spirit within the soul.

You're hope is a resurrected body after the grave, without a resurrected soul before the grave.

Their dead bodies are buried still in the grave.

But there is no dead Abraham, because God is the God of the living, not of the dead, and He said He was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, after their bodies were in the grave.

Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Your cease to exist doctrine of dead mortal souls rejects the Scripture. That which does not exist has no God, and God is not the God of that which does not exist.

Correct.

The Power of the Hope of the Resurrection is in the absolute nature of death. Which is why the Bible speaks of death for the faithful as a sleep.

Basically your theology removes the severity of death in favor of stealing God's immortal essence for reassurance sake.

I get the temptation but its not Bible based doctrine.

F2F